Horizon Zero Dawn and accusations of SJW pandering: What is true, and what isn't.

[Fiona Callahan]

I have a question only semi-related to the conversation. What happened to people going outside? I mean...Blowing up over a game? Am I the only person on earth who goes "Oh look, the Main character is a she, cool. Thats different."

I don't care one way or another if everyone in a game is white, multi-colored, bright neon pink, or dressed as clowns, if the game is good, thats all thats important, My standards of "Good." are too..complex to put here in words.

So my question stands, what happened to going outside and realizing there's more to life then games?

 

[Wrex Brogan]

I have a question only semi-related to the conversation. What happened to people going outside? I mean...Blowing up over a game? Am I the only person on earth who goes "Oh look, the Main character is a she, cool. Thats different."

I don't care one way or another if everyone in a game is white, multi-colored, bright neon pink, or dressed as clowns, if the game is good, thats all thats important, My standards of "Good." are too..complex to put here in words.

So my question stands, what happened to going outside and realizing there's more to life then games?

Youtube likes and Reddit upvotes, that's what happened. Sunlight doesn't have the same ego boosting as getting randoms on the internet clicking on the latest storm in a teapot.

 

[maninahat]

I suit myself just fine, but that wasnt posted by me.

I'm sorry I apparently deleted the wrong quote line. I corrected the mistake.

This game, whilst acknowledged by the "SJW" types as being progressive by having a female protagonist, has also been criticised by the same sort for cultural appropriation [https://medium.com/@dialacina/what-we-talk-about-when-we-dont-talk-about-natives-60f4af9ef675#.du1ly1xyo]. It's almost as if what these people are asking for is a tad more complicated than token minorities and "strong female characters".

That's rather ridiculous. For me this "cultural appropriation" does not exist.
Even looking past that the authors premise seems highly questionable. I highly doubt any of the professional review authors wanted to make any commentary on actual indigenous people at all simply because this has nothing to do with the game.
The game borrows the aesthetics and some cultural elements from a lot of different old cultures not just one, it's not even from only one continent as far as I can tell. Not to mention there were no "unified native American people". North America was full of different independent tribes: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianer_Nordamerikas#/media/File:Langs_N.Amer_Deutsch.png
While the Nora and Banuk certainly seem mostly inspired by the tribes of North America the Carja or Oseram do not appear to me to be based on that. There I think we have more Aztec, Egyptian and Ottoman influences.
Kind of ironic that she talks about cultural approbation and then lumps all these different tribes and cultures together.
Then there is the lore of the game itself. Which I won't spoil.

I also like that responses that tell her she tries rather hard to be offended when there is no issue are liked more than the ones she highlighted in support of her position.

As for more complex: I don't think so. This article sounds like the progressive stack at work.

Nowhere does she say there is a unified native American culture, so I don't see why you are trying to suggest she is somehow more in the wrong for pointing out the cultural ignorance of well meaning game devs. It sounds like you are just trying to let them off by saying that she (an actual native American) is the one doing the stereotyping of native americans. All she's done is say that games should actually consult native Americans before using native american themed iconography, if they are hoping to get it right. That sounds perfectly reasonable. As an English person, I find lazy approximations of English people in games and movies annoying as well.

 

[Ishigami]

Okay so which tribe does she mean when she says "we"?
And from which tribe did HZD actually borrow it's ideas?
And why would it be necessary to contact descendants of people who in no way shape or form live the way the used to be in order to portrait some fictional people that in no way shape or form live like that anyway and are in no way related to them?

This is no documentary, it?s Sci-Fi.
Suggesting that the devs are culturally ignorant is a long shoot considering she, you and me know jack shit about them?

 

[McElroy]

It's almost as if what these people are asking for is a tad more complicated than token minorities and "strong female characters".

