I never hated Hawkeye. I just enjoyed reading about how real archers were laughing at him and his double arm guards.
Hawkeye
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That's a complicated legal issue. Back before Marvel had their own movie studio, they sold the rights to make movies out of their characters to Fox and Sony. As such they couldn't put Arachno-dude or the Y-People in the Marvel Cinematic universe.Wintermute said:
People seem to hate on him because he's a normal guy on a team with Gods, Super-Soldiers, and radioactive rage monsters, but I personally like him more than Black Widow (skin tight leather suit on Johansson notwithstanding).
Hawkeye might not have any powers, but at least he has a comic-book like theme of being a guy in modern times who uses a bow and arrow complete with multiple different arrowheads with a wide variety of functions. What's Black Widow's comic book schtick? "I'm a hot spy who's good with guns".
Seems like Hawkeye has more of a reason for being there than she does.
Hawkeye might not have any powers, but at least he has a comic-book like theme of being a guy in modern times who uses a bow and arrow complete with multiple different arrowheads with a wide variety of functions. What's Black Widow's comic book schtick? "I'm a hot spy who's good with guns".
Seems like Hawkeye has more of a reason for being there than she does.
Because Hawkeye is like 1/12th of a superhero team, didn't get his own movie or even a slightly bigger role than "eyes in the sky" until AoU. Batman on the other hand is one of the most iconic superheroes ever, has about 10 movies, 3 live action TV shows, and 6 cartoons to himself.
I do like him though, I have a massive archery boner, and Jeremy Renner is one of my favorite actors for some reason. Definitely a better actor than Johanssen. I was kinda hoping he would have more interesting arrows in AoU, but oh well. His role in the movie was pretty good, albeit the only thing he could do.
I do like him though, I have a massive archery boner, and Jeremy Renner is one of my favorite actors for some reason. Definitely a better actor than Johanssen. I was kinda hoping he would have more interesting arrows in AoU, but oh well. His role in the movie was pretty good, albeit the only thing he could do.
Rule of cool? Batman's the cooler character overall.
Or maybe people like the Canon Sue element.
Or maybe people like the Canon Sue element.
Cap being there I suspect is part of the reason Hawkeye's seen as redundant. They're both the "everyman", and both the "regular(ish" guy fighting alongside vastly more powerful dudes that keeps things grounded. Cap has better leadership skills though, and more character-depth by virtue of having his own film for people to pick him out of the two.WolfThomas said:
Yeah, but if that's the case, why not bring some other SHIELD agent? Like, why not bring a spec ops team with assault rifles? Sure, TWS asspulled a massive SHIELD conspiracy, which was dumb as hell, but surely there's some trustworthy people. Why are Fury, Hill, Barton, and Romanov trustworthy, they were all SHIELD members, before Cap came along. We've seen that SHIELD has them, and Cap's worked with them. Barton's got a nice multi-purpose bow, why not mass produce it? It's not as expensive as an Iron Man suit. Why not put Barton in an Iron Man suit? He'd be way more useful. Same with Black Widow, who I think is probably more useless. Her weapons are BDSM-fu, pistols, and sometimes some form of taser. Barton's explosive arrows are way more useful. Widow doesn't even go undercover, or do any spy stuff. Her only significant ability seems to be un-brainwashing Barton, and then she picked up "calming down the Hulk" before the second film.WolfThomas said:
Cap at least has the shield, and has superhuman abilities, and is the supposed "heart" of the team (Which is why he spends every film arguing and starting shit, my favourite one was where he went dumb jock on Stark in the first film. Screw you Cap, you wanna talk laying down on a wire, Stark got crushed in a turbine for you guys, and you couldn't even take a little gunfire to engage the clutch, and then flew through a wormhole with a nuclear missile. Fuck you Cap).
Still, Hawkeye's little speech to Scarlet Witch in AoU was awesome. I'm happy with his usefulness, since his usefulness gave us that.
Haha, well if "Agents of Shield" taught me anything, it's that everyone on both SHIELD and HYDRA are completely worthless for anything except getting killed unless they are considered by the writers to be a major character. And if you do want to die, the best way to do it is to wear body armor and carry something bigger than a pistol, because apparently that's instant deathLoonyyy said:
1. In the Avengers if you remember, the World Security Council was cock-blocking Nick Fury preventing him from deploying and then sent the nuke (and considering at least one of them is a revealed Hydra agent, that nuke is suddenly even more suss). Technically Hawkeye and Black Widow were rogue. From a doylist perspective, those two characters have been comic book avengers for multiple decades, nameless mooks not so much.Loonyyy said:
2. The bow in itself is not an especially deadly weapon, it's Barton's skill with it. It makes sense to have one guy specialised in an old fashion weapon to a crazy degree, but not to train all the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents who can use guns. Again because Hawkeye has been using a bow for decades in comics, it's an Avenger thing.
