How did The Escapist's culture change so much?

[crimson5pheonix]

What do you mean? The community has been changing all the time. The Escapist culture is different now than it was a year ago, which was different from the year before that, which was different from the year before that, etc. If you want to know why GG stuff is on here, you can blame the Escapist culture that questions things and a website that will let people discuss topics. That's one thing that hasn't changed.

 

[tilmoph]

I posted a link to an Escapist article on my facebook wall and got a response along the lines of "eww, the escapist is a bunch of gamergate creeps" and it got me thinking. I've been coming to this site since back when it was an online magazine, I've been a paying subscriber for years, but somehow I'd missed the transformation taking place.

I felt that it was a safe place, where we weren't like the people on Joystiq or PC Gamer, we were more civil, more considerate. The Escapist was a place where a comic like WHITE GUY DEFENSE FORCE GO! ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/10597-WHITE-GUY-DEFENSE-FORCE-GO ) could be run with a minimum of controversy, where there were people like Movie Bob who could give more analysis to a movie than just "EXPLOSION GOOD".

Now I look at the list of popular forum posts and they're all about how men are oppressed, how women are stupid, exactly the sort of stuff that I'd loved this site for avoiding. How did the site's culture change so fast? Is it a coarsening of the gaming community at large, or is it just the new people? Was I wrong to think that this site was ever any different than all the others?

I've noticed a shift as well, but I don't see the same shift you do. What I'm seeing is a move towards a bigger range of ideas being represented in different proportions. Earlier, this was definitely an academic progressive oriented site (when matters got serious), with a smaller representation of left libertarians, right libertarians, conservatives, moderates, and old style liberals. More recently, the progressive wing is nearly tied with the old left, left libertarian, and moderates. In other words, there isn't any factional dominance or even a strong leaning. The progressives are still here, of course, though some have fled for more accommodating pastures. Conversely, the other factions have started to see the escapist as the accommodating pastures, with a net result of more perspectives having more proponents.

Now, I can respect that you are probably not seeing it like this (given your summary of the GID threads, which I think doesn't really give credit to the many sub arguments occurring), and I do freely grant that if your looking for a specific viewpoint to be the reigning champ, these forums probably aren't going to be your bag. That applies to most ideologies. But for myself, I prefer things how they are now, with every faction/tribe/whatever having their view on a given subject getting airtime and being challenged.

Plus, the bulk of threads across all forums aren't political at all, so it's not like the forums are in a state of constant war. Plenty of silly or non political, non controversy threads to be had.

 

[The Artificially Prolonged]

Too much negative goings on over the last few years have taken their toll. Most people who remember the more level headed days and disagree/are neutral/not arsed in the slightest about the current "industry issues" have either left for new pastures or retreated to user groups/forum games.

 

[Zontar]

The Quinnconspiracy happened, turned into Gamergate, which spends its time complaining about Tubmlr boogeymen and calling people "Social Justice Warriors" over the smallest of reasons. For example, while not explicitly stated as being from GG, there's two different threads on this forum in this past week which called acknowledging gay people exist a "SJW" move. But generally Gamergate spends a vast majority of it's time getting offended at everything and talking about how oppressed they are.

For some reason the Escapist bent over backwards (changing rules, giving them their own forum section) to accommodate this.

If you where to look back, you'd see that we never asked for that and did not want it, and after it was clear it was here to stay simple adapted to it. As I recall, it was people who where against GamerGate who wanted us to be relegated to our own subforum, and it was only after they got just that that they started to complain about us getting our own subforum.

In an unrelated coincidence, a bunch of Escapist content creators left and this new guy, Brandon Morse, got hired. A guy well know for writing articles about how being gay is a choice and making a bunch of transphobic tweets.

Given some of the former showrunners here (Sterling and Bob come to mind) that isn't anything special, remarkable or even noteworthy. Or are we forgetting about the fact that before 2011 both where pretty racist and sexist guys on twitter, and arguable still are but in a different way then before.

So yeah, unfortunately OP this place is different from what it used to be and you wont have to look far to see it. There's a reason why you got that response on Facebook, and why the Escapist is viewed as being a GG haven.

Really? Because outside of third hand accounts and a video by a guy who is pro-GG I've never seen anyone outright call this site pro-GG, and if that is the case it's certainly not a perception that has been earned through the site's actions any more then YouTube should be considered a site that's pro-Atheist.

