Homosexuality Is Unnatural

[Snowy Rainbow]

I'm sure we've all heard that statement before, be it in a debate of sexual morality, a legal discussion of marriage and what defines a couple, or a religious quarrel - the opinion that homosexuality is unnatural gets around. But have you ever stopped to really think about it?

My grandmother and I got into a bit off a debate today on just this topic. She's always assumed I was heterosexual (though in reality I'm more bisexual/pansexual) so the revelation that I have a fair bit of a crush on a guy I've met on this site was something of a shock to her. She's very... wrong. To her, anyone that isn't white, middle class and heterosexual is open game to insult. In her world, "darks", as she puts it, are responsible for most crime, poor people are all useless and sexism exists to keep men and women in the roles they were made to exist in. Yeaahh... So when she asked me if I was seeing anyone, "Well, I actually have something of a crush on this awesome guy I met online" probably wasn't the response she wanted. Needless to say, she started in with how wrong it was for me to say that and how homosexuality was disgusting. I kept my cool and defended my sexuality with a level headed vocabulary, but to no avail. The argument itself is not really relevant, so I'll skip to the point.

"Gays are unnatural."​

I didn't think much of it at the time -- brushing it off as more of her hateful lies -- but looking back on it tonight, I must wonder... Says who? And how? Why? Are bisexuals, homosexuals, nonsexuals, pansexuals and whatever else somehow supernatural? Aliens? The usual support one offers up for the unnatural argument is something along the lines of "animals aren't gay". We'll forget for a moment that humans are animals and take them on their point. Animals can be, are, and will continue to be gay. There have been many documented cases of homosexual pairings between wild animals. The notion that it doesn't happen is simply not true. Gay wildlife is indeed very rare, but it happens and it's perfectly natural.

The other argument is that it's a choice and, aside from the stupidity of that notion, would't that make it natural? If someone's brain compels them to be homosexual, despite you not seeing it as normal, wouldn't that be natural? Or are their brains influenced by aliens too? Lol.

I dunno. I just wanted to get that off my chest.

What do ya'll think?

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

You know, the title of this thread could've been slightly more subtle, just sayin'.

My view: Sexuality is like religion (bear with me here people). Everyone has their own take on it, no-one has the right to force theirs on other people, and what someone's is is no damn business of anyone else.

And don't be too hard on your gran, she's just the product of a different generation. Modern society is more liberal than the fairly rigid social structures of yesteryear.

 

[Snowy Rainbow]

You know, the title of this thread could've been slightly more subtle, just sayin'.

My view: Sexuality is like religion (bear with me here people). Everyone has one, no-one has the right to force theirs on other people, and no matter what someone's is is no damn business of anyone else.

And don't be too hard on your gran, she's just the product of a different generation. Modern society is more liberal than the fairly rigid social structures of yesteryear.

Oh I'm not hard on her. I find her opinions on certain things horrendously outdated and repugnant, but she's done great by me.

 

[Klumpfot]

You know, the title of this thread could've been slightly more subtle, just sayin'.

My view: Sexuality is like religion (bear with me here people). Everyone has one, no-one has the right to force theirs on other people, and what someone's is is no damn business of anyone else.

And don't be too hard on your gran, she's just the product of a different generation. Modern society is more liberal than the fairly rigid social structures of yesteryear.

A few objections; not everyone has a religion and you are not born into one. In terms of analogy, sexuality is closer to race.

OT: I have met people who tried to argue the point that XXsexuality is unnatural. My response is generally that they should abandon everything they own (including clothes and sight correction) and go live in the wild, far away from civilization.

 

[Snowy Rainbow]

OT: I have met people who tried to argue the point that XXsexuality is unnatural. My response is generally that they should abandon everything they own (including clothes and sight correction) and go live in the wild, far away from civilization.

Ha. Good point. Quite funny and true.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Humanity on a whole is unnatural.

And thank God for that!

 

[viranimus]

Unnatural no.

Your just encountering a previous generation that was not as accepting as homosexuals.

As for the gay animal claim, I never could understand that. I can understand the potential for humans to be gay because well, we have sentience. Complex thoughts can allow us to consider adverse and strange possibilities. But why the hell would anyone point to animals being gay as a positive example. When it happens its not as if its some sort of mutual love and appreciation and typically has more in common with prison rape.

So why exactly would anyone want to point to animals as their saving grace when there are plenty of other opinions that could be made seems really, well dumb. About as dumb as the religious claiming that god loves all his children, but its against Gods will and thus abomination. The same goes for advocates claiming any religious/moral argument is inherently wrong.


Anyway... pointing out animals as a justification doesnt work because animals do stupid shit. There are plenty of other ways of justifying it, so why not use one of them?

Edit: I guess I didnt learn my lesson last time.

 

[Sarcastic_Applause]

thats all that she represents in my mind as well: Redundant and Archaic ideas of races, religions, etc; fair enough that she didnt go hardcore traditionalist on you (throwing holy water on you to pray out the 'gay'). I can't really think of much else to say than those beliefs being the workings of the old world, that being said, my grandparents are the same way. There's nothing really we can do; it's in their upbringing that they see that as the norm, just as we see things like that liberally today.

 

[dillinger88]

You know, the title of this thread could've been slightly more subtle, just sayin'.

My view: Sexuality is like religion (bear with me here people). Everyone has one, no-one has the right to force theirs on other people, and what someone's is is no damn business of anyone else.

And don't be too hard on your gran, she's just the product of a different generation. Modern society is more liberal than the fairly rigid social structures of yesteryear.

Natural - Adjective: Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

Homosexuality occurs in animals, thus nature.* http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowledge/isbn/item5706975/?site_locale=en_GB

Ergo, homosexuality is natural.