3. Tony Stark doesn't share, that was clearly established. Then at that point he only had a handful of suits and it was an emergency. He has no time to customise them suits and train them with them. By Age of Ultron, yeah he might have, but the team had a lot of fire power already. Those two add flexibility. Again Doylist answer, they don't use suits in comics (except in Ultimate but yeah...)
4. Remember that Loki's Sceptor aka the Mind Gem was affecting everyone. Cap isn't normally such a dick.
I couldn't get into Agents. Sounds like they've got a case of Gears of War syndrome there. Poor Carmine.Ihateregistering1 said:Haha, well if "Agents of Shield" taught me anything, it's that everyone on both SHIELD and HYDRA are completely worthless for anything except getting killed unless they are considered by the writers to be a major character. And if you do want to die, the best way to do it is to wear body armor and carry something bigger than a pistol, because apparently that's instant deathLoonyyy said:
I get that, but the films introduce them as the same as mooks. Hawkeye is Agent Barton, and while he's singled out as special in Thor and the start of The Avengers, he never has any established credibility as a hero. He's only there because Loki saw something in his heart, and Romanov wanted to save him. Romanov's introduction is possibly even weaker. She's an undercover operative, as established in Iron Man 2, and the opening of The Avengers, but then she's needed to recruit Banner, who has no reason to trust her, and as she's a murderer, and a part of the military industrial complex, he has no reason to trust her. The only thing that carries that is their chemistry.WolfThomas said:
Why didn't anyone else go rogue? Why isn't anyone else useful? There's a group of New York cops, and surely more in the city, who Cap briefly orders around. Why aren't they joining in? Surely they're more useful than Widow's taser and what looks like Makorov pistols. A dozen cops would be way more useful. The films are trying to have their cake and eat it too, introduce these non-powered heroes, with some form of "realism", but at the same time, have them play on the same field as a God, an unstoppable monster, a man with more money than god, and a suit that does whatever the plot wants, and the peak of human conditioning and human character. Even Cap's pushing it, but he's a lot more handwaveable than, that dude we saw for a couple of minutes who likes bows, and that chick who's action scenes are awkward to watch with other people around.
Come on, we're just drawing out fridge logic here. Like the above, it's all just pretense to get these characters together. It doesn't matter that sending Romanov to Banner is ridiculous. It doesn't matter what excuses we can make for why the bow is there. It's just about getting these goofs together, to have some fun.
Obviously the bow is not a very deadly weapon. Even in Barton's hands. It's got extremely limited ammo, suffers greatly from windage and drop, has a much more limited range than a gun, has less penetration, does less damage. It's not a case of special training, a gun just dramatically outclasses a bow. It doesn't make any sense at all. What it is, is that Hawkeye is a comic book character, and they're made to be cool. Bows are cool. So we have a bow powered superhero. That's fun. It's silly, and it's fun. It defies any sort of logic or reason, but it's fun.
Come on, again, it's just more reaching. The point here is that one of these things is not like the others. One of these things does not belong. We've got a guy with a laser that can cut through just about anything, flight, robo-strength, and nifty missiles and repulsors.
Yeah, he doesn't like to share, in particular, when Rhodes steals his armour, and when the US tries to take it from him. I think millions of aliens raining from a hole in the sky to annihilate the human race might be a different question
They don't add flexibility. They don't add power.
Hawkeye has, and I repeat: A bow. Which can change arrowheads. The only neat thing about it is that, that it works as a grappling hook, and has explosives.
They're fun characters, and they're there for fun. There is no logic that mandates their inclusion. The film is just good enough that you don't notice it while you're watching it.
For some reason, everyone else managed to not be a complete dick.
I don't know what it is about those movies, but Cap doesn't come across well. I loved his first film, especially his character, wasn't too hot on the second, but in the Avengers, he's always my least favourite character. Tony didn't come across as such an asshole, Banner didn't, none of them did. Our supposed nice guy turned into a bully at a moment's notice, and he was completely wrong. Stark showed that he would make the sacrifice play, and Cap showed that he wouldn't. Cap says he doesn't want to kill anyone, he just doesn't like bullies. His character in the Avengers is mostly bully, Stark shows more humanity towards Banner, and that's probably the best relationship in the film. In TWS, Cap's just cool with killing mooks left right and center. That openning, ew.
It's all excuses. Hawkeye's there because they wanted to put Hawkeye on the screen. He's a regular in the Avengers. Same with Widow. They're comic book characters. They don't make sense. They're there because of rule of cool. Skintight catsuits? Cool. Bows and arrows? Cool. Bows with gadgets? Cool. It doesn't need arguing for, it's just ridiculous. The movies work for the most part when you're watching them, and poking holes in them afterwards is entertaining.
And again, Hawkeye's ridiculousness leads to his best moment in AoU, when he gives a speech to Scarlet Witch, which is overall an awesome sequence.