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

Now I look at the list of popular forum posts and they're all about how men are oppressed, how women are stupid, exactly the sort of stuff that I'd loved this site for avoiding. How did the site's culture change so fast? Is it a coarsening of the gaming community at large, or is it just the new people? Was I wrong to think that this site was ever any different than all the others?

From what I've gathered most other gaming websites told Gamgergaters to piss off and the Escapist didn't. Also there's Alexander Maxis who owns the website and is rather pro-Gamgergate. Those Gamergate interviews this website had back when all this shit started, they were done by him. He also interviewed Adam Baldwin where it became pretty clear he supported Gamergate. So the people who used those other websites left and came here.

Now we're at the stage where The Escapist is having wide spread lay-offs/people leaving and are hiring people like Brandon Morse who's a transphobe.

 

[Tiger King]

So yeah, unfortunately OP this place is different from what it used to be and you wont have to look far to see it. There's a reason why you got that response on Facebook, and why the Escapist is viewed as being a GG haven.

I think some people have always disliked the escapist, I googled 'what do people think of escapist users' a few years back (or something along those lines) and I found a forum where a lot of very bitter sounding people were bitching about the forum here. The attitude I got/read was that they thought we were all arrogant, wannabe pseudo intellectuals.
Not sure how relevant to the topic this story is or even the point (apart from haters gunna hate).

 

[one squirrel]

Coarsening of the gaming community, ha?
Do you mean talking about men's issues, is that what you mean by coarsening?
Or do you mean comments about how women are stupid?
If it is the former, do you think men's issues don't exist or should they only be ignored?
If it is the latter, you should have no problem finding one good example of that to prove that you are not just making shit up.

 

[Silvanus]

The attitude I got/read was that they thought we were all arrogant, wannabe pseudo intellectuals.

In fairness, that describes me pretty well.

OT: The culture at The Escapist has shifted a lot, yes. To some extent it's par for the course in online haunts. This time around, it's been exacerbated by a number of old regulars leaving.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The attitude I got/read was that they thought we were all arrogant, wannabe pseudo intellectuals.

Well, damn. They had our number, didn't they? Not that it bothers me or anything.

Spoiler

 

[Zalmoxis]

(emphasis added)

I posted a link to an Escapist article on my facebook wall and got a response along the lines of "eww, the escapist is a bunch of gamergate creeps" and it got me thinking. I've been coming to this site since back when it was an online magazine, I've been a paying subscriber for years, but somehow I'd missed the transformation taking place.

I felt that it was a safe place, where we weren't like the people on Joystiq or PC Gamer, we were more civil, more considerate. The Escapist was a place where a comic like WHITE GUY DEFENSE FORCE GO! ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/10597-WHITE-GUY-DEFENSE-FORCE-GO ) could be run with a minimum of controversy, where there were people like Movie Bob who could give more analysis to a movie than just "EXPLOSION GOOD".

Now I look at the list of popular forum posts and they're all about how men are oppressed, how women are stupid, exactly the sort of stuff that I'd loved this site for avoiding. How did the site's culture change so fast? Is it a coarsening of the gaming community at large, or is it just the new people? Was I wrong to think that this site was ever any different than all the others?

Well of course some women (and men) are stupid.
People who place metal objects in microwave ovens, for example.

and

Of course some men (and women) are oppressed.
People in the DPRK, for example.

but anyway

Could you please post a quote from an Escapist forum post where anyone has said that women are stupid?

 

[Sassafrass]

People will find new issues to talk about and that will bring in a new influx of users and another change. It'll change again within 12 months, and will always keep changing.

Basically, shit changes because the people that visit change. Sure, this place may be perceived as a proGG site (Mostly because I believe this is one of a few sites who didn't outright ban discussion of it) but that'll change soon, as it normally does.

 

[MorphBallBomb]

All you have to do to be considered 'pro-GG' is allow people to talk about GamerGate on your forums. Neutrality = support in newspeak.
"No platform" has been ultra-progressive policy in most spaces regarding dissenters.

Worst case scenario us [vile misogynist racist transphobic conservative cis white male shitlords] hang around for a little while longer, making you uncomfortable with [views that differ from the liberal progressive handbook], while you wave the torch of reason preaching noblesse oblige. Sorry for ruining your forum in the meantime prior to our inevitable and natural enlightenment.

