I'd ask what kind of personality does your father have, and tailor your suggestion around that. If he's uninterested in the content he'll never be engaged.
Help me defend us!
- Thread starter MrGalactus
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The problem with video game stories is that you need to play the game to get to the story, which is a problem because non gamers can't play video games. Any game that is complex enough to prove your point will inevitably be too difficult for him to play. Video games are interactive by their nature and if he is unable to enjoy that interaction he will never appreciate video games. Video games, by their interactive nature, are far deeper and harder to comprehend than a book or movie. You need to earn that comprehension, and he has not.
Right now your dad has a set view point and he is sure you are wrong. He will never accept your argument until you are able to challenge his current perception of reality. You need to convince him of the inherent value of a game vs other media.
1. The first thing to do is tell him that in order to get your point across, you will need some time an hour or so, and you will be able to begin showing why games have value. Explain to him that you need this time because video games have a high barrier to entry because they are often created by different cultures and require highly developed skills to play.
1a. If he challenges this, pick a non violent and simple competitive game and challenge him to compare skills. Geometry wars 2 is great for this. The controls are very simpl, you only need the demo, and it is impossible to miss the point. Explain to him that you are going to prove that games require special skills and challenge him to a match. He will play a 3 minute match, and then you will play a 3 minute match. You will destroy him. Explain that this happened because you are better at games. It works even better if you have never played the game before.
1b. Tell him that you are now going to explain the primary aspect of video games as a game.
2. If your father is a sports nut, that is a really good place to start. Bring up his favorite sport. Lets say for arguments sake it is American football (my father's favorite sport.) Ask him why football is a good sport. He will tell you about teamwork, skill development, complex strategy, etc. Then ask him why watching football is an acceptable pastime. Point out that by watching football he is not reaping the benefits of playing the sport but using all the time that it would take to play the sport. Point out that it is only a game, after all, and really isn't that important.
2a. Challenge him to justify spectating professional sports. This will challenge his current perceptions, opening him to new ideas. Never be aggressive or confrontational and if he gets defensive point out that this is a hypothetical discussion, that you already understand why he values sports. Never attack his favorite things but don't let him derail the conversation.
2b. Next, you should compare video games to sports. Both require skill sets. Both require knowledge, both put us up against difficult challenges and require us to overcome. The primary difference between a video game and a sport is that one is primarily mental and the other is primarily physical.
Tell him to keep this in mind and that you will come back to this, but now you are going to move into the second aspect of video games, interactive story telling.
3. Chances are you have a pile of games around. Choose 3 or 4 out of them that have strong stories. Give your dad a short 1-2 sentence explaining the basic story of each with emphasis on the role of the player in these games. For example:
Bioshock is a game about a man who tried to create a utopian society which then fell under the weight of its own corruption. You explore the ruins of this society, piecing together how it all went so wrong.
Metal Gear Solid 4 is about a soldier who has fought all his life to avert world wide nuclear disaster. You take the role of the aging soldier who hates war in a world where war has become routine and impossible to avoid.
Fallout is about a hypothetical nuclear war that left the earth a desolate wasteland. In this game you take the role of a person struggling for survival in a desolate and cruel world.
Mass Effect is a science fiction space opera, like star wars, where we take the role a man desperately attempting to protect billions from a genocidal alien threat.
Make sure to throw in a few not violent games, such as:
Phoenix Wright, Ace Attorney is a comedy drama where you take the role of an attorney who protects the innocent from false accusations of murder.
You get the idea. pick the games before hand. Explain to him that not all games have this value, but many do.
3a Now tell him that the reason video games have unique narrative value is because they let us experience the story. In a movie we can see Mad Max explore a desolate wasteland, but in Fallout we explore that wasteland ourselves.
4. Show him the opening of one of the strong narrative games you showed him earlier. Make sure it is one with a strong opening cut scene, violence is not glorified, and is not Japanese made unless it is Metal Gear Solid 4. Not Half Life 1, 2, or Portal. Show him only the opening, don't let him get into actual game play.
4a. If you have Bioshock it is a great one to do. Let him control it if it is Bioshock. right up to the point where atlas first calls you on the radio. Don't let him go any further!
4b. Point out music, narrative themes that are introduced, etc.
5. Next, explain that you are going to show him how game designers view games. Explain that the video's you are about to show him were made by videogame designers to show the average joe how video games can have narritive value and why this narritive value is unique to interactive media. Show him these 2 video's.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/1974-Enriching-Lives
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2545-Narrative-Mechanics
Make sure you have them ready to play before this point so you only have to press play and you are in the video. The last thing you want here is an advertisement for duke Nukem to get in the way or for video lag to lessen the impact of these video's.
