Help with my munchkin

[Jitters Caffeine]

I am currently running a 3.5 D&D game, and I am once again having an issue with our group's resident powergaming-munchkin. Our newest issue is that, after a binge of playing Vampire: The Masquerade, he wants to play a vampire. That alone really isn't an issue, the Vampire template is pretty strong, but I can fuck with him pretty easily. But now he's trying to claim it's completely legal to be what he refers to as a "LichPire", which is exactly what you think it is, a Vampire Lich.

I'm trying to find a good way to strike this from even BEGINNING to happen, and I'd prefer to not just say "Fuck you, I'm the DM". Any hard, written in stone rules I could use?


If anyone wants to know, I'm currently using a Paladin 6/ Wizard 3 with the Mystic Fire Knight variant, and the Sword of the Arcane Order feat as the way I can keep the party on track if they have a bad run of luck with rolls or can't figure out a puzzle.

 

[Jimmy T. Malice]

Maybe vampires can't store their souls in an object or whatever liches do because they have no souls.

 

[Vegosiux]

Would take some group effort for this. I mean, if the group as a whole isn't having fun due to his antics, then he needs to be booted, no discussion. If he wants to be a munchkin and make everything about him, he can find another group that will tolerate that.

I've no sympathy, mercy or patience for such obnoxious players.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Maybe vampires can't store their souls in an object or whatever liches do because they have no souls.

I thought of that, he circumvented that by saying he'd go Walker of the Wastes. Which the level 10 ability MAKES you an even more powerful version of a lich. I can rule that one out by saying that being a Walker of the Wastes would PROBABLY mean you wander the desert, which a Vampire would be rather reluctant to do.

Would take some group effort for this. I mean, if the group as a whole isn't having fun due to his antics, then he needs to be booted, no discussion. If he wants to be a munchkin and make everything about him, he can find another group that will tolerate that.

I've no sympathy, mercy or patience for such obnoxious players.

We've had issues with him in the past, but he's almost always very quick to back down when pressed on how he justifies his crazy munchkin bullshit. He's the reason I had to ban races with natural flying because of his ridiculous Raptoran Master Thrower nonsense.

 

[Doom972]

Just be honest with him and tell him that you don't want him to use a build that will ruin the adventure for everyone. You're the DM, and if you say that a race/class/build is going to ruin the adventures you have planned for the group, your players should trust your judgement.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Just be honest with him and tell him that you don't want him to use a build that will ruin the adventure for everyone. You're the DM, and if you say that a race/class/build is going to ruin the adventures you have planned for the group, your players should trust your judgement.

I've pulled that card on him before because of his favor of using very exotic races and shying away from the base races almost entirely, even when they would work better than what he chose. That's kind of why I'd like to find a more conventional ruling to prevent it than just telling him to fuck himself. Originally, he was ALL about Raptorans, and he kept complaining that I was singling him out and handicapping him by having fights indoors or in dense forests. Which you can't ALWAYS blame on me. So I had to ban anything with racial flying. Now he's using a Tiefling, which I'm cool with. He just has this "special, unique snowflake" complex going on.

Hell, I'm not against someone using a silly or unconventional character. One of my favorite characters is the "Tortoise Knight". He's a Paladin with a Dire Tortoise mount. Optimized for max/maxing? God no. But it's fun as hell to play.

 

[Doom972]

Just be honest with him and tell him that you don't want him to use a build that will ruin the adventure for everyone. You're the DM, and if you say that a race/class/build is going to ruin the adventures you have planned for the group, your players should trust your judgement.

I've pulled that card on him before because of his favor of using very exotic races and shying away from the base races almost entirely, even when they would work better than what he chose. That's kind of why I'd like to find a more conventional ruling to prevent it than just telling him to fuck himself. Originally, he was ALL about Raptorans, and he kept complaining that I was singling him out and handicapping him by having fights indoors or in dense forests. Which you can't ALWAYS blame on me. So I had to ban anything with racial flying. Now he's using a Tiefling, which I'm cool with. He just has this "special, unique snowflake" complex going on.

