Heroes fighting for the wrong cause?

[Apocalypse Tank]

master chief

why save humanity?

 

[The Iron Ninja]

Considering your just wailing on about Commonwealth and British forces are the same thing,

i don't believe i was wailing but the british commonwealth casuality figures are listed as one group in my sources, plus saying commonwealth is easy shorthand for listing all the commonwealth nations at the time but if offends you so, i shall instead list them
Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Barbados, Bahrain, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Burma, Bhutan, Cameroon, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Egypt, Ethiopia, Gambia, Ghana, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, Fiji, Hong Kong and other chinese territories, India, Israel, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lesotho, Libya, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Namibia, Nauru, New Zealand, Nepal, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Palestine, Papua New Guinea, Qatar, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Somaliland, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Kingdom, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe
obviously thats doesn't include the volunteers from other nations that took up British uniforms. it also doesn't include those formations of free forces, Poles, Czechs, Norwegians etc who were under British command.

Thanks Wikipedia!

Honestly...
And you don't have to isolate each little bit of text in quotes like that. It makes you come off as somewhat snarky, attempting to condecend each and every little aspect in little bits.

also. Lock

 

[Teh_Lemon]

Anyone here mention the uninteresting Christopher Columbus yet? We regard him as a hero but he enslaved and took over many native Americans and their land...

 

[Capt_Jack_Doicy]

Maybe I should relate a true story about my grandfather for you to finally shut up, Doicy:

My maternal grandfather was in North Africa with the 8th Army, as a Medic. My grandfather didn't care what uniform a person wore, even if they were an Axis soldier, officer, etc.

During one battle, I think El Alamein, not sure, the 8th Army and the Afrika Corps were fighting. As was my grandfathers job, he ran out there to tend to the wounded, get them behind the lines, etc.

At one point, my grandfather ran into the middle of the battlefield, and started taking care of a wounded officer. As he was tending to the injured guy, he suddenly hears someone yelling from the Germans, and the fighting stops. My grandfather asks just WTF is going on, but his colleagues tell him to keep doing his thing. During the ceasefire, Medics from both sides got their wounded medical help.

Eventually, my father had taken the wounded behind the lines, and then asked a friend of his who knew German just what had happened. His friend tells him that the one who yelled was Erwin Rommel, who had ordered a ceasefire on that particular part of the battle. Fighting raged all around, but NOBODY engaged in that spot.

The reason why? My grandfather had been saving a GERMAN Officer, even though there was a Brit nearby. The Brit could move himself to safety now that the fighting had stopped, but the German couldn't. Rommel had ordered that NOBODY shoot at my grandfather, even though they could have easily killed him.

If Rommel was "evil", as you say, why would he have ordered a complete ceasefire?

first i never said he was evil, I said he wasn't a hero because he'd signed up with the forces of evil. But you seem to also forgot the British weren't the focus of Nazi venom, British POWs were treated well and numerous times they would exchange wounded. if he had been a hero he would of got out of the allies way and called a complete ceasefire, freeing allied troops from africa.

but perhaps a better perspective would be achieved from my own grandfather story.
my Grandfather served with the 11th Armoured Division, he saw half his friends die as they bogged down around Caen against heavy german resistence, and yet more die as they held the line during the battle of the bulge. The 11th liberated the camp at Bergen Belsen, and my grandfather saw the horrors he saw his honourable commanders agree a ceasefire at let the germans go, and he never got over it, he drank himself into a divorce, dementia and an early grave, all because he blamed himself. He was a driver, i felt if they'd just been faster got there sooner they could of saved more, despite the fact the 11th had one of the fast advances in history. every minute every hour every day that people like rommel delay men like my grandfather and his comrades who gave their lives was a day, was another thousand dead. So the honourable thing the heroic would of been to do something to stop it himself if not that he could of killed himself 5 years earlier and been one less obstacle in the allies way.

