Pretty much this. You go try riding a unicycle and let me know how if goes, and then I'll tell you why people who're new to gaming have difficulty with the controller.Armored Prayer said:
How can some people have no clue how to use a controller?
- Thread starter floopdawoop
- Start date
You know, it's more than just a lack of practice. It's because games nowadays are much, much more complex. When I first picked up a controller, it was the megadrive controller. It had... lemme count. 8 buttons. on sonic, 3 of those buttons did -the same thing- The rest were mounted on a d-pad. Right for right, left for left, up did nothing of us, and down let you spin. The game had one goal. Progress to the rightmost side of the screen. You could use -one direction- and a jump button and win eventually.
Compare that to Gears of war. You've got 2 sticks, one for forward/back/left/right, and one for controlling what you're looking at. A button for reload, a button for fire, a button for dash, a button for cover, a button for alternate fire, a button for change weapon, a button for melee, a button for use. Some of these buttons will be the same button used context-sensitively. The aim is to say, not just move to the rightmost side of the screen, but through an abandoned building where enemies will jump out in a full range of view, and instead of jumping at them, you have to take cover, go for headshots, watch for flankers, etc. I, and many others, were eased into that sort of gameplay. Newbies nowadays haven't just had less time to practice, they're being dumped in the deep end with a massively more complex systems than most gamers grew up with.
Compare that to Gears of war. You've got 2 sticks, one for forward/back/left/right, and one for controlling what you're looking at. A button for reload, a button for fire, a button for dash, a button for cover, a button for alternate fire, a button for change weapon, a button for melee, a button for use. Some of these buttons will be the same button used context-sensitively. The aim is to say, not just move to the rightmost side of the screen, but through an abandoned building where enemies will jump out in a full range of view, and instead of jumping at them, you have to take cover, go for headshots, watch for flankers, etc. I, and many others, were eased into that sort of gameplay. Newbies nowadays haven't just had less time to practice, they're being dumped in the deep end with a massively more complex systems than most gamers grew up with.
Spare me your insults, I have every right to withhold money from people who are trying to fleece me like a sheep. If you choose to bend over for the shears (or worse), that's just as much your choice. To misquote Voltaire, I have to respect your right to choose, but I don't have to respect the choice you made.Owyn_Merrilin said:
Re your actual points, the original examples you're quoting were for 4-directional games. Later they went to (gasp) 8-directional joysticks! Wow! And yes, those worked great for their intended platforms, Atari and such, and for the PC clones of the same games, hence their replication for the PC platform.
Fast forward a few years to the dawn of the big consoles. At that time, mice, real joysticks and keyboards were prevalent and inexpensive, because PC gaming had moved game technology forward by lightyears, especially in the area of 3-D graphics and processing technology. The console makers had a problem - PC games were better than the games on their platform, and PCs were utility machines besides - they could even browse that Internet thingy which was just getting going.
So their solution was the obvious one - crank up their platforms to do games better than the PC, and without all of the technical support problems.
But then they needed a business model. And their choice? Underprice their consoles so they could wage an advertising war against each other (in all fairness, it only takes one to start a war, I think it was MS), and OVERPRICE the games and controllers. Classic consumer sucker play.
But there was a problem with that strategy. PC gaming controllers such as mice, keyboards (even specialty numpad controllers) and joysticks worked great, but were all pretty cheap and universally compatible. So if console makers went with those, they could also be used on any platform, meaning a highly competitive (and non price-controlled) market for controllers.
Never mind that the controllers would work fine (mice and PC joysticks were actually far superior to console controllers - still are, actually) and could be supplemented with gamepads for games which would benefit from those. The manufacturers couldn't control the pricing, so PC-compatible controllers didn't fit the master business plan to sucker as much money out of the market as possible.
But the old standbys, the console controllers, THOSE the manufacturers controlled completely. Proprietary interfaces and everything. Muhahahaha. MUHAHAHAHAHAHA.
And here we are. After how many years of console gamers being simultaneously sheared of both money and the opportunity to play with their choice of controllers, consoles are now starting to come out with USB ports. Why, one even has a mouse. What a win for you!
Let me know when those controllers actually work with the games, ok? Then you'll finally be caught up to where us PC gamers have been all along. And I for one will be HAPPY to see it.
I'd suggest that if your theory was correct, they'd just have made a PS2 mouse and keyboard, with connectors that only fitted the PS2, and some kinda coding to stop converters to and from PC. Instead we have PC adaptors to use the PS2 controller on PC, and the Xbox 360 is natively supported in many games now, becausew00tage said:
Of the original topic, I'd relate it best to touch typing, take anyone who can't touch type, and cover the keyboard and their hands with a sheet, and get em to type their name, then laugh at their ineptitude.
