Here we go again: Anita Sarkeesian and the gaming community

EvilRoy

The face I make when I see unguarded pie.
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Kind of old news, but EA doing this makes sense to me. They get brownie points for doing something "progressive" given a specific definition of that term, and if anything goes sour then Anita will act as a lightning attractor for the complaints and criticism. Its a no lose situation - like a meat shield that makes you look really good. You get all the compliments for such nice window-dressing, and the meat shield takes all the hits.

Well its no lose for EA at least. Enough people hate them that adding Anita's detractors to the mix isn't going to make an appreciable difference. For Anita, I do wonder how much worse things would get if people felt they had proof she really did ruin a game.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Worgen said:
Hmm, that's pretty stupid.
It's not unique to her, however. It's been used for ages by a good number of people.

TopazFusion said:
Not on the Escapist, no, but made by an Escapist user.
... Over on Destructoid.
Ah. My bad. I took it to mean it originate here.

Still, though, it baffles me that that blog came from someone who made a thread here about how people were going out of their way to be offended. Just. wot.

Yeah, I'ma stick with wot.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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Andy Shandy said:
The best part is that it's not even true! People are getting outraged over something The Kodu - who I see is in the thread to spout some more nonsense - made up two years ago.
Wait, seriously? People are getting upset and this is a bunch of pork-pies?

Fantastic.

Josh123914 said:
I quoted you along with a half dozen others who've been quite vocal in this thread.
Me making one post about how everyone is obsessed with this woman is being quite vocal?
Well, I never. Nobutseriously a little confused as to why you quoted me.

Especially if the whole thing's a bunch of fibs.
 

Something Amyss

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Josh123914 said:
I quoted you along with a half dozen others who've been quite vocal in this thread.
You must have missed the part where I was vocal about it not being true, joking about a lackof fact-checking, and so on. Even if this were real, I doubt that would be what EA wanted.

And (Oh God) I'm gonna try and avoid getting bogged down in minutia, but a company making some sort of calculated risk with high profile people they take on for projects is not a conspiracy.
Inferring motives sans evidence is. Inferring motives sans evidence when the thing in question isn't real also is.
 

black_knight1337

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shrekfan246 said:
Since this has been brought up a few times now, I'll say that I fail to see how it's particularly relevant given that we live in a time where games can be and are heavily modified even long after their initial release.
Post-release patching isn't particularly relevant here though. In the interview [http://www.pcgamer.com/saints-row-4-developer-says-anita-sarkeesian-is-right-in-latest-tropes-vs-women-in-videogames-video/] he talks about how he agrees with her critique and that they've already been making improvements in that regard, including using examples for Saint's Row 3. I can't see how that supports your original point considering it's pretty clear that she hasn't had an influence on their games, at least not yet.

Haerthan said:
I am not even going to dignify that with a response, beyond what I just wrote and will write. Keep yourself blind to the whole thing, I don't care. Keep calling everyone a liar, when the writing is on the wall.
Could say the exact same of yourself. I'll just leave you with this timeline [http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/336432/The-GamerGate-Chronicles] of GamerGate which clearly documents how it all began.
 

Haerthan

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black_knight1337 said:
shrekfan246 said:
Since this has been brought up a few times now, I'll say that I fail to see how it's particularly relevant given that we live in a time where games can be and are heavily modified even long after their initial release.
Post-release patching isn't particularly relevant here though. In the interview [http://www.pcgamer.com/saints-row-4-developer-says-anita-sarkeesian-is-right-in-latest-tropes-vs-women-in-videogames-video/] he talks about how he agrees with her critique and that they've already been making improvements in that regard, including using examples for Saint's Row 3. I can't see how that supports your original point considering it's pretty clear that she hasn't had an influence on their games, at least not yet.