Hell, I'm not against someone using a silly or unconventional character. One of my favorite characters is the "Tortoise Knight". He's a Paladin with a Dire Tortoise mount. Optimized for max/maxing? God no. But it's fun as hell to play.

You know the reason you don't want him to play that build and he knows it, too. IMHO, making up excuses instead of being honest won't help you very much because he'll probably just come up with counter-arguments and small compromises until you either give in or tell him no.
If he has to be a "special, unique snowflake", perhaps you can give his character some role-playing bonuses like a really impressive title that will make some NPCs react favorably to.

 

[DoPo]

First option - talk to him, try to smooth things out that way. Tell him that you're cool with his character being unique, but you want to keep the group cohesive to an extent, hence why you'll limit his options. In fact, you can get this discussion on the gaming table, too. That's the mature way of handling it.

Second option, invoke rule zero - the GM is always right. If you don't want to go outright "No", then go from the RP angle - how the fuck would his character pick up these obscure feats, classes etc? Yeah, they are in the gaming supplements but that doesn't mean they are available for everybody straight from level 1 in every campaign - to get a prestige class you usually have to find somebody to train you to be one. Actually, same with any class - you get free pick in the beginning, but you can't go from fighter to suddenly "lol, I'm a wizard" - you go to the wizard academy for several years (I forget how much) to pick up the cantrips. Well, yeah, you can have it as backstory that your character is a fighter but has been taking evening classes for wizards or something, so eventually you can dual class. However, the backstories are up to the DM to approve. So yeah, play that angle, how does his character become a vampire? Or a lich? How does he get feats X, and Y needed for Z? And most of all, do these even exist in your world? Sure, everybody can get the Psionics Handbook but that doesn't mean you have psionics in your campaign. You don't have to accommodate everybody. Finally, RAW is fine and well, however remember - those are rules as written and the DM always has a final say on them. Always. It's in the description of what a dungeon master is - any rules lawyer conveniently forgets about that rule.

Finally, you can boot him off the campaign. As simple as that. But yeah, I get how it's not actually that simple.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

You know the reason you don't want him to play that build and he knows it, too. IMHO, making up excuses instead of being honest won't help you very much because he'll probably just come up with counter-arguments and small compromises until you either give in or tell him no.
If he has to be a "special, unique snowflake", perhaps you can give his character some role-playing bonuses like a really impressive title that will make some NPCs react favorably to.

The problem is that he prefers to play the "super cool" brooding outcast. Tieflings, Assassins, ect. The kind that don't WANT publicity. That's kind of why he wants to be a vampire. It kind of fits that role. But if it was JUST that, I'd be a little more open to it.

First option - talk to him, try to smooth things out that way. Tell him that you're cool with his character being unique, but you want to keep the group cohesive to an extent, hence why you'll limit his options. In fact, you can get this discussion on the gaming table, too. That's the mature way of handling it.

Second option, invoke rule zero - the GM is always right. If you don't want to go outright "No", then go from the RP angle - how the fuck would his character pick up these obscure feats, classes etc? Yeah, they are in the gaming supplements but that doesn't mean they are available for everybody straight from level 1 in every campaign - to get a prestige class you usually have to find somebody to train you to be one. Actually, same with any class - you get free pick in the beginning, but you can't go from fighter to suddenly "lol, I'm a wizard" - you go to the wizard academy for several years (I forget how much) to pick up the cantrips. Well, yeah, you can have it as backstory that your character is a fighter but has been taking evening classes for wizards or something, so eventually you can dual class. However, the backstories are up to the DM to approve. So yeah, play that angle, how does his character become a vampire? Or a lich? How does he get feats X, and Y needed for Z? And most of all, do these even exist in your world? Sure, everybody can get the Psionics Handbook but that doesn't mean you have psionics in your campaign. You don't have to accommodate everybody. Finally, RAW is fine and well, however remember - those are rules as written and the DM always has a final say on them. Always. It's in the description of what a dungeon master is - any rules lawyer conveniently forgets about that rule.