On one hand you have the advantage of maybe 12 or so 'keys' instead of 105-ish, but to counter than, on keyboards, P generally means 'put a P on the screen', on a joypad, X can mean almost anything, and the joysticks are just mind blowing to someone who's never played a game before.
My mother likes card games and bejeweled and the like, but she absolutely cannot get her head around moving in a 1st person environment, Hell, she struggles with basic left to right platformers.
She's a smart woman in many ways, just technology isn't her thing, I can't make a garden grow to save my life, and my knowledge of geography is minimal, and I sure as hell can't cook, so I can't knock her for it, when I know nothing about things she is really good at.
How is it uncomfy? There exactly the same except the 360 pad is like a sumo and odd placed sticks.believer258 said:
If your using the PS3 pad right, there is no difference in trigger. The fact the curvature is opposite on the pads is irrelavent. In fact you have to move your fingers about an inch from the "sweet spot" to the bumper above it, PS3 there is next to no movement.
I have only played on a xbox once and i only needded 2 minutes. I just try buttons that look important and look what the avatar does. In 2 minutes I know the basic. Than i start pushing combining buttoms and sticks combos that look obvious like jump and attack. I think most people aren't don't so well the first time because they get stressed and try to learn it to fast. Just take tell them to master one buttom and than try another one.
The use of a controller we have nowadays derivates completely from the older generations; we have grown conditioned to assimilate the position and sometimes even purpose of each button, due to years of really subtle changes between control schemes; this is partially the reason why controllers such as the NES' are so laughably simplistic, they are one of the very few radical changes in the shape and use of the devices, then from there and on, we can trace the story of how they slowly became more and more complex. This is why, I suppose, Sony had most games on the Playstation be available for D-Pad movement; because forcing people who already grew fond of the little gray rectangle to use a completely different way to move the character would make them uncomfortable. Eventually, all players switched to the analog sticks because of how intuitive they were, and by the time the PS2 came out, developers knew that most users had grown fond of analogic movement, and started using the D-Pad as just another set of buttons which were for some reason shaped as arrows. Chances are, if you were to take a person who was immensely skilled on Contra but then stopped playing games, and asked him to try out the newest Xbox game, he'd have an extremely hard time getting to understand the way the controls work, because they didn't play through this evolution of controllers and, therefore, never went through the transformation into analog control. Now, ask a person who has never picked up a game in his life, and the problem becomes even bigger, seeing how they've never even controlled a character before.
This is actually a really interesting design challenge; how could one design a control scheme that manages to not alienate any type of user, both those that are skilled with the default biases, and those that have no idea how they work, but the main problem is that we might think we've reached a very definitive conclussion, although soon we will find another concept to integrate to our list of control functions, and furthermore separate the new players; maybe we should attempt to tilt out aim a little more in the direction of intuition, rather than that of facilitation.
This is actually a really interesting design challenge; how could one design a control scheme that manages to not alienate any type of user, both those that are skilled with the default biases, and those that have no idea how they work, but the main problem is that we might think we've reached a very definitive conclussion, although soon we will find another concept to integrate to our list of control functions, and furthermore separate the new players; maybe we should attempt to tilt out aim a little more in the direction of intuition, rather than that of facilitation.
ITS A CONSOLE CONSPIRACY!!! I SWEARS IT!!!w00tage said:
but seriously how can anyone not know how to use a controller (if my 85 year old grandfather can play super mario 64 fucking anyone can), i can see complications with dual stick controllers, honestly i had a bit of trouble moving from the N64 controller to the PS2 dual stick shooters like max payne or initially halo for x box but eventually i got over it
i think its a common misconception that all console shooters have aim assist ex. BF1943, BFBC2, and honestly all of the people i play CoDBO with would rather have the magical see thru wall auto assist turned off, its my thought that if no one has it then everyone is on a level playing field and i think auto assist is an addition that takes away from shooters not the other way around.
TLDR - if my grandfather can pick up and use a controller with a few hours practice....anyone can.
Sometimes things just aren't as easy for some people. I, for example, have never been able to play Guitar Hero for some odd reason. I just... can't. Now, I can play DDR with a reasonable proficientcy, so its not the timing or ability to follow the on-screen cueues. Its just the controller....
I think its the same sort of thing for other people. Perhaps you should try introducing people to 2D games, or 3D games with a third-person stapled-to-your-back camera at first.
For the first month or so of owning a 3d FPS, I just couldn't quite understand what was going on in an FPS; I think it takes a certain sort of spacial comprehension and learned ability to perceive distance with a monoscopic viewpoint.
My point? People who can't instantly pick up a controller aren't stupid or inept, they simply think differently and take longer to acclimate to certain things.
It actually sounds like a magnificent opportunity to do SCIENCE.
*Sticks wires on everybody's heads*
I think its the same sort of thing for other people. Perhaps you should try introducing people to 2D games, or 3D games with a third-person stapled-to-your-back camera at first.
