Hatred of PUAs? Why?

[LetalisK]

Why does seduction necessarily have to be a part of the process? What's wrong with finding someone that just "clicks" with you and letting a sexual relationship develop naturally?

Perhaps this says more about me than anything, but I don't see a huge difference between the two. But I also don't believe it's possible to seduce someone that wouldn't otherwise be attracted to you. To me, seduction implies effort beyond what would be your normal every day behavior(ie wearing sexy lingerie, setting up a candelight dinner under the moon, etc). I would still consider it to be developing naturally, even if some work is involved.

Yeah, probably says more about me than anything.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

I suppose one could come up with a lot of theories as to why.

They're jealous: Men who are unsuccessful with women but refuse to try PUA methods because they believe they are misogynistic need to feel better about why they are unsuccessful with women. So the logic becomes "oh sure I could do that stuff, but I'm way too respectful/feminist/against the patriarchy to do that".

They put women on a pedestal: A lot of men (and I've met plenty of them) seem to have this weird perception that women NEVER make bad dating decisions, or at the very least never make dating decisions that might not be conducive to what they claim they are looking for. For them, a woman who sleeps with a guy because he dresses in ridiculous clothing and uses a bunch of techniques he learned at a seminar undermines that idea. It REALLY undermines it further because so many of the PUA techniques are based upon the complete opposite of putting women on a pedestal, so this damages their worldview.

They believe BS about PUAs: I have no doubt there are certain PUAs who advocate extraordinarily questionable methods, but some of the things I've heard about PUAs (especially on websites like Jezebel) are just so far-fetched they'd be hilarious if people didn't believe them. Things like that they promote the use of date rape drugs, physical abuse, blackmail, sexual assault, etc. I'm sure there are folks who fall under the (very broad) category of PUA who do advocate this, but from my time in the community it's most definitely not the norm.

It plays into "social constructs" about men and women that a lot of people despise: Much of PUA teaching is based upon getting guys to approach women, be more confident, be more sexually aggressive, take the reins, etc. This plays into the pretty standard society belief of dating that "men court women, men are the hunters, men make the first move" etc. Some people despise this and see PUA teachings as reinforcing it.

They hate the idea that "just be yourself" doesn't necessarily work: This sort of plays into the 'self esteem' culture that a lot of people buy into, but a lot of people hate the idea that there are certain archetypal personalities women generally find more attractive than others. This spits in the face of the idea a lot of people have of "oh well if you just be yourself then everything will be all right". All of that sounds great on paper, but to pretend that every guy on the planet would have completely equal success with women if they just "be themselves" is well, BS, and PUAs show this. They take guys and train them to behave in a way that is different than "being themselves", and they become much more successful. Now bear in mind I'm not necessarily saying they are happier, just more successful with women in this case.

 

[Compatriot Block]

I sat here and typed two or three angry posts before deleting them. I just want to express a deep disappointment that this is up for discussion at all. Treating relationships or sexual encounters as adversarial is sad and gross.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I can't help but find the whole moral panic about the PUAs a little bizarre, what with things like the Australian government refusing to grant entry to that one guy who was going there to market his masculine wiles (as I recall, correct me if I'm wrong) for example. More than slightly infantilizing towards adult women to take such measures to protect them, don't you think, and from what? Are these guys some kind of magicians? It's like something out of the 19th Century: "A notorious seducer at large, the Delicate Flower of Womanhood under the wickedest of threats!"

IIRC, that particular PUA advocated sexual assault, and had a history of sexual assault himself. Some of PUA stuff might be in a grey area, but he was fairly obvious in what he was. He wasn't refused entry, though, he was asked to leave. The UK refused him entry.

EDIT: As an aside, shortly after that, the same people refused entry to some instagram celebrity who was famous (IIRC) for talking about his assaults on other people (sexual and otherwise).

 

[Thaluikhain]

Seriously, it's not like I can hold courses on how to best commit robberies without consequences either... you're not allowed to give courses in breaking laws.

One wonder what sort of credentials you'd need to hold that course. "I committed a bunch of crimes and was never caught, here's the proof"?

More seriously, though, you might be able to get around that with statutes of limitations.

 

[sageoftruth]

As a number of others have said, negging is the real crime. Attacking a woman's self-esteem is damaging. Wearing makeup and perfume is deceptive, but harmless.

 

[Passive Aggression]

Some people like sex.

Some people want more sex.

Some people pursue sex.

And with all pursuits, there are good and bad ways to go about it, and people who aim to be good at these pursuits call themselves "Pick Up Artists".

I've always found insulting people like that often comes from jealousy. Personally, I'm content and quite secure with my current level of sexual activity and don't really need to belittle others to make myself feel better about it.