Finally, you can boot him off the campaign. As simple as that. But yeah, I get how it's not actually that simple.

I've pulled the "no means no" rule on him before when he was trying to play races with natural flying and other races that were just TOO powerful. I'd like to avoid it again. But I don't think it'll be avoidable. I'm generally a pretty permissive DM. I'm the kind who says anything can be possible if you justify it somehow. I had to put my foot down when he was taking level dips in Cleric for no other reason than to have spellcasting and no regard to the fact he was the lines of legality as it was. I've made some strange characters in the past, Paladin/Wizard, Gnome Iaijutsu Master, Cavalier with a Dire Tortoise mount, etc.

Mostly I've been REALLY steadfast on keeping a "2 book rule". You can't use more than 2 books for your character creation in regards to the classes you take. It's really cut down on the crazy powergaming bullshit.

 

[Johnny Impact]

Easy!

1. Vampire and lich are mutually exclusive.
You can't be double undead any more than you can be double alive. If already vampire, cannot become lich. Lichdom requires phylactery with soul. Vampire doesn't have a soul. If already lich, cannot become vampire. Vampire blood only transforms living human flesh, doesn't work on a lich's decayed body.

2. It's about balance.
We all have self-insertion power fantasies with our characters. Right now my Shadowrun character is a physical adept, a parkour master who can bench 200 kilograms, two things I'd very much like to do. That would be unbalanced if the other guys were playing vanilla humans. The thing is, they're not. Everyone else's character has their own ridiculous abilities, so things balance nicely. Munchkins aren't a problem because they want power, they are a problem because they want the most power. The munchkin wants to be best at everything, all the time. This leads to everyone else feeling useless and unwanted.

3. GM calls the shots.
Ultimately the only thing you can do with munchkins who refuse to see reason is lay down the law. YOU run the game.

 

[ThriKreen]

I'd pull an OOTS/Roy Greenhilt and create a nemesis/bounty hunter for his Lichpire that takes into account all his disadvantages which I'm sure he's glossed over. Have the NPC steal the phylactery.

Then you discover it reacts like a vampire too, so he can't regenerate as long as garlic is surrounding the phylactery. Or it reacts to sunlight too, so the NPC has a sense of humour and takes the phylactery to the other side of the world, so the munchkin can only materialize for small durations of the day.

Like the Munchkin card game and the supermunchkin card, has all the advantages AND disadvantages of the classes and racea.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Easy!

1. Vampire and lich are mutually exclusive.
You can't be double undead any more than you can be double alive. If already vampire, cannot become lich. Lichdom requires phylactery with soul. Vampire doesn't have a soul. If already lich, cannot become vampire. Vampire blood only transforms living human flesh, doesn't work on a lich's decayed body.

2. It's about balance.
We all have self-insertion power fantasies with our characters. Right now my Shadowrun character is a physical adept, a parkour master who can bench 200 kilograms, two things I'd very much like to do. That would be unbalanced if the other guys were playing vanilla humans. The thing is, they're not. Everyone else's character has their own ridiculous abilities, so things balance nicely. Munchkins aren't a problem because they want power, they are a problem because they want the most power. The munchkin wants to be best at everything, all the time. This leads to everyone else feeling useless and unwanted.

3. GM calls the shots.
Ultimately the only thing you can do with munchkins who refuse to see reason is lay down the law. YOU run the game.

Our guy is VERY much out for a crazy power grab. The very first character he made, which I shot down almost immediately, was a Raptoran Weapon Thrower. I had to outright ban races with natural flying because he wanted to use his vertical supremacy to charge with Spears.

I can't really say he's the ONLY one using strange and unconventional builds. One person is playing a Druid/Sorcerer with plans to go into Arcane Hierophant. But that being said, it's not things like his Template abuse.

