Heteronormaltivity in games

[bug_of_war]

That last part, "I feel more comfortable playing as a straight male character", is the important sentence here. That's fine! Most people feel the same way!

But why should a gay person not have a single damn game in which they can feel the same way?

I never said they shouldn't have a game where the protagonist is gay (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, almost any RPG in the current console generation allow this), what I said was why can't a game just be that, a game. In Mortal Kombat, I'm not worrying if Scorpion is straight, or if Sonia is a woman, I'm worrying about how I'm going to beat the enemy. This sentence, "I feel more comfortable playing as a straight male character" really only applies to games where that is a choice (at least that's what I meant for it to apply to). Out of my 12 Shepards in Mass Effect, 9 of them are male, 1 of them is a lesbian, the other is straight, yet another's game could be 10 males all of which are gay, or females whom are gay, etc. etc.

Because of how much I play as a male character, and my reasons behind it, I think that the first thing that needs to change is the gender issues more than their sexual orientation. There's what? 50% of the population whom are female? As opposed to (this is from reading other's comments, may be wrong) 5% of the population whom are gay? Seeing as how females have been somewhat sidelined much more than homosexuals throughout history (ancient Greeks had many heroes whom bonked the same gender(even their own siblings/parents)) maybe they deserve more screen time than others. Hell, a African or Asian or Middle Eastern character would be more progressive (in the sense of giving people a character they can more easily identify with) than a gay character.

 

[Aramis Night]

snippity

A great many books feature gay protagonists; a number of films (though a smaller proportion, I'd bet) have them, too.

Their publishing companies haven't folded just yet.

Do you imagine gamers to be that much more dominantly straight than readers or cinema-goers?

I was under the impression that games like Saints Row 4 and Mass Effect 3 had it so the PC can be homosexual.

They do. Those that allow you to choose your sexuality are a step forward, I have to admit.

But you can see how the choice is pretty restricted, if the only option to have a gay character is to spend time in the "Imagine it your way" box. I'm sure some gay gamers would enjoy playing something with a romantic plot actually written and plotted. I might even find it fun myself.

In both of these media's, smaller companies took the lead and proved that there was a profit to be made. Of course being passive forms of entertainment, they didn't have to worry about offending the reader or audience since they were never intended to be a part of the story. That is the challenge that the gaming industry is looking at which is why they are so gun shy about it so far. With time, it will evolve as it has been. Just have to be patient.

 

[jehk]

But it is all for the sake of sustaining the corporation.

Sure but sustaining the corporation doesn't mean making profit at all costs. They can do it because they want to provide a place where creative people can work together. A place where they can give back to the community and provide a meaningful service that make people lives better. The reasons go on and on. Making lots of money to give back to shareholder is one of many.

You can find lots of examples. The bank I used to work for is one such company. There's a reason why they weathered the US housing collapse so well. They really tried to help their clients instead of throwing fairness out the window to make money.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I was under the impression that games like Saints Row 4 and Mass Effect 3 had it so the PC can be homosexual.

Sure but can you think of a single protagonist that was written as gay?

His/her question was, "But why should a gay person not have a single damn game in which they can feel the same way?"

I gave two examples of why that isn't true.

Is it really true? In Saints Row 4, gender and sexuality have no meaning because everything is permissible. You get the exact same thing man or women, gay or straight.

I'm not sure about Mass Effect 3. Is there a romance written just for gay men and women? Even if the answer is yes why should only one game out of countless be okay?

How would that make you feel if you only had one game to choose from.

First. His question was why there aren't any. I showed that there are. Criteria met.

Second. I have NO games to choose from for an aspie protagonist but I don't expect game makers to cater to my minority either. I also have plenty of other things to look for in video-game characters because me being an aspie is not the one trait that defines me and it is not the only thing I'm concerned with. If the only way for you to enjoy a character is if they display one specific aspect about yourself that you both have in common then that's a rather childish way of thinking.

 

[Silvanus]

I never said they shouldn't have a game where the protagonist is gay (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, almost any RPG in the current console generation allow this), what I said was why can't a game just be that, a game. In Mortal Kombat, I'm not worrying if Scorpion is straight, or if Sonia is a woman, I'm worrying about how I'm going to beat the enemy. This sentence, "I feel more comfortable playing as a straight male character" really only applies to games where that is a choice (at least that's what I meant for it to apply to). Out of my 12 Shepards in Mass Effect, 9 of them are male, 1 of them is a lesbian, the other is straight, yet another's game could be 10 males all of which are gay, or females whom are gay, etc. etc.