End of argument.

EDIT: Missquote. :/


* I know this is somewhat under debate. Mainly conservative and religious sects disagree the most (Obvious, much?). Though all the evidence points to it existing. Infact, my two female gerbils mount each other all the time. Not sure why they think they're dudes, but the point still stands.

 

[Sandacious]

When people say homosexuality is unnatural I suspect what they mean is "it's not evolutionarily selected for", because cooked meat, medicine, houses, clothes, electric lighting, transportation and farming can all be said to be unnatural in the strictest sense and people don't persecute proponents of those. I think the term "unnatural" is unclear to the point of meaninglessness anyway.

The whole business of not passing on one's genes as a homosexual is something I've heard as an argument for why family members might be against it. However, I read an interesting article about homosexuality and evolution, and it's here:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13674-evolution-myths-natural-selection-cannot-explain-homosexuality.html

 

[Snowy Rainbow]

Unnatural no.

Your just encountering a previous generation that was not as accepting as homosexuals.

As for the gay animal claim, I never could understand that. I can understand the potential for humans to be gay because well, we have sentience. Complex thoughts can allow us to consider adverse and strange possibilities. But why the hell would anyone point to animals being gay as a positive example. When it happens its not as if its some sort of mutual love and appreciation and typically has more in common with prison rape.

So why exactly would anyone want to point to animals as their saving grace when there are plenty of other opinions that could be made seems really, well dumb. About as dumb as the religious claiming that god loves all his children, but its against Gods will and thus abomination. The same goes for advocates claiming any religious/moral argument is inherently wrong.


Anyway... pointing out animals as a justification doesnt work because animals do stupid shit. There are plenty of other ways of justifying it, so why not use one of them?

That's a very good point. A famous comedian once said something along the lines of "I'm going to get down on my knees and hump the leg of the next person that says homosexuality is unnatural. If we want to judge right and wrong by wild animal behavior, it seems like a fitting greeting."

XD

 

[g_hughes]

Apart from that I wouldn't ever say it's a choice, I completely agree.
My usual argument is that
'Homosexuality has been observed and documented in over 300 species. Homophobia only exist in one.'
I'm lucky enough that all the people that know I'm bisexual have been supportive or, more common, just couldn't give a damn

 

[Griffolion]

The concept of 'natural' is one that changes from perception to perception. From a biological standpoint male and female come together to make a child. Homosexual couples cannot do that without the help of an outside party of opposite gender. So aside from that biological issue, to me it's incredibly natural because it happens in nature. Besides, does it even matter? They are people at the end of the day, just like heterosexual individuals.

 

[The Mehster]

Well, your grandmother is, to put it as kindly as possible, a relic from another era. I take that homosexuality is a choice nowadays. Now, nobody truly knows why a person is homosexual, maybe there's a gene, maybe it's a disorder(sure hope not, eh?), maybe it IS aliens trying to lessen the amount of people on the earth, we'll never know. I personally think that sexuality is very subconscious. I think it's what a child is exposed to when they are developing. My parents are very conservative and very protective of what media I took in when I was younger so, even though I played with a barbie when I was 2-4, I'm a heterosexual.

 

[dillinger88]

*snip*

Because it's the simplest and most obvious example. Sometimes the simplest arguments are the best as even the most simple of people can understand and there's no room for twisting it? Just sayin'.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

My view? If both people are of legal age, it doesn't matter who you find sexually attractive and have sexual relations with. I hope that the majority comes to accept this in the future. I view fundamentalist Abrahamic religions to be an obstacle in this path. But I have no problem with the Abrahamic religions as long as they don't try to impose their views on the majority. And that is my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[Snowy Rainbow]

Infact, my two female gerbils mount each other all the time. Not sure why they think they're dudes, but the point still stands.

Oh my god. I laughed so hard at that. Thank you XD

When people say homosexuality is unnatural I suspect what they mean is "it's not evolutionarily selected for", because cooked meat, medicine, houses, clothes, electric lighting, transportation and farming can all be said to be unnatural in the strictest sense and people don't persecute proponents of those. I think the term "unnatural" is unclear to the point of meaninglessness anyway.

The whole business of not passing on one's genes as a homosexual is something I've heard as an argument for why family members might be against it. However, I read an interesting article about homosexuality and evolution, and it's here:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13674-evolution-myths-natural-selection-cannot-explain-homosexuality.html

Thanks for the link. I shall read it now.

On a side note, someone on this forum the other day said something that I feel really shattered so many of the arrangements against homosexuality;

-"If everyone was gay, the human race would die. Homosexuality is unnatural."

"If everyone was female the human race would die. Women are unnatural."

Genius!

 

[Cain_Zeros]

Homosexuality could be considered abnormal, being different from the majority, but certainly not unnatural. And frankly, there are so many other things about humans that are "abnormal" that being disgusted by this particular one is just ridiculous. But of course if your grandma read this it wouldn't change her opinion in the slightest...

 

[loc978]

As at least one other person has pointed out... if homosexuality were unnatural, it would stand to reason that homo sex would not happen in the animal kingdom, where every creature acts on instinct without fail. Yet... gay octopuses! [http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/18/science/new-puzzle-on-sex-life-of-octopus.html]

 

[Jadak]

Nothing you said is wrong, but it's more a case of the people using poor terminology to describe what they think. Yes, some are just morons, but I tend to look at that argument as intended to mean "homosexuality is defect, and not how members of the species are supposed to be", in the same manner as a child born blind, colour blind, crippled, or any number of mental issues.

But, even accepting it as nothing more than a defect, a simple genetic abnormality, it's still natural. People just need to word their hate rants better.