For the first month or so of owning a 3d FPS, I just couldn't quite understand what was going on in an FPS; I think it takes a certain sort of spacial comprehension and learned ability to perceive distance with a monoscopic viewpoint.
My point? People who can't instantly pick up a controller aren't stupid or inept, they simply think differently and take longer to acclimate to certain things.
It actually sounds like a magnificent opportunity to do SCIENCE.
*Sticks wires on everybody's heads*
Pick up a golf club and hit a ball 400yds. Not everything is easy to pickup and be an expert at.
Try playing Metal Gear Solid or Ape Escape on a keyboard and mouse, and call me back when you're able to access all of the features of the game (hint: you can't.) While you're at it, try playing a 2D platformer or a fighting game with a mouse and keyboard. Pretty awkward, huh? I've been playing PC games longer than I've been playing console games, I don't even own a current gen console, I am not a "console tard." I do recognize that some genres require a specific controller -- sometimes it's a mouse and keyboard, sometimes it's a gamepad, heck, once in a blue moon you still see a game that works great with a flight stick. Remember those? I'm not going to deny that console manufacturers overprice their controllers and games, but that has nothing to do with the reason they use controllers instead of mice and keyboards. As SenseOfTumor put it, if mice and keyboards really were objectively better for everything consoles do, but the companies just wanted to overcharge customers, they would make mice and keyboards that only worked with their systems, and make you buy one of each for each player. At console markups, that would quickly get more expensive for the consumer than multiple controllers ever would -- two parts, you see. However, this is not the case.
The real strength of the PC is that it can take any control type you throw at it, not exclusively that it has the mouse and keyboard. On my rig, I use the mouse and keyboard for first and third person games, my Xbox 360 pad for racing games, fighting games, platformers, and other traditionally console based genres, and my flightstick -- a solid mid-range Logitech from a few years back -- for flight sims, including airplanes and helicopters in the Battlefield series. If I were serious about racing games, I could even buy a steering wheel, but I don't because I play so few of those that I can't justify the purchase.
The point is, there isn't any one control setup that does everything perfectly. However, the gamepad does most things to an acceptable level, even FPS games with enough autoaim. That is why they are used for consoles; if you want your userbase to play every game on the system, it makes sense to have a control method that is at least functional for most types of games, right?
The real strength of the PC is that it can take any control type you throw at it, not exclusively that it has the mouse and keyboard. On my rig, I use the mouse and keyboard for first and third person games, my Xbox 360 pad for racing games, fighting games, platformers, and other traditionally console based genres, and my flightstick -- a solid mid-range Logitech from a few years back -- for flight sims, including airplanes and helicopters in the Battlefield series. If I were serious about racing games, I could even buy a steering wheel, but I don't because I play so few of those that I can't justify the purchase.
The point is, there isn't any one control setup that does everything perfectly. However, the gamepad does most things to an acceptable level, even FPS games with enough autoaim. That is why they are used for consoles; if you want your userbase to play every game on the system, it makes sense to have a control method that is at least functional for most types of games, right?
That last post was supposed to be quoting this. I must have hit the reply button by mistake.w00tage said:
Edit: And in case you missed in in the other post, just like you missed it in the post you quoted, I hate using anything but the mouse and keyboard for FPS games. I am a dyed in the wool PC gamer who also happens to play the occasional console game, and on the PC always picks the right controller for the job at hand, rather than stubbornly sticking with the default method. On consoles you are stuck with one method most of the time; the biggest strength of PCs when it comes to control methods is the option to use whatever happens to work best with the game at hand. I would never use a controller for TF2, but I would for Braid, and if I wanted to play a little X-Wing Alliance, I'd turn around and plug my flightstick in. The PC is about choice, not dogma.
Warning, kind of a long post (don't worry, there's pictures!).
You know, back when video games first came out they didn't have the "it's for kids" stigma that hounded the hobby in later decades. Indeed, many early arcade games were installed in bars and pizza joints because adults in their 20's and 30's often played them. Over the years however, there arose the aforementioned stigma. I feel it's no coincidence that controllers were becoming increasingly complex around the same time (I'm not saying it's the only reason, but I do believe it was a contributing factor). Take the following examples:
The Atari 2600 controller:
You can't get much more accessible than this. Just a simple joystick and one button. The learning curve is practically nil. Practically anyone can pick it up and start playing right away. No stigma yet.
The NES controller:
Still pretty straightforward. The D-Pad is a good joystick stand-in, and two main buttons instead of one opens up all sorts of new gameplay possibilities, yet still keeps things manageable for newcomers. Stigma still hasn't really taken form yet.