Well, in Finland the indigenous Sami people sorta did away with the discussion by claiming (as in one person of authority did) the aesthetic - real or fake - is theirs. Also since they have cultural autonomy mandated by the constitution it is nowadays actually illegal (though I dunno how it would be enforced) for simple Finns to portray Sami people. The result comes as no surprise; they have practically zero representation in mainstream media. It's possible because only 6000 Sami live in Finland. Native Americans are numerous and historically extremely well known around the world. In this regard they are donezo.

 

[Zhukov]

All she's done is say that games should actually consult native Americans before using native american themed iconography, if they are hoping to get it right.

Why?

If they were making a game set in a native American society then sure, it would behoove them to try and get the details correct. If they were making an educational product for the purposes of teaching people about native Americans then obviously they should make it accurate.

However, they're making a game about post-post-apocalyptic robot-dinosaur hunters who dress in leather, use bows and decorate some of their stuff with feathers.

What exactly is there to "get right"?

 

[Tsun Tzu]

It's a new IP, isn't it?

Not sure why it being SJWy or not is even a point of contention. Let them do what they want.

That was sort of a major point of GG, wasn't it?

For those folks to make their own stuff rather than forcibly altering existing series/censoring other titles?

So...what's the gripe?

 

[maninahat]

All she's done is say that games should actually consult native Americans before using native american themed iconography, if they are hoping to get it right.

Why?

If they were making a game set in a native American society then sure, it would behoove them to try and get the details correct. If they were making an educational product for the purposes of teaching people about native Americans then obviously they should make it accurate.

However, they're making a game about post-post-apocalyptic robot-dinosaur hunters who dress in leather, use bows and decorate some of their stuff with feathers.

What exactly is there to "get right"?

Well the link talks about how the game throws around words like "Braves" and "savages", which are somewhat specific to native Americans and words they are a tad sensitive about. Also, we've seen with things like Avatar what happens when Hollywood tries to do futuristic, native american inspired races; it often boils down to them sticking some feathers and war paint on things, characterising them as noble savages, and generally creating a condescending, if well-meaning, vision of a culture that somehow has refused to evolve beyond bows and arrows.

 

[somonels]

Can you stop circulating sjw-discourse chainletters, that'd be greeat.

 

[veloper]

It's a new IP, isn't it?

Not sure why it being SJWy or not is even a point of contention. Let them do what they want.

That was sort of a major point of GG, wasn't it?

For those folks to make their own stuff rather than forcibly altering existing series/censoring other titles?

So...what's the gripe?

The OP doesn't appear to be calling for a boycott or anything. Reads more like an elaborate way of telling us: story is shit because it's pandering by committee.

The idea is still that everyone may produce whatever they want, but players can still call the result shit, or great, or anything in between.

 

[Zhukov]

Well the link talks about how the game throws around words like "Braves" and "savages", which are somewhat specific to native Americans and words they are a tad sensitive about.

Actually, it's true that they use the term "braves". So fair point there.

"Savages" is used in-universe by members of some of the more industrialized societies as an insult towards those less so. Which as far as I'm aware is similar to how it was used in the real world, no?

Also, we've seen with things like Avatar what happens when Hollywood tries to do futuristic, native american inspired races; it often boils down to them sticking some feathers and war paint on things, characterising them as noble savages, and generally creating a condescending, if well-meaning, vision of a culture that somehow has refused to evolve beyond bows and arrows.

I kinda agree here. At least in that I thought Avatar was a painfully white interpretation of a pre-industrial society.

However I'm still not sure why taking inspiration or visual cues from a given culture when making up a fictional culture that is clearly not trying to be an accurate depiction of reality obligates one to... umm... actually, I'm not even sure what exactly the obligation is.

If I write a fantasy story in which some soldiers wear hoplite-esque crests on their helmets (for no other reason than I think they look cool) then does this suddenly mean I have to do something else in order to avoid infringing upon the Greeks?

Also, this cultural appropriation bullshit seems to only apply when the creator is not born of the culture being drawn from. So does that mean my fictional not-hoplites are fine because I'm like a quarter Greek? Or do I have to be at least half Greek before I'm allowed?