Haerthan said:
I am not even going to dignify that with a response, beyond what I just wrote and will write. Keep yourself blind to the whole thing, I don't care. Keep calling everyone a liar, when the writing is on the wall.
Could say the exact same of yourself. I'll just leave you with this timeline [http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/336432/The-GamerGate-Chronicles] of GamerGate which clearly documents how it all began.
So a ton of evidence that was shown to be clearly non-existent is what the timeline showed. THERE IS NO link of corruptionn between Nathan Grayson and Zoe Quinn, a simple Google search would show it. Yes they slept around sure, but that WAS IT. Also none of your business. And the INdiecade "evidence" is no evidence. TFYC were shown to be playing a game of their own as evidenced by later articles and I believe both parties apologized for that one, not sure. So please bring actual evidence to the table for that. And this isn't a bloody thread about GG. The thread is about Anita Sarkeesian. Both are related, but stick to the subject at hand. I do not want another derailment.
Edit: added some extra stuff

EDIT 2: Also when you got Breitbart, fucking Breitbart, suporting you, all your cries of "BUT ITS ABOUT ETHICS" fly out of the window. If you started say 4 to 5 years ago when the first signs of collusion between Publishers and Gaming Media appeared, you might have had a point. But you didnt, you started in August 2014 with speculations about Zoe Quinn, a witch hunt based on questionable evidence (ex-boyfriend blog post, yea that is really 100% conflict of interest free) and than hacking and doxxing and than further speculation.

Funny how its about ethics. Please show me more, your own evidence shows that you are in the wrong. But enough of it. NO MORE GG derailment. I see you again I will report you. Than you can cry censorship. No wait you can't, cause that isn't censorship. Its just me being tired of this bullshit
 

Lightknight

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TopazFusion said:
Worgen said:
DayDark said:
Worgen said:
What are these radical views? If you would enlighten me.
Im not really at my pc right now, but for example that there's no such thing as sexism against men. She's allowed to believe so, but i find it radical, and i don't believe one can have this view and also be for equality.
I don't recall her saying that in any of her vids. Do you have proof she actually said it?
She didn't say it in her videos, she said it on her twitter account.

https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/533445611543363585

[tweet t=http://twitter.com/femfreq/status/533445611543363585]
I just became aware of this tweet about 10 minutes ago and was wondering if someone here had brought it up.

Do you (or anyone reading this post) know of any other thread that is discussing this tweet more in depth? It is a horribly sexist and pernicious thing of her to say. Such a comment is sexist against men and women alike, completely stereotyping us all and putting us in an imagined position of superiority and inferiority where women can't ever have real control over men to enact sexist practices and men are automatically given a seat of power above all women to enact real ramifications over women.

It's sickening to see people pretend that hate or bigotry against genders or races can't exist if the person was born as a member of a certain gender/race. This should absolutely have been covered more. Or, at all, really.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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No idea why they chose her as consultant as she has shown she knows nothing about gaming. Would have been better to hire a female writer to add a more female point of view to the game. All i can imagine Anita would bring are reverse tropes - so all the enemies will be men in revealing groin bulging leotards and rent boys on every corner.
 

Lovely Mixture

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Haerthan said:
Simple, because the minute I say I am a gamer I have people look at me like I am a monster. When even the freaking New York Times, a HUGE mainstream paper showed that GG was founded on nothing but misogyny,
If you think they showed "proof" then I don't think there's anything that will convince you otherwise.
Also, "mainstream" is all you needed to cast doubt on that paper.

Haerthan said:
Until the community, the entire community, comes out and says we are not those guys, says that we don't condone that, says that nobody deserves that level of harassment regardless of ideology, without ANY BUTS ATTACHED< only then the world might look at us and say: hey gamers aren't that bad.
Good, cause there are thousands of GamerGate supporters who are doing just that.

Haerthan said:
They are just like any community. That is what those articles tried to say in mid-August, that gaming is so diverse, so many people of different genders, ethnicities, races and religions play videogames, that to cater to only one demographic is ECONOMICALLY stupid. But I am wasting time here, time that I could spend finishing up an essay. The minute that everyone comes together and says We do not condone harassment under any way shape or form, only then can we be taken seriously. Regardless of how big the industry is.
Every industry has sexism. No exceptions. This is not a good thing, but it's the reality. You cannot get rid of human stupidity. You can try, but it won't disappear.


Haerthan said:
The people who bully other people for that reason are scum in my opinion, regardless of ideology (pro/anti GG). I still believe however that TB should have just ignored the anti-GG harassers. Going to the side that is at best highly questionable makes him questionable as well. Humans are social creatures and the associations we have with other people/sides taint the perceptions of us. Someone said earlier that he doesn't care for collective punishment.
So, you judge a bunch of people based on harassers....Then you condemn TotalBiscuit for not wanting to side with the people who harassed him. Then state that both sides are bad. Then you say that collective punishment is ok. Which is it?