6. Tell your dad that now that he has the proper background to understand video games and interactive narrative, it is time to play a game. Portal 1 is our game of choice here, and it really needs to be portal 1. He will play the game, if only for a half hour or so. Explain to him that the game is a dark humor science fiction in which the player is in the place of a human lab rat at the mercy of an insane artificial intelligence. Before he starts, tell him that this is a pretty complicated puzzle game and that if he needs any help you would be more than willing. Stay with him while he plays. Show him by example that even a single player game can be a shared experience.
If nothing else, this should help your dad understand the value of interactive narrative. If you want, offer to play games with him, parents like to spend time with their kids.
The problem with video game stories is that you need to play the game to get to the story, which is a problem because non gamers can't play video games. Any game that is complex enough to prove your point will inevitably be too difficult for him to play. Video games are interactive by their nature and if he is unable to enjoy that interaction he will never appreciate video games. Video games, by their interactive nature, are far deeper and harder to comprehend than a book or movie. You need to earn that comprehension, and he has not.
Right now your dad has a set view point and he is sure you are wrong. He will never accept your argument until you are able to challenge his current perception of reality. You need to convince him of the inherent value of a game vs other media.
1. The first thing to do is tell him that in order to get your point across, you will need some time an hour or so, and you will be able to begin showing why games have value. Explain to him that you need this time because video games have a high barrier to entry because they are often created by different cultures and require highly developed skills to play.
1a. If he challenges this, pick a non violent and simple competitive game and challenge him to compare skills. Geometry wars 2 is great for this. The controls are very simpl, you only need the demo, and it is impossible to miss the point. Explain to him that you are going to prove that games require special skills and challenge him to a match. He will play a 3 minute match, and then you will play a 3 minute match. You will destroy him. Explain that this happened because you are better at games. It works even better if you have never played the game before.
1b. Tell him that you are now going to explain the primary aspect of video games as a game.
2. If your father is a sports nut, that is a really good place to start. Bring up his favorite sport. Lets say for arguments sake it is American football (my father's favorite sport.) Ask him why football is a good sport. He will tell you about teamwork, skill development, complex strategy, etc. Then ask him why watching football is an acceptable pastime. Point out that by watching football he is not reaping the benefits of playing the sport but using all the time that it would take to play the sport. Point out that it is only a game, after all, and really isn't that important.
2a. Challenge him to justify spectating professional sports. This will challenge his current perceptions, opening him to new ideas. Never be aggressive or confrontational and if he gets defensive point out that this is a hypothetical discussion, that you already understand why he values sports. Never attack his favorite things but don't let him derail the conversation.
2b. Next, you should compare video games to sports. Both require skill sets. Both require knowledge, both put us up against difficult challenges and require us to overcome. The primary difference between a video game and a sport is that one is primarily mental and the other is primarily physical.
Tell him to keep this in mind and that you will come back to this, but now you are going to move into the second aspect of video games, interactive story telling.
3. Chances are you have a pile of games around. Choose 3 or 4 out of them that have strong stories. Give your dad a short 1-2 sentence explaining the basic story of each with emphasis on the role of the player in these games. For example:
Bioshock is a game about a man who tried to create a utopian society which then fell under the weight of its own corruption. You explore the ruins of this society, piecing together how it all went so wrong.
Metal Gear Solid 4 is about a soldier who has fought all his life to avert world wide nuclear disaster. You take the role of the aging soldier who hates war in a world where war has become routine and impossible to avoid.
Fallout is about a hypothetical nuclear war that left the earth a desolate wasteland. In this game you take the role of a person struggling for survival in a desolate and cruel world.
Mass Effect is a science fiction space opera, like star wars, where we take the role a man desperately attempting to protect billions from a genocidal alien threat.
Make sure to throw in a few not violent games, such as:
Phoenix Wright, Ace Attorney is a comedy drama where you take the role of an attorney who protects the innocent from false accusations of murder.
You get the idea. pick the games before hand. Explain to him that not all games have this value, but many do.
3a Now tell him that the reason video games have unique narrative value is because they let us experience the story. In a movie we can see Mad Max explore a desolate wasteland, but in Fallout we explore that wasteland ourselves.
4. Show him the opening of one of the strong narrative games you showed him earlier. Make sure it is one with a strong opening cut scene, violence is not glorified, and is not Japanese made unless it is Metal Gear Solid 4. Not Half Life 1, 2, or Portal. Show him only the opening, don't let him get into actual game play.
4a. If you have Bioshock it is a great one to do. Let him control it if it is Bioshock. right up to the point where atlas first calls you on the radio. Don't let him go any further!
4b. Point out music, narrative themes that are introduced, etc.