Also, let me specify: We aren't taught to carry out orders we cannot do, either physically, mentally, etc. THOSE we can bring up immediately and refuse to do. Its only the ones that we have no obvious reason to question that we must do. And with Rommel, even if he DID surrender the entire Afrika Corps, there was STILL the rest of the German army, SS who WERE NOT UNDER HIS COMMAND, possible death-by-sneaky-POW, with a German Special Agent being PURPOSELY captured in order to eliminate Rommel, repercussions towards his family, actual soldiers and officers who were blind Nazi followers that WOULD rebel and carry on the fight, with more possible deaths on BOTH sides (and to civilians), and other things that were VERY good reasons for Rommel NOT to defect and/or surrender.

that is such bollocks just apologist crap, not counting your SS ninja theory (rommel wouldn't be a POW camp he'd be far to valuable) Ignorance is not a excuse and Rommel was far from ignorant. and each minute the allies gained, every less soldier that had to fight they way through, losing hundreds of thousand of there own men to do so, brought them that much closer to ending the Nazis evil.

Oh, and bullshit on Nazi's keeping "very good documents".

well its germans in general that why it so much easier to study modern german history since they kept such good records, i guess since you don't know this you haven't studied any.

Rommel WAS incarcerated by the SS, and Rommel was the KEYSTONE in the Officers' Coup.

no he wasn't, learn some history.

The SS gave him the option between trial-and-execution and suicide. Had he NOT chosen the latter, they probably would've used fake, SS-created documents to help find him guilty.

Rommel was an honourable, chivalrous man, he was just doing what he HAD to do to protect himself, his family AND his country.

So Jews, Socialists, Homosexuals, Dwarfs, the Disabled and the mental ill weren't his countrymen? plenty of resistance fighters all over germany risked the families from the Edelweiss Piraten to the SPD to the 450 individuals who are righteous among nations it didn't stop them doing the RIGHT thing. How can you have honour if your not first moral?

He did not fight for the Nazi Party or for Hitler, he fought for GERMANY.

Nazi party and Germany were one and the same, plus he would of sworn a personal oath to Hitler as it was a requirement for military service.

 

[meatloaf231]

I third the Win motion *bangs imaginary gabble down on desk, if only for effect*.

Gavel.

 

[The Iron Ninja]

Huh... well now I look like an idiot. Thanks alot Meatloaf231!

 

[Eyclonus]

William Scurry an Australian soldier who developed a self-firing rifle in WW1. It was used by the ANZACs to make the Ottoman forces present believe the ANZACs were still in there trenches when they were in fact quietly retreating. The only success in that whole campaign was the zero casualities during the retreat.

Or do Heroes have to posses an innate "Banish Greater Nazi" Spell-like ability?

 

[Capt_Jack_Doicy]

And Doicy completely ignores my Grandfathers story. Someone can't respond to being served.

your opinion to your grandfather story is a bit crass. as for not getting back to you well i had to decide whether or not to talk about my grandfather, and now i think it was rather a mistake given how you see the ancedote of your grandfather experience as little different from a power move in a combat game as if it has no real value to you.

I believe that there is no reason to lock this thread, as only 1 poster here is ignoring the truth IE: Saying that Rommel was a Field Marshal Hitler, when Rommel was, in reality, a very courageous, respectful, chivalrous gentleman,

The only one ignoring truth is you, because you have a mancrush on a german general. if were courageous he would of fought Hitler, if were respectful he would of laid down his arms, if were chivalrous he would of been smuggling jews out of germany and if were a gentlemen he would of saved his mistress. Further how as a general is he any of those things?

who just happened to be fighting for the wrong side. The same can be said for von Richthofen in World War I.

see this your fundamental mistake, the Second World War was like no other war that came before its not a matter of being on the wrong side its about good and evil, its the only war (other than possibly the US civil war) where this is the case it was the envitable clash of liberalism and authoritarianism. so in WW1 you could say all those things of any general it was people on different sides, (but again how are the generals heroes?). But thats not the case in world war 2 there was good and evil, anyone who fought for that banner, for that goal, is marred by it and they stand opposed to everything concepts like chivalry thats why the truly courageous heroes are men like Fritz Kolbe not Rommel.