Your mental gymnastics are quite incredible.

Haerthan said:
Well guess what friend, the world works differently.
Ditto to you. He doesn't align with your worldview.

He thinks Target's decision was anti-consumer.
He doesn't care for collective punishment.
Both of these points seem rational to me.
 

CitizenM

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Sarkeesian will be a consultant for the video game, that's fine. I don't think any differently about Mirror's Edge now that Sarkeesian is involved than I did prior to her involvement. The first Mirror's Edge is a good game and I'm hoping the sequel refines the concept to evolve the property into a great game. She won't have any impact on whether or not the gameplay improves upon the previous game or results in the sequel I'm hoping it will be.

However, my opinion of Sarkeesian has not changed; I like what she stands for but I can't stand her.

I think what makes Sarkeesian so polarizing a figure (beyond simply being a feminist living in an oppressive patriarchy) is because she is fighting the good fight, but fighting it dirty with her toxic personality. She's like James Cameron; a person that gives us something very valuable as an audience, but is an almost insufferable personality. For all her feminist crusading, Sarkeesian is not the bridge we need. She's not going to bring us all together. She's not going to form our ideal future where video games aren't such a one-sided entertainment medium. She's only here to tell us all that there is a problem. And from the equally toxic reaction of the hard core gamer community, that tells you just how far gone some are and how much the cause needs a voice and a face.

My problem with her is that her behaviour encourages the perpetuation of the very toxic reaction she has received from the extremists. Her videos are patronizing, her tone is condescending and her political motives are nauseating. She laughs down the haters with an aloof disgust that I find common in many of the sociopaths currently occupying the 1% of our society. Yes, the disgusting video game fundamentalists that send her death threats deserve scorn; no one else does. My problem is her "message" is indiscriminate. Her behavior continues to marginalize and bully people who are already marginalized and bullied.

At the risk of a little sympathy for the devil, most of the worst hardcore gamers trying to shout down Sarkeesian are doing so for a reason. Like any behaviour, the worst fundamentalists have their reasons regardless of how twisted they may be. Sarkeesian's approach to gamers - condescending and flippant - encourages the worst gamers to remain immature, entitled and extreme.

Some few take refuge in video games; for some, it's all they have. Video games are their escape, a place where they can feel welcomed, liked and loved, where they have all the agency they lack in their own lives. It doesn't matter that the rest of us all know Sarkeesian isn't the bane of video games, that is how she MAKES the fundamentalist gamers feel. To them she is yet another outsider patronizing them and here she comes to take away the last haven in life they feel they have. She might as well be an atheist crusader trying to outlaw religion. I see no surprise that the reaction would be so vile, so hateful and so extreme. These are human beings who feel their sanity - perhaps even their very lives - are at risk. Sarkeesian doesn't care and most of her defenders don't either. To them, the fundamentalists they mentally destroy along the way are acceptable casualties as long as it forces the game playing majority to grow up.

Sarkeesin believes the ends justify the means. I do not.

If Sarkeesian is Malcolm X, then what we need is a Martin Luther King. Someone who can show people that simply including women, gays and minorities in video games makes video games all the better for it and is not the end to anyone's enjoyment of the medium. Until that person appears, I guess I'll just have to continue to ignore Sarkeesian and her cronies :)
 

Grizzly_Bear_1

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Well, there's at least one woman out there with student loan debts who knows how to code missing out on a paycheck so EA can hire a fraud.
 

Andy Shandy

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Seriously? People are filing petitions over something made up here on the Escapist?
Phasmal said:
Wait, seriously? People are getting upset and this is a bunch of pork-pies?

Fantastic.
Yeah, like Topaz said, [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.866601-Here-we-go-again-Anita-Sarkeesian-and-the-gaming-community?page=6#21669543] it all came from this blog post [http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/TheKodu/the-sarkeesian-the-dice-and-the-mirror--235992.phtml] by The Kodu over at Destructoid.

Anita herself talked about it at the XOXO festival this year.


Not that that stops people complaining about it, mind.
 