5. Next, explain that you are going to show him how game designers view games. Explain that the video's you are about to show him were made by videogame designers to show the average joe how video games can have narritive value and why this narritive value is unique to interactive media. Show him these 2 video's.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/1974-Enriching-Lives
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2545-Narrative-Mechanics
Make sure you have them ready to play before this point so you only have to press play and you are in the video. The last thing you want here is an advertisement for duke Nukem to get in the way or for video lag to lessen the impact of these video's.
6. Tell your dad that now that he has the proper background to understand video games and interactive narrative, it is time to play a game. Portal 1 is our game of choice here, and it really needs to be portal 1. He will play the game, if only for a half hour or so. Explain to him that the game is a dark humor science fiction in which the player is in the place of a human lab rat at the mercy of an insane artificial intelligence. Before he starts, tell him that this is a pretty complicated puzzle game and that if he needs any help you would be more than willing. Stay with him while he plays. Show him by example that even a single player game can be a shared experience.
If nothing else, this should help your dad understand the value of interactive narrative. If you want, offer to play games with him, parents like to spend time with their kids.
L.A Noir might be a good choice.
I really like it because I find having to use my brain more than my reflexes for a change to be quite refreshing.
Uncharted 2 might be another good one, especially if he loves a summer blockbuster.
And of course, Portal.
I really like it because I find having to use my brain more than my reflexes for a change to be quite refreshing.
Uncharted 2 might be another good one, especially if he loves a summer blockbuster.
And of course, Portal.
Give him an older 3rd person CRPG.
Planescape: Torment
Arcanum
Fallout
or even an JRPG:
Final Fantasy 1-6
Dragon Warrior 1-4
Chrono Trigger
Breath of Fire 1/2
Most of the 'Tails of' games
There are lots of story heavy JRPGs, many of them are more interactive movies then games, but some are good games.
Don't give him Bio-Shock to convince him that games aren't violent and evil, its unlikely that he would ever see far enough into it to see anything other than 'this is a game where you murder little girls'.
Planescape: Torment
Arcanum
Fallout
or even an JRPG:
Final Fantasy 1-6
Dragon Warrior 1-4
Chrono Trigger
Breath of Fire 1/2
Most of the 'Tails of' games
There are lots of story heavy JRPGs, many of them are more interactive movies then games, but some are good games.
Don't give him Bio-Shock to convince him that games aren't violent and evil, its unlikely that he would ever see far enough into it to see anything other than 'this is a game where you murder little girls'.
Why do people have this need to shove games down the throat of every person they meet who clearly expresses disinterest towards them? I know I would be pretty damn annoyed, and that wouldn't help the gamer's case.
Can't you just tell your dad that since he hasn't played that many games (I'd assume so judging by his attitude) he's in no position to judge them, and maybe point out that the vast majority of books and movies are also just degenerating waste of time? An adult person with any sense would understand that argument, while pushing your own hobbies on people who have no appreciation for them usually doesn't work.
Can't you just tell your dad that since he hasn't played that many games (I'd assume so judging by his attitude) he's in no position to judge them, and maybe point out that the vast majority of books and movies are also just degenerating waste of time? An adult person with any sense would understand that argument, while pushing your own hobbies on people who have no appreciation for them usually doesn't work.
Don't kid yourself, Bioshock is violent shooter pretending to deal with deeper philosophical issues (maybe 5% of game time is spent dealing with these). The basis is killing people and little girls. Not a good place to start if you want to convince someone games aren't violent.Hellsen said:
Btw, I really liked Bioshock, but was disappointed because of its lack of meaningful depth (no pun intended)
Try iFiction - Shade is a good place to start out. It's closer to a short story, so it's a good jumping-off point for people coming from other media. Psychonauts might be pretty good as well if he likes comedy. What's his general opinion on the fantasy genre? If he likes it, try him on Planescape: Torment after telling him it's possible to get through that game without killing anyone.
EDIT: Also, Portal.
EDIT: Also, Portal.
Great games for someone who doesn't understand games... hm.
Minecraft. (end discussion right there)
Phoenix Wright series.
Professor Layton series.
Scribblenauts.
Braid.
Portal/Portal 2.
I would also suggest boning up on Extra Credits [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits]. Particularly: "No Redeeming Value", "Enriching Lives", "Facing Controversy", "Narrative Mechanics", "An Open Letter to EA Marketing", "Ludus Florentis", "Tangential Learning", and "The Myth of the Gun".
Minecraft. (end discussion right there)
Phoenix Wright series.
Professor Layton series.
Scribblenauts.
Braid.
Portal/Portal 2.
I would also suggest boning up on Extra Credits [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits]. Particularly: "No Redeeming Value", "Enriching Lives", "Facing Controversy", "Narrative Mechanics", "An Open Letter to EA Marketing", "Ludus Florentis", "Tangential Learning", and "The Myth of the Gun".
Something with an epic engaging story is going to be the main point really, it's not going to be game play at all that will win this argument.