 

[Eyclonus]

I've been tempted to report Doicy for trolling, but given that he's not blatantly breaking any rules, and the fact I'm opposing his arguements makes it seem quite petty.

 

[The Iron Ninja]

It's not like Rommel started off as a Nazi general anyway. He was already in the army, he served in WW1, got an Iron cross (I think) and stayed on. He wasn't any part of the rise of the Nazi party, he was just a general in the german army. And a good general too (as in he made sound tactical decisions, I'm not saying he's some kind of Martyr, though he was by no means some kind of monster either.)

Oh and once again Lock. This is just turning into petty arguments, names have been called, inteligence and careers have been questioned, and I even mis-spelt Gavel. It's time to end it.

 

[Capt_Jack_Doicy]

You said Ghana twice, dipshit.

my mistake but i think your err worse.

Israel and Pakistan were the EXACT SAME PLACE during World War II. Pakistan was only OFFICIALLY called Israel post-World War II.

ah didn't have to wait long, well first i was going by their current names, second Pakistan was the same as India in World war 2 Israel didn't exist and is now sited on part of what was the mandate of palestine as is the current state of palestine

And "Somaliland"? Don't you mean SOMALIA?

actually somaliland broke away a few years ago, don't worry if you don't follow african politics.

Oh, and could you use English correctly? Or do I have to bring down Grammar Nazi powers on your stupid ass?

you could i doubt it would help, i do apologise if any of it is hard to read grammar wise or if there are words missing from sentences, i have a slight learning difficulty, and without the safety net of a spell check or one of the admins proof reading it can suffer from those problems for which i apologise.

 

[Eyclonus]

You know there are better ways to quote posts, your style of breaking it down like that strips the material of contextual meaning, and is very much asking a complex question but demanding a Yes or No answer.

 

[Capt_Jack_Doicy]

EVERYTHING HE SAYS can be disproven.

yet you failed to disprove any of it, you can't even provide sources to back up your claims.

Also, Doicy has contradicted himself so many times. First, he says Rommel is evil, and brings up bullshit evidence.

no i said he was a nazi.

We prove him wrong.

when exactly you claimed it was lies?

He says that Rommel wasn't evil, just AIDING evil. True, he did, but what other course was there?

the right course

The Resistance members risked their lives and families, but THEY could hide their identities and be secretive about it,

they weren't superheroes they were just ordinary people doing the right thing.

and possibly hide their family. Rommel? Not a chance. If he did openly defy the Nazi Party in an extreme manner (like surrender), SS raid on his homes and the homes of his family and goodbye to the Rommel's.

I like how you belittle those people willing to risk and sacrifice their lives to do the right thing, but Rommel oh no he could never risk his family at how many lives does it become worth the risk? a hundred? a thousand? a million?

Erwin WOULD be a high target for German assassination.

so was churchill.

Do you REALLY think that the Nazi's had no spies or saboteurs?

i like hows its changed from SS ninja was imaging that guy from Hellboy charging at rommel in some prison camp. and the German intelligence was complete compromised by the skill of British intelligence and the bravery of men like Fritz Kolbe, so most spies had been turned to double agents.

The point stands that whatever bullshit "history" you are using to say that Rommel was not a hero-on-the-wrong-side is false,

just because you don't like it does not make it false, fact is fact. he wasn't a hero, you want a hero look up Paddy Mayne.

as is your belief that a high-decorated FIELD MARSHAL

decorated and promoted by the Nazi Government.

in charge of the AFRIKA CORPS is the same as a lowly French Resistance member who can hide himself and his family away from the Germans.

the one lowly one is a coward like Rommel too afraid according to you to do the right thing. but your right there was a difference Rommel could of done much more.