Josh123914

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Josh123914 said:
I quoted you along with a half dozen others who've been quite vocal in this thread.
You must have missed the part where I was vocal about it not being true, joking about a lackof fact-checking, and so on. Even if this were real, I doubt that would be what EA wanted.

And (Oh God) I'm gonna try and avoid getting bogged down in minutia, but a company making some sort of calculated risk with high profile people they take on for projects is not a conspiracy.
Inferring motives sans evidence is. Inferring motives sans evidence when the thing in question isn't real also is.
Meh, I quoted you because you've been active in this thread and regardless of your intentions you're contributing to a controversy that doesn't exist.

Hypothetically, you'd be stoking the fires, in fact pretty much every one here is.

And there's a difference between a conspiracy and an educated guess.
I'm not gonna convince you of anything, but you can't tell me EA would hire her without thinking stuff like this through. Actually I'm just gonna quote this:
EvilRoy said:
Kind of old news, but EA doing this makes sense to me. They get brownie points for doing something "progressive" given a specific definition of that term, and if anything goes sour then Anita will act as a lightning attractor for the complaints and criticism. Its a no lose situation - like a meat shield that makes you look really good. You get all the compliments for such nice window-dressing, and the meat shield takes all the hits.

Well its no lose for EA at least. Enough people hate them that adding Anita's detractors to the mix isn't going to make an appreciable difference. For Anita, I do wonder how much worse things would get if people felt they had proof she really did ruin a game.
EvilRoy does a better job explaining this than I did.
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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TopazFusion said:
Lightknight said:
Do you (or anyone reading this post) know of any other thread that is discussing this tweet more in depth?
I don't remember there being a thread about it, no.
The tweet was only tweeted last month, less than a month ago. So I guess you could always make a thread about it.
Hmm, I'm hesitant to attach my name to a thread that will absolutely devolve into hate but I'd think the philosophical implications of her claim would be fascinating to see discussed in depth. So I guess I'll bite the bullet and make it. If I'm even using that phrase properly.
 

EternallyBored

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Lightknight said:
I just became aware of this tweet about 10 minutes ago and was wondering if someone here had brought it up.

Do you (or anyone reading this post) know of any other thread that is discussing this tweet more in depth? It is a horribly sexist and pernicious thing of her to say. Such a comment is sexist against men and women alike, completely stereotyping us all and putting us in an imagined position of superiority and inferiority where women can't ever have real control over men to enact sexist practices and men are automatically given a seat of power above all women to enact real ramifications over women.

It's sickening to see people pretend that hate or bigotry against genders or races can't exist if the person was born as a member of a certain gender/race. This should absolutely have been covered more. Or, at all, really.
It had a rather large thread on the religion and politics forum when it happened, it was a while ago so its dead now.

As for why it didn't gain more traction, it's because this isn't actually a new view, and its not quite the way you are interpreting it as, it's one that many people disagree with, but it's not new.

It doesn't actually state that men can't experience gender based hatred or bigotry, it's an attempt to redefine sexism as institutionalized sexism, so that it only counts as such when it is structurally based, usually its a term that crops up in power politics segments of academia, but it is not based around men always having control control and women always being powerless, even the most ivory tower intellectual isn't clueless enough to push that narrative.

So let's reign back the hyperbole a little bit here, Anita doesn't think men hold absolutely all the power ever, and that they can't experience bigotry or hatred, she just has a dumb redefinition of a term that even the stauncher feminists on this forum tend to disagree with, that's why this didn't gain more attention, because it's not nearly as pernicious as you are painting it as.
 

Haerthan

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Lovely Mixture said:
Haerthan said:
Simple, because the minute I say I am a gamer I have people look at me like I am a monster. When even the freaking New York Times, a HUGE mainstream paper showed that GG was founded on nothing but misogyny,
If you think they showed "proof" then I don't think there's anything that will convince you otherwise.
Also, "mainstream" is all you needed to cast doubt on that paper.

Haerthan said:
Until the community, the entire community, comes out and says we are not those guys, says that we don't condone that, says that nobody deserves that level of harassment regardless of ideology, without ANY BUTS ATTACHED< only then the world might look at us and say: hey gamers aren't that bad.
Good, cause there are thousands of GamerGate supporters who are doing just that.