I suggest FF13, one of my favourite stories in a game with some of my favourite characters as well as the game play not being an issue since he will have little to compare it to, despite personally me loving it a lot of people don't.
Red Dead Redemption is also a fantastic choice, great game play and an amazing story. I have never been truly angry at a fictional villain in a game until the ending of that game.
I suggest FF13, one of my favourite stories in a game with some of my favourite characters as well as the game play not being an issue since he will have little to compare it to, despite personally me loving it a lot of people don't.
Red Dead Redemption is also a fantastic choice, great game play and an amazing story. I have never been truly angry at a fictional villain in a game until the ending of that game.
We had a friendly conversation...He agreed to give it a go.Jonsbax said:
What's the issue?
I'm not really trying to say that games aren't violent, I'm just trying to say that they don't have to be for dummies. Violence is ok, so long as it's not just violence for the sake of violence, like Serious Sam, Left 4 Dead, Saints Row, or whatever.NicolasMarinus said:Don't kid yourself, Bioshock is violent shooter pretending to deal with deeper philosophical issues (maybe 5% of game time is spent dealing with these). The basis is killing people and little girls. Not a good place to start if you want to convince someone games aren't violent.Hellsen said:
Btw, I really liked Bioshock, but was disappointed because of its lack of meaningful depth (no pun intended)
Never played Bioshock myself so I don't really know how it is.
ALSO: You get awesome pun points.
Wow, very impressive! I tip my hat to you fine sir, you certainly are being a good representative by giving up your time and typing your fingers off just to help a fellow gamer!DrOswald said:
Nice one!
Portal.
I really hate to hype that over-advanced sudoku anymore than it already has been, but it really is a great example of how storytelilng can be woven into gameplay, without the use of violence as the defining characteristic of the narrative, and yet still maintains believable conflict.
Also, for a non-gamer, it is short, relatively easy to pick up the controls, and none of the puzzles require a use of the controls beyond most first-time gamers (although some of the puzzles would require a faster use of the analoguse stick than he may be comfortable with)
With an added extra I would say that the best place to start is on consoles. Even putting aside for a moment the issue of which is better (neither) consoles tend to pride themselves on the 'pick up and play' aspects, without having to learn a dictionary's worth of commands and functions. Also, if your father has used computers he may not be used to having to use a system he thinks he is familiar with in such an unfamiliar way.
My dad once asked me something similar, but the games had to be playable on the computer. In the end we gave up because although I could get him started on Halo easily enough, even something simple like Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds was so averse to how he was used to using a mouse and keyboard that he could never unlearn the muscle memory.
I really hate to hype that over-advanced sudoku anymore than it already has been, but it really is a great example of how storytelilng can be woven into gameplay, without the use of violence as the defining characteristic of the narrative, and yet still maintains believable conflict.
Also, for a non-gamer, it is short, relatively easy to pick up the controls, and none of the puzzles require a use of the controls beyond most first-time gamers (although some of the puzzles would require a faster use of the analoguse stick than he may be comfortable with)
With an added extra I would say that the best place to start is on consoles. Even putting aside for a moment the issue of which is better (neither) consoles tend to pride themselves on the 'pick up and play' aspects, without having to learn a dictionary's worth of commands and functions. Also, if your father has used computers he may not be used to having to use a system he thinks he is familiar with in such an unfamiliar way.
My dad once asked me something similar, but the games had to be playable on the computer. In the end we gave up because although I could get him started on Halo easily enough, even something simple like Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds was so averse to how he was used to using a mouse and keyboard that he could never unlearn the muscle memory.
Okay, my bad. I kinda assumed he had a very adamant "games are bad" -view based on how you described his opinion.THEJORRRG said:
To add to the actual topic this time, first of all I'm not sure if it's wise to sell games to people with story, 'cause I frankly think games are the least ideal platform for storytelling. On the other hand, games are far superior to books and movies on creating atmosphere and a sense of immersion to the enviroment and world in the game, and I think those are the things I would try to sell games on to non-gamers.
What I find a bit weird is that you don't want to show your dad Silent Hill -games because they would create too strong feelings, in this case fear. Even if he would play the games only for 15 minutes, the fact that he would be overwhelmed by an emotion created by a game would definitely get the point across that games can affect their players on a deeper level.
After that, I'd recommend Portal like every single person here.
Hey people, if his father sees games as violent, blood filled time wasters, then he should be introduced to gaming gently not straight up red dead, bioshock, mass effect.Those are games that even some gamers haven't bothered trying yet. You don't use games like that to introduce someone to the medium. Let him try a game like LBP or Flower, something simple, something fun and thats it FUN, he shouldn't be given story or puzzle just yet. Show him that games are great fun, after establishing that, you can go to great story and so on.