When you say, "why can't a game just be that, a game"... why wouldn't it just be a game anymore if it had a gay protagonist?

I've already explained twice before why allowing the option to create a character with whatever sexuality you like is not the same as having a written romance that happens to be gay.

Seeing as how females have been somewhat sidelined much more than homosexuals throughout history

This is an issue for another thread, but I think you need to read up on your history and current affairs.

In both of these media's, smaller companies took the lead and proved that there was a profit to be made. Of course being passive forms of entertainment, they didn't have to worry about offending the reader or audience since they were never intended to be a part of the story. That is the challenge that the gaming industry is looking at which is why they are so gun shy about it so far. With time, it will evolve as it has been. Just have to be patient.

Ah, so you agree it should happen, then?

In that case, I misunderstood. I thought you were taking the stance of, "Companies exist to make a profit, and for that reason we can't criticise them for failing to include this stuff".

 

[Ihateregistering1]

A business CAN earn a profit and be fair, the question is why should they?

Do you think all people who run businesses are amoral and greedy? Businesses are composed of people. People that want more than to just make money at all costs.

The rather large corporation I work is like this. They put a ton of money back into the community because that's the kind of world they want to live in (ie helping people).

I know greed is often synonymous with corporate culture but its far from universal.

I don't think they're amoral or greedy in the slightest (well, some are), but what is amoral about not putting a gay character in a game? It's the company's product, they can put whoever the heck they want in their product that they funded and produced.

Look, I'm as libertarian as they get and I think companies should be able to do whatever the heck they want that isn't illegal, but I don't find anything particularly morally righteous about having your main character be X sexual orientation or Y gender. Give them credit for bucking trends? Sure, but that doesn't make them morally superior to a company that produces a game with generic 30-something white dude protagonist.

Also remember that higher profit=company expansion, company expansion=more jobs, so we're not just talking about the all-powerful "profit" here, we're talking about people getting a paycheck. If I had the choice between having 1 person not get (or lose) a job, and having gays represent 5% of all game characters, I'll choose the real-life person with a real-life job over virtual characters every day of the week.

 

[Aramis Night]

But it is all for the sake of sustaining the corporation.

Sure but sustaining the corporation doesn't mean making profit at all costs. They can do it because they want to provide a place where creative people can work together. A place where they can give back to the community and provide a meaningful service that make people lives better. The reasons go on and on. Making lots of money to give back to shareholder is one of many.

You can find lots of examples. The bank I used to work for is one such company. There's a reason why they weathered the US housing collapse so well. They really tried to help their clients instead of throwing fairness out the window to make money.

Or they were simply prudent enough to see what was coming and knowing that it wouldn't benefit them to have a bunch of bankrupted clients acted accordingly out of self interest that they could masquerade as benevolence which would still serve the corporation better in the long run.

Yes, it is possible that a company can sometimes afford to not be entirely mercenary about every dealing they make. But it is a luxury, and one that tends to fly out the door the minute profitability is threatened.

 

[bug_of_war]

When you say, "why can't a game just be that, a game"... why wouldn't it just be a game anymore if it had a gay protagonist?

I've already explained twice before why allowing the option to create a character with whatever sexuality you like is not the same as having a written romance that happens to be gay.

When I say, "why can't a game just be that, a game" it's suppose to imply "Why does sexuality matter in a game?". That means who cares if they are straight, gay or bi, just play the game and enjoy the game. You don't play basketball because you wanna fuck someone or find out if someone is gay, straight or bi. All I'm saying is that why can't games just be games, why do we have to have the sexuality of the character come into question?

Also, the answer to why a character isn't specifically written as being gay is because being gay is not common. This also ties into the whole whom should be represented more first so...

Seeing as how females have been somewhat sidelined much more than homosexuals throughout history

This is an issue for another thread, but I think you need to read up on your history and current affairs.

Yes, it is, but just read up on really any cultures history and you will see that when stacked up women are treated poorly much more often than homosexuals. I'm not saying that currently in some countries gays aren't treated as unequal (Hell, my country wont allow them to marry) all I'm saying is that I think in terms of a game a female character would be more refreshing and seem less "check list" than a gay character.