Haerthan said:
They are just like any community. That is what those articles tried to say in mid-August, that gaming is so diverse, so many people of different genders, ethnicities, races and religions play videogames, that to cater to only one demographic is ECONOMICALLY stupid. But I am wasting time here, time that I could spend finishing up an essay. The minute that everyone comes together and says We do not condone harassment under any way shape or form, only then can we be taken seriously. Regardless of how big the industry is.
Every industry has sexism. No exceptions. This is not a good thing, but it's the reality. You cannot get rid of human stupidity. You can try, but it won't disappear.


Haerthan said:
The people who bully other people for that reason are scum in my opinion, regardless of ideology (pro/anti GG). I still believe however that TB should have just ignored the anti-GG harassers. Going to the side that is at best highly questionable makes him questionable as well. Humans are social creatures and the associations we have with other people/sides taint the perceptions of us. Someone said earlier that he doesn't care for collective punishment.
So, you judge a bunch of people based on harassers....Then you condemn TotalBiscuit for not wanting to side with the people who harassed him. Then state that both sides are bad. Then you say that collective punishment is ok. Which is it?

Your mental gymnastics are quite incredible.

Haerthan said:
Well guess what friend, the world works differently.
Ditto to you. He doesn't align with your worldview.

He thinks Target's decision was anti-consumer.
He doesn't care for collective punishment.
Both of these points seem rational to me.
Lovely one of you. You haven't read eveything I said have you? In the end I SAID he should have stuck to his guns: NEUTRALITY. But your quote of me doesn't show that. That is really dishonest. And TB has shown himself to flip and flop between issues. That is why I do not respect the guy so much anymore. Well it isn't soo rational in my eyes: who is the larger shopping demographic at Target: gamers or parents? Parents. Who made the petition: parents/sex workers/ other people or gamers. Who is Target going to listen to: the demographic that makes them money. Have you even seen the inside of Target's gaming aisles? It is really bad. So what Target did was pro-consumer, more or less.

He doesn't care for collective punishment, fair enough. But keep in mind that the "Gamers are dead" articles weren't collective punishment. They were articles to show that the community is diverse. You not understanding that is both our issues, cause GG has besmirched the name of the community and dragged it in the mud. People keep saying collective punishment is bad. Yes it is bad, yes I do not want to do such a thing, but people outside of the community take one look at the whole bloody thing and we are all brushed with the same brush. That is how the world works, regardless of what America or other people seem to think.

Edit: What I am trying to say is this: Every last one of us must come out and say : WE DO NOT CONDONE HARASSMENT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. That is what I am saying.
 

Ishigami

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It amazes me that people still care about her and give her opportunities to speak. Then again most people believe in some sort of deity and listen to that BS apparently once a week? just proves mankind is stupid I suppose.

Anita giving advice to game companies? stupid idea.
Her own and only game idea is just a collection of tropes but since it?s only sexist when men do it its total okay.
If you really wonder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZKtFfHIGrA
Hahaha? yea no.
 

Danny Dowling

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nearly 20,000 sigs though. wow.

When I signed yesterday it was under 2,000.

clearly there is a call for her to do one and a following of people that just want her away from games. there are plenty of female gamers (that actually play games as a hobby rather than getting into it for the sake of her project) that have opinions and stances worth listening to. Why anyone would listen to this person is beyond me.
 

Something Amyss

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Andy Shandy said:
Not that that stops people complaining about it, mind.
I think Phasmal's was rhetorical, mind.

Josh123914 said:
Meh, I quoted you because you've been active in this thread and regardless of your intentions you're contributing to a controversy that doesn't exist.
Only in the same sense that you are. However, you're the one saying this is what EA wants, which would indicate to me you didn't understand that this controversy doesn't exist.

Hypothetically, you'd be stoking the fires, in fact pretty much every one here is.
So you quoted me, stoking the fires, to tell me I was stoking the fires.

And there's a difference between a conspiracy and an educated guess.
I agree. However, what you said gave no indication of "educated guess." You were telling us how we were playing right into EA's hands. As such, while I cannot prove your intent, I have no reason to believe that it was an educated guess, and reason to believe it was conspiracy. Especially since you had the presence of mind to say it wasn't.

You're probably right that you can't convince me, but that has less to do with me and more your lack of a cogent argument.