And use English properly, or are you the stereotypical American child who doesn't care about spelling/grammar, thinks that America Won The Wars [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AmericaWinsTheWar], shovels down fast-food crap all day and thinks he will become a top-notch businessman, when in reality you will only get a low-paying job at the fast-food "restaurant" you love, if you're lucky enough to not become a fat, drunken beggar.

everyone of those american soldiers that fought and died in ww2 was a Hero something rommel was not.

the actions of ALLIED officers has nothing to do with Rommel.

just another one of your honourable agreement among officers.

oh and your powers of deductive reasoning are as poor as your knowledge of history.

 

[Capt_Jack_Doicy]

You know there are better ways to quote posts, your style of breaking it down like that strips the material of contextual meaning, and is very much asking a complex question but demanding a Yes or No answer.

i'm sorry thats not my intent, i merely find it the easiest way to show what specific point i'm answering, its just my preferred style. plus since its a response to the person i'm quote i feel they will be well aware of the context when reading and replying.

 

[Eyclonus]

Shall we get back on topic.

Can anyone else think of an Hero from some other war?

 

[Thaliur]

Oh, yes, they defeated the Nazis, big deal...

i can't believe you just said that, thats just a truly disgusting statement.

Why is it disgusting? Why should an army that committed the same crimes as an army they defeated be considered heroic?

fog of war? its not the 18th century officers have realtime imaging, instant communication and secured HQs. hell with land warrior system they have accurate information on every soldier right down to his line of sight.

True, not the 18th century, but do you know ANY single thing about the time Rommel lived in? They barely had colour photography back then.
Someone really needs a sense of proportion here...

Maybe I should relate a true story about my grandfather [...] party or for Hitler, he fought for GERMANY.

I shortened the story. I like it though, and the way you told it is exactly how it should happen on any battlefield anywhere.

thus it is impossible for him to be a hero

MAy I direct your attention to the thread's title? Thank you for looking up...

you seem to be missing the obvious, he helped evil you can't aid evil and be a hero that the opposite of a hero.

That, again, just depends on the definiton of "hero". As I said before, for me, a hero is someone doing the right thing, or at least something good, in difficult circumstances, not someone who follows a good cause by all means.
So you would consider an allied soldier who just kept his trigger pulled while walking through a German city a hero, just because he was fighting for the right side, though he killed lots of innocent civilians by his actions? MAybe the US army was also heroic for dropping the nuclear fission bombs on Japan, because Japan was ruled by the devil back then? Or at least allied with Germany...

[quote}your own argument for call him a hero is that he was a great commander so the least possible damage would to be surrender, or delibrate disadvantage his own troops in some way, Not reinforce the atlantic wall.[/quote]Sometimes, the obvious solution is not the right solution, knowing this difference is part of being a hero. If you still don't understand that, you should leave this thread. Now. And please, silently.

and? what sort of argument is that if i don't aid the murderers there just get someone else to do it? thats pathetic.

It might be pathetic, but it is still true

EVERYTHING HE SAYS can be disproven.

yet you failed to disprove any of it, you can't even provide sources to back up your claims.

Well, pretty much the same applies to you. Any sources you are using is just called "my sources", apart from some obscure British documentary apparently no one except you knows about


And finally: Thank you Apocalypse Tank, Teh_Lemon, Eyclonus and Pyromaniac1337, for trying to get this thread back on track, although your posts aimed at doing that seem to have been ignored.

I'm not sure about Columbus, since he did something which was... well, at least quite ok (discover a new continent), but did it in a somewhat unnecessarily brutal way. Interesting point though

 

[Eyclonus]

I said "an Hero"

 

[Jaythulhu]

*laughs* Comic book heroes used to fight for truth, justice and the american way. Now that the american way has nothing to do with truth or justice, what're they actually fighting for?

[edited for spelling]

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

*laughs* Comic book heroes used to fight for truth, justice and the american way. Now that the american way has nothing to do with truth or justice, what're they actually fighting for?

[edited for spelling]

For PR because they just took a piss on a family member of yours head and cockslapped your mom?

/Stupid childish comment.

 

[ShortCommings]

well rommel may haveen a hero or not, not denieing wrong cause, but he was a superb tacctician.