The SNES controller:
Here's where things start to get complicated. Now you've got four face buttons instead of two. While it's a natural development for controllers seeing as games continue to push boundaries with regards to complexity, it's starting to become a bit daunting for newcomers. It probably doesn't help that the letters assigned to the face buttons are a bit arbitrary (A and B I can understand, but what the hell's up with jumping to X and Y?). You've got shoulder buttons to worry about too, meaning you can't hold the top of the controller in a death-grip vice like some adults I've watched who get caught up in the moment (*cough*Dad*cough*).
Here's where you have to stop and actually familiarize yourself with the controller for a fair bit, which starts to build that stigma I keep harping on. After all, most busy adults with a full schedule don't want to devote their precious time to learning how to play a game they may or may not like (incidentally, I seem to remember that this was when in-game tutorials first started popping up for console titles).
N64/Playstation controllers:
Good Lord, where do I begin?
Now you've got a D-pad AND an analog stick (or sticks in the Playstation's case) AND four to six major face buttons AND at least three major buttons on the top or even tucked away underneath. The logic behind what the buttons are called make even less sense than the previous generation (A and B and FOUR different C buttons? Playstation button designations have a combination of letters and SHAPES? Were the designers high?). I think these controllers helped cement the stereotype that all gamers were kids with nothing better to do. After all, who would take the time to learn the intricacies of such a device if they could just go to the movies or watch TV?
This was also a time when consoles were experimenting with different genres and configurations, so there was a good chance you would have to re-learn the controls for practically every game. Hell, even those of us who grew up playing titles on these systems can be a bit flummoxed sometimes if we haven't played them in a while. For someone who just wants to pick up a controller and have at it, this is a daunting task indeed.
Of course those of us who kept up over the years had little problem adjusting, but you can't expect just anyone to catch on right away. This is probably why the Wii has become such a household name. Hardcore gamers might scoff at the lack of precision motion control offers, but the motions themselves are intuitive, allowing just about anybody that can wave an arm around to get in on the action right away. In that regard, it's like the Atari and NES controllers of old.
You know, back when video games first came out they didn't have the "it's for kids" stigma that hounded the hobby in later decades. Indeed, many early arcade games were installed in bars and pizza joints because adults in their 20's and 30's often played them. Over the years however, there arose the aforementioned stigma. I feel it's no coincidence that controllers were becoming increasingly complex around the same time (I'm not saying it's the only reason, but I do believe it was a contributing factor). Take the following examples:
The Atari 2600 controller:
You can't get much more accessible than this. Just a simple joystick and one button. The learning curve is practically nil. Practically anyone can pick it up and start playing right away. No stigma yet.
The NES controller:
Still pretty straightforward. The D-Pad is a good joystick stand-in, and two main buttons instead of one opens up all sorts of new gameplay possibilities, yet still keeps things manageable for newcomers. Stigma still hasn't really taken form yet.
The SNES controller:
Here's where things start to get complicated. Now you've got four face buttons instead of two. While it's a natural development for controllers seeing as games continue to push boundaries with regards to complexity, it's starting to become a bit daunting for newcomers. It probably doesn't help that the letters assigned to the face buttons are a bit arbitrary (A and B I can understand, but what the hell's up with jumping to X and Y?). You've got shoulder buttons to worry about too, meaning you can't hold the top of the controller in a death-grip vice like some adults I've watched who get caught up in the moment (*cough*Dad*cough*).
Here's where you have to stop and actually familiarize yourself with the controller for a fair bit, which starts to build that stigma I keep harping on. After all, most busy adults with a full schedule don't want to devote their precious time to learning how to play a game they may or may not like (incidentally, I seem to remember that this was when in-game tutorials first started popping up for console titles).
N64/Playstation controllers:
Good Lord, where do I begin?
Now you've got a D-pad AND an analog stick (or sticks in the Playstation's case) AND four to six major face buttons AND at least three major buttons on the top or even tucked away underneath. The logic behind what the buttons are called make even less sense than the previous generation (A and B and FOUR different C buttons? Playstation button designations have a combination of letters and SHAPES? Were the designers high?). I think these controllers helped cement the stereotype that all gamers were kids with nothing better to do. After all, who would take the time to learn the intricacies of such a device if they could just go to the movies or watch TV?
This was also a time when consoles were experimenting with different genres and configurations, so there was a good chance you would have to re-learn the controls for practically every game. Hell, even those of us who grew up playing titles on these systems can be a bit flummoxed sometimes if we haven't played them in a while. For someone who just wants to pick up a controller and have at it, this is a daunting task indeed.
Of course those of us who kept up over the years had little problem adjusting, but you can't expect just anyone to catch on right away. This is probably why the Wii has become such a household name. Hardcore gamers might scoff at the lack of precision motion control offers, but the motions themselves are intuitive, allowing just about anybody that can wave an arm around to get in on the action right away. In that regard, it's like the Atari and NES controllers of old.