 

[Ishigami]

Well the link talks about how the game throws around words like "Braves" and "savages", which are somewhat specific to native Americans and words they are a tad sensitive about. Also, we've seen with things like Avatar what happens when Hollywood tries to do futuristic, native american inspired races; it often boils down to them sticking some feathers and war paint on things, characterising them as noble savages, and generally creating a condescending, if well-meaning, vision of a culture that somehow has refused to evolve beyond bows and arrows.

While this might be true for the noble savages stereotype it is not true for the term savage by itself.
Tribes all around the world have been called savage by western people.
Honestly I didn't even know "braves" was used to describe a native American warrior. But apparently it was, you learn something every day. Not sure why you think there is a negative denotation to it since it bascially means courageous.
Let me just tell you why it is used in HZD but beware that it is a MASSIVE story spoiler:

Spoiler

Ted Faro erases the archives of the Apollo sub-function, which purpose it is to educate the new humans. Therefore, the newly born humans are raised by the Eleuthia sub-function, which was tasked with creating and raising new humans from DNA samples, alone and without extended knowledge. Once the life support of the cradles run dry Gaia, the primary AI of the Zero Dawn system, skips the dysfunctional Apollo and releases the humans into the world as a last ditch effort to save the primary system funtion: To repopulate the world. Eleuthia says the new humans goodbye and tells them "you have to be brave" before opening the vault doors and shutting down forever.

That Avatar is condensing towards native Americans is news to me. I always thought it was condensing toward capitalism.
It still begs the question why it matters. Avatar is no documentary either. Sorry but for me entertainment dos not need to reflect reality.
I think there a lot of collectivism going on here. What is said about one person is projected to a group. That's why this topic started isn't it? Something happens to some male characters therefore it says something about all men.
I think the use of stereotypes isn't inherently bad or wrong. I mean everything has been redone to the point it can be categorized as a stereotype. It's just you have also have a character. Someone can be at the core a "noble savage" to the story or narrative but only if that's all it is then it is bad writing. However, if it is supplemented by personality, agenda, arc etc. then there is no problem that the basic function is that of a "noble savage" because it is still a character.

 

[maninahat]

snip

I kinda agree here. At least in that I thought Avatar was a painfully white interpretation of a pre-industrial society.

However I'm still not sure why taking inspiration or visual cues from a given culture when making up a fictional culture that is clearly not trying to be an accurate depiction of reality obligates one to... umm... actually, I'm not even sure what exactly the obligation is.

If I write a fantasy story in which some soldiers wear hoplite-esque crests on their helmets (for no other reason than I think they look cool) then does this suddenly mean I have to do something else in order to avoid infringing upon the Greeks?

Also, this cultural appropriation bullshit seems to only apply when the creator is not born of the culture being drawn from. So does that mean my fictional not-hoplites are fine because I'm like a quarter Greek? Or do I have to be at least half Greek before I'm allowed?

Good points. I think there are a couple of differences though, the main one being that you could very easily get away with using hoplite imagery because, well, hoplites and ancient Greece have been dead for thousands of years. There are none around to claim you are misrepresenting them or pinching their culture. That also means we don't have a concrete idea over what exactly ancient warfare/culture was like, so people would forgive inaccuracy. Also, and this seems to matter a lot, a lot of Westerners have more in common with the ancient Classical cultures, so we are less likely to come across as outsiders when depicting it.

Meanwhile, native Americans do exist, and it frustrates some of them when they get represented by broad stereotypes, or have their cultural stuff mishandled. I want to compare it to Father Ted; granted they don't refer to it as appropriation, but Irish people tend to be annoyed by lazy, inaccurate stereotypes of the Irish. Father Ted is about the same culture, but it is an insider's view, poking fun at different stereotypes by the people who are familiar with them.

 

[Nature Guardian]

Here we go.

You can't have a female protagonist that isn't even showing her "assets" without being accused of SJW-pandering.

This is why we can't have nice things. Eventually authors get fed up with this and go back to the white male lead and the secondary female characters with big breasts and skimpy clothing.