 

[Lilani]

I can't help but find the whole moral panic about the PUAs a little bizarre, what with things like the Australian government refusing to grant entry to that one guy who was going there to market his masculine wiles (as I recall, correct me if I'm wrong) for example. More than slightly infantilizing towards adult women to take such measures to protect them, don't you think, and from what? Are these guys some kind of magicians? It's like something out of the 19th Century: "A notorious seducer at large, the Delicate Flower of Womanhood under the wickedest of threats!"

Sure, their shtick can get tawdry, but the difference to routine interactions is still a matter of degree. People are manipulative. We're better off acknowledging that.

If I recall correctly, the man who was barred entry to a country due to his pick-up tactics had posted videos of himself groping women whose language he didn't speak on public transit systems and admitting to getting women drunk in order to sleep with them. What he did was beyond even typical (though still reprehensible) pick-up tactics and went into straight-up sexual assault.

 

[blackrave]

WTF! You have some problems their buddy! but seriously don't start with the evopsych crap your problems are not "male Instincts".

Although I already came to answers regarding my initial question, I'll respond anyway.
1.Yes I have issues (it would be dishonest not to admit it)
2.My first post dealt with legality of being an asshole. NOT that I support assholes.
3.Since when basic sex drive is something arguable? It is area of psychology, not evolutionary psychology. Or are you implying that psychology is "crap" as well?
4.Evolutionary psychology, while flawed and occasionally suffering from tunnel vision, is definitely NOT "crap". Notion that during evolution of our species our instincts developed certain patterns isn't something laughably unrealistic. It should be given more research in the future.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Ugh. Given what these supposed methods involve, (as far as I've heard of them) ugh.

Seriously, if your tactic for getting laid is to go find the most emotionally vulnerable, easy to manipulate girl you can, and then use abusive and overbearing behaviour to pressure her into going along with whatever it is you want to do...
That's... Sick.

That is what makes people worry about what PUA's... often seem to be trying to push.
The hyper-agressive borderline rapist kind of mentality, that mainly works because you look for someone that ends up being too scared to openly say how they felt about what you did... >_>

Yeah, no. I don't think so.

 

[Politrukk]

They say they hate it because they fall for it every damn time (yeah yeah gross generalisation sorry).

As someone stated in this thread before me, it disproves the fact that women are going for prince charming and sort of reveals their 50 shades of shallowness and creep just as much as the concept of the PUA does that for men.

Anyway isn't the opposite of this called "The honey trap" or "The Gold Digger"

Women have similar stereotypical no-nonsense baddies in their ranks but they have different targets in mind.

To make my probably very misogynistic sounding post even worse I'll end it with this gem :

Men think with their penis.
Women think with their purse.

 

[Bat Vader]

Point me to a video where a woman is actively harassing men, forcing herself on them, using their insecurities against them to make herself seem more appealing and then teaching other women how to do that as a positive thing and then get back to me.

Most make-up videos?
I don't find them to be much better than what PUAs are doing.

Except the people in make-up videos aren't out there trying to manipulate others into getting with them. PUAs on the other hand are. If someone has to manipulate someone else just to date them perhaps that person doesn't deserve to have a relationship.

 

[Zeljkia the Orc]

Point me to a video where a woman is actively harassing men, forcing herself on them, using their insecurities against them to make herself seem more appealing and then teaching other women how to do that as a positive thing and then get back to me.

It's called Girl Talk, us women are notorious for it. Always doing it while we are at the salon, shopping, on gaming forums, visiting our parents for the summer, pratically any time we are not in the same room with men.

But on a serious note, Women do the same things as PuA's, it's really easy for us however. Who would you be more interested in talking to? a greased up guy who you can tell after the first five words he says he wants in your pants, or the woman who is sitting by herself listening to the band that looks like she got dressed up for the night?

Women do the same things ans PuA's, but we are subtle about it.

 

[Muspelheim]

The core attitude in some PuA "techniques" is the problem, and deserves to be despised.

"People around me are there to be used up, and I know how to trick them into letting me use them".

If you see people as props you can use to do sex (or bottles to be drained, wallets to be emptied), then you are a selfish swine. Or sow, for that part. It's about the difference between seeing other people as people, with their own integrity, rather than just things to be "used".

I suppose a lot of flirting and cooing could be called Pick-Up Techniques when you get really down to it, but it's the attitude that matters. It should be about both, not just you.

And honestly, if someone needs to resort to careful psycological manipulation and misinformation to get some, then that person is likely rather awful to be around. The time spent on PuA-forums would be better spent at some fucking elementary self-improvement. You know who you are.