 

[Aramis Night]

In both of these media's, smaller companies took the lead and proved that there was a profit to be made. Of course being passive forms of entertainment, they didn't have to worry about offending the reader or audience since they were never intended to be a part of the story. That is the challenge that the gaming industry is looking at which is why they are so gun shy about it so far. With time, it will evolve as it has been. Just have to be patient.

Ah, so you agree it should happen, then?

In that case, I misunderstood. I thought you were taking the stance of, "Companies exist to make a profit, and for that reason we can't criticise them for failing to include this stuff".

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic. I just don't understand what is to be gained by being naive. I just have little patience for clinging to fantasy lands we clearly don't live in. You don't change things by acting ignorant of the way the world is. People here seem to expect to be understood but have so little interest in understanding others. Like in this case, they don't seem to have any interest in learning how companies operate, but want to dictate what they should be doing.

It's like how i've been accused of misogyny so many times here, yet all i've ever done is express my views of women to be just as dim as my views of men. I'm all about equality. I tend to be sympathetic to some of the young men here who have had issues with females. But i'm no less sympathetic to women for having to put up with men. Why all women aren't lesbian, ill never understand.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

 

[Aramis Night]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

*sigh*

sym·pa·thy
ˈsimpəTHē
noun
noun: sympathy

1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"

2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"

The word you're looking for is kindness, not sympathy.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

I work on projects that connect our employees with the community. If I thought a game could do that they would certainly support me.

Your "business is business" assertion does demonstrate your deft understanding of corporate culture and related business practices.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

*sigh*

sym·pa·thy
ˈsimpəTHē
noun
noun: sympathy

1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"

2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"

The word you're looking for is kindness, not sympathy.

What? Number 2 totally works.

Using "business is business" to excuse video game character homogeneity totally demonstrates a lack of understanding between people.

 

[Aramis Night]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

I work on projects that connect our employees with the community. If I thought a game could do that they would certainly support me.

Your "business is business" assertion does demonstrate your deft understand on corporation culture and business practices.

You keep stating "Business is Business" as though i actually ever used those words. Though I'll follow through on it i suppose. At least then maybe you'll make a point against this strawman you want to battle so much. Community outreach is good PR. Good PR is in the interests of your banks profits, no matter how much you want to pretend its entirely altruistic. People like to think that a company they give money to gives a damn about them on some level. It is in your employer's interest to make sure you drink the kool aid, because you will do a better job of fooling shills if you're one as well. I'm guessing you must be very good at your job.

 

[Aramis Night]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

*sigh*

sym·pa·thy
ˈsimpəTHē
noun
noun: sympathy

1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"

2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"

The word you're looking for is kindness, not sympathy.

What? Number 2 totally works.

Using "business is business" to excuse video game character homogeneity totally demonstrates a lack of understanding between people.

Yes, because people have never conducted business between themselves. Therefore i couldn't possibly understand that relationship.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

I work on projects that connect our employees with the community. If I thought a game could do that they would certainly support me.

Your "business is business" assertion does demonstrate your deft understand on corporation culture and business practices.

You keep stating "Business is Business" as though i actually ever used those words. Though I'll follow through on it i suppose. At least then maybe you'll make a point against this strawman you want to battle so much. Community outreach is good PR. Good PR is in the interests of your banks profits, no matter how much you want to pretend its entirely altruistic. People like to think that a company they give money to gives a damn about them on some level. It is in your employer's interest to make sure you drink the kool aid, because you will do a better job of fooling shills if you're one as well. I'm guessing you must be very good at your job.

Haha! Whatever you say Glenn Beck. Drink the kool aid. Really guy? You sound like a conspiracy crackpot.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

*sigh*

sym·pa·thy
ˈsimpəTHē
noun
noun: sympathy

1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"

2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"

The word you're looking for is kindness, not sympathy.

What? Number 2 totally works.

Using "business is business" to excuse video game character homogeneity totally demonstrates a lack of understanding between people.

Yes, because people have never conducted business between themselves. Therefore i couldn't possibly understand that relationship.

I really have no idea where you're coming from. Did I do a misquote? My problem in this thread has been using the excuse of "business is business - profits are king" to dismiss concerns from women and gays about video game character homogeneity.