I'm not really sure why you're so hard on Steve. He was under the influence of a magic gem and was in an argument with a guy who has a reputation for being an insufferable jackass (note how Banner is the only person Tony is really all that nice to in the Avengers and even then he thought it was a good idea to tase him). He never killed anyone in the TWS who wasn't trying to kill him or innocent people so I don't see why that is relevant.Loonyyy said:I couldn't get into Agents. Sounds like they've got a case of Gears of War syndrome there. Poor Carmine.Ihateregistering1 said:Haha, well if "Agents of Shield" taught me anything, it's that everyone on both SHIELD and HYDRA are completely worthless for anything except getting killed unless they are considered by the writers to be a major character. And if you do want to die, the best way to do it is to wear body armor and carry something bigger than a pistol, because apparently that's instant deathLoonyyy said:
I get that, but the films introduce them as the same as mooks. Hawkeye is Agent Barton, and while he's singled out as special in Thor and the start of The Avengers, he never has any established credibility as a hero. He's only there because Loki saw something in his heart, and Romanov wanted to save him. Romanov's introduction is possibly even weaker. She's an undercover operative, as established in Iron Man 2, and the opening of The Avengers, but then she's needed to recruit Banner, who has no reason to trust her, and as she's a murderer, and a part of the military industrial complex, he has no reason to trust her. The only thing that carries that is their chemistry.WolfThomas said:
Why didn't anyone else go rogue? Why isn't anyone else useful? There's a group of New York cops, and surely more in the city, who Cap briefly orders around. Why aren't they joining in? Surely they're more useful than Widow's taser and what looks like Makorov pistols. A dozen cops would be way more useful. The films are trying to have their cake and eat it too, introduce these non-powered heroes, with some form of "realism", but at the same time, have them play on the same field as a God, an unstoppable monster, a man with more money than god, and a suit that does whatever the plot wants, and the peak of human conditioning and human character. Even Cap's pushing it, but he's a lot more handwaveable than, that dude we saw for a couple of minutes who likes bows, and that chick who's action scenes are awkward to watch with other people around.
Come on, we're just drawing out fridge logic here. Like the above, it's all just pretense to get these characters together. It doesn't matter that sending Romanov to Banner is ridiculous. It doesn't matter what excuses we can make for why the bow is there. It's just about getting these goofs together, to have some fun.
Obviously the bow is not a very deadly weapon. Even in Barton's hands. It's got extremely limited ammo, suffers greatly from windage and drop, has a much more limited range than a gun, has less penetration, does less damage. It's not a case of special training, a gun just dramatically outclasses a bow. It doesn't make any sense at all. What it is, is that Hawkeye is a comic book character, and they're made to be cool. Bows are cool. So we have a bow powered superhero. That's fun. It's silly, and it's fun. It defies any sort of logic or reason, but it's fun.
Come on, again, it's just more reaching. The point here is that one of these things is not like the others. One of these things does not belong. We've got a guy with a laser that can cut through just about anything, flight, robo-strength, and nifty missiles and repulsors.
Yeah, he doesn't like to share, in particular, when Rhodes steals his armour, and when the US tries to take it from him. I think millions of aliens raining from a hole in the sky to annihilate the human race might be a different question
They don't add flexibility. They don't add power.
Hawkeye has, and I repeat: A bow. Which can change arrowheads. The only neat thing about it is that, that it works as a grappling hook, and has explosives.
They're fun characters, and they're there for fun. There is no logic that mandates their inclusion. The film is just good enough that you don't notice it while you're watching it.
For some reason, everyone else managed to not be a complete dick.
I don't know what it is about those movies, but Cap doesn't come across well. I loved his first film, especially his character, wasn't too hot on the second, but in the Avengers, he's always my least favourite character. Tony didn't come across as such an asshole, Banner didn't, none of them did. Our supposed nice guy turned into a bully at a moment's notice, and he was completely wrong. Stark showed that he would make the sacrifice play, and Cap showed that he wouldn't. Cap says he doesn't want to kill anyone, he just doesn't like bullies. His character in the Avengers is mostly bully, Stark shows more humanity towards Banner, and that's probably the best relationship in the film. In TWS, Cap's just cool with killing mooks left right and center. That openning, ew.
It's all excuses. Hawkeye's there because they wanted to put Hawkeye on the screen. He's a regular in the Avengers. Same with Widow. They're comic book characters. They don't make sense. They're there because of rule of cool. Skintight catsuits? Cool. Bows and arrows? Cool. Bows with gadgets? Cool. It doesn't need arguing for, it's just ridiculous. The movies work for the most part when you're watching them, and poking holes in them afterwards is entertaining.
And again, Hawkeye's ridiculousness leads to his best moment in AoU, when he gives a speech to Scarlet Witch, which is overall an awesome sequence.
And at least Hawkeye and Widow are trained professionals. Look at the rest of the team sans Steve; An impulsive prince who almost started a war; a guy who transforms into a green giant when angry; and a narcissistic billionaire with alcoholism and daddy issues.
Him and Black Widow weren't supposed to be in it, apparently it was supposed to be Ant Man and the Wasp.