 

[vun]

Am I the only one looking at this because I was expecting cats?

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

I'd pull an OOTS/Roy Greenhilt and create a nemesis/bounty hunter for his Lichpire that takes into account all his disadvantages which I'm sure he's glossed over. Have the NPC steal the phylactery.

Then you discover it reacts like a vampire too, so he can't regenerate as long as garlic is surrounding the phylactery. Or it reacts to sunlight too, so the NPC has a sense of humour and takes the phylactery to the other side of the world, so the munchkin can only materialize for small durations of the day.

Like the Munchkin card game and the supermunchkin card, has all the advantages AND disadvantages of the classes and racea.

I've already said I'd let him keep playing his character SHOULD it become a Vampire. Simply because I know I can really fuck with him playing a vampire. I shot down his Walker of the Waste idea before it got off the ground, saying that a Vampire wouldn't really be one to travel a desert.

 

[Summerstorm]

LichPire or whater is totally not allowed.

Well, i am away from the books at the moment but i am 95% sure both templates will say: "Can be applied to any living base creature blahblah) So if has the other he is not living anymore and can't get the second template.

Grml... (Also he's got a Level Adjustment of like +12 or something - if he has got it allowed somehow) Means: He's got ridiculous low HP, Saves, Attack, Skills etc. And/Or will never level up again *g*

 

[Estranged180]

You could always allow it, and make the next bit of the campaign completely undead. No blood to be had for survival (vampires can't use dead blood), and everything, and I do mean everything, is undead. Even if it was supposed to be alive, it is now undead... Just a suggestion.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

LichPire or whater is totally not allowed.

Well, i am away from the books at the moment but i am 95% sure both templates will say: "Can be applied to any living base creature blahblah) So if has the other he is not living anymore and can't get the second template.

Grml... (Also he's got a Level Adjustment of like +12 or something - if he has got it allowed somehow) Means: He's got ridiculous low HP, Saves, Attack, Skills etc. And/Or will never level up again *g*

Actually the Lich template makes up for the HP loss, it changes all your Hit Dice to d12.

And the requirements just say that the Lich template can be applied to a Humanoid or monsterous humanoid, and the Vampire changes you to an Undead(augmented Humanoid). So depending on your interpretation of the Vampire template, it could technically be legal if you are a Vampire that becomes a Lich.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I'm not a big D&D player and I know it's a very different style of game to what I normally play, but really.. it strikes me that this guy is just kind of missing the point of the relationship between player and GM.

I mean, as GM you are the world, for the purposes of this game. It really isn't right for him to try and tell you what is and isn't possible. You have every right to ban or prescribe particular characters if you don't feel they fit with the game you want to run or the story you want to tell.

There's no reason why you should even have to let him play a vampire. It's cool if you want to, but it's not even in the SRD so he really has no grounds for trying to force you to let him play one.

Arguments here:

"I don't think it fits with the other characters"
"I don't think it fits with the story I want to run"
"I think it sounds kind of ridiculous"

Really, I wouldn't even get drawn into in-universe debates, because that's often what these kind of people want (well, it's what I wanted back when I was kind of like that). They want to bludgeon you with their knowledge about the sourcebooks, and if you try and couch an argument in lore or book knowledge they will feel like you're giving them a chance to win. The only argument I can see working in this regard is:

"That's really not how I see it working, and I think in my setting I'm going to rule that out"

Remember, you are roleplaying the universe. It's your universe. Sure, you have a duty to entertain the players, but if the players are doing something which ruins your enjoyment you have every right to shoot them down. Being fair is one thing, letting someone ruin the game (and not just for you, but also for the other players who have to watch some histronic ************ work out his ego issues) isn't fair on anyone else.

At the end of the day, you aren't there to entertain one person, you're there to entertain several plus (hopefully) yourself. That overrides everything, even if it means being inconsistent or arbitrary or using your own judgement from time to time.

Incidentally, tortoise knight sounds badass.