For the record, I'm liberal (center-left, more left than Obama and the Clintons) and LGBTQ, and I try to stay in off-topic and GID, because I know most escapists that wanted to talk about GG or issues tangential to it would be doing so there, and will not be doing so elsewhere on-site. I'm not invading other forums trying to make everything GamerGate or culture war-ish. But I am taking stock in media metanarratives and putting my foot down on the 'nope'side of BS when the topics are permitted.

If you look at the 'feminism criticism' thread, you'll find that the majority of posters in the thread are feminists. God forbid participating in a movement allows one insight into areas in which it could improve.

I am here from the 4chan exodus, of course, but I do most of my posting on other chans. I come here to see what opponents think, to avoid echo chamber hugboxes. Reading widely is a rare impulse it seems.

 

[Zontar]

Citation for the Quinconspiracy? Citation for the Quinconspiracy turning into Gamergate? Citation for Gamergate complaining about Tumblr boogeymen and calling people "Social Justice Warriors"? Citation for Gamergate spending a vast majority of it's time getting offended at everything and talking about how oppressed they are?

Or just acknowledging that gay people exist getting called a "SJW" move? Cause I can gladly [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.874167-The-Surge-in-LGBT-rainbow-characters-AKA-The-New-Demographic-and-why-its-happening] do that. Turns out I was mistaken on the first thread, it was just some users in this thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.874034-Mortal-Kombat-and-the-only-gay-in-the-village-spoilers-I-guess?page=1] who called it as such, rather than the thread itself. My mistake there. I wont link to specific posts though, I'm not sure about the rules on such things are, but I'm sure in said thread I might have brought it up.

Can't really attribute either of those to GG, mainly because of the fact that neither of them ever seem to post anything related to GG. I know I've never seen either of them posting on the old megathread, and I certainly haven't seen either of them in the GID forum.

Plus, on top of none of your accusations their statements are in any way related to GG (as they themselves are not) I also don't see how the threat you linked to has "acknowledges gays exist = SJW", seems more along the lines of "trying to force more gays into entertainment = SJW", which, when one remembers that American television already over-represents gay African-Americans yet there are still constant calls for more, has some valibity even if some groups are still marginalized.

If you where to look back, you'd see that we never asked for that and did not want it, and after it was clear it was here to stay simple adapted to it. As I recall, it was people who where against GamerGate who wanted us to be relegated to our own subforum, and it was only after they got just that that they started to complain about us getting our own subforum.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=1599

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/663.873270-Call-me-paranoid

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/663.873287-GamerGate-information-and-discussion

Given some of the former showrunners here (Sterling and Bob come to mind) that isn't anything special, remarkable or even noteworthy. Or are we forgetting about the fact that before 2011 both where pretty racist and sexist guys on twitter, and arguable still are but in a different way then before.

I'm not sure but I think you're saying that transphobia, sexism, and racism is ok if other people do it? Or that it's ok to be overlooked if it happens after 2011?

I'm saying neither and you know that. What I'm saying is that it's a litter hard to criticize the site for accepting someone who is transphobic (and to be honest I don't trust the use of that label anymore given what happened with Pillars of Eternity) when they've gotten rid of two people with similar histories as a result of all of this. Seems that loosing two and gaining one is a net gain in terms of cleaning up the site.

Really? Because outside of third hand accounts and a video by a guy who is pro-GG I've never seen anyone outright call this site pro-GG, and if that is the case it's certainly not a perception that has been earned through the site's actions any more then YouTube should be considered a site that's pro-Atheist.

Yeah, when I ignore all the times I've seen this place been called pro-GG I don't see anyone call it pro-GG either. Weird how that works.

See here's the thing, outside of a few users on here (like you and the OP) and a single YouTuber (who is pro-GG and who's video was more "they'll treat you as pro-GG now because of their 'with us or against us' attitude") I honestly have not seen anyone calling this site pro-GG. GGers sure aren't, what with how threads on GID are being treated. Though then again given how the radicals in aGGro are willing to attack a man with cancer and try to ruin people's careers over being neutral on the issue, I guess it wouldn't surprise me that allowing people to talk about serious issues would be enough in the minds of some to make the leap in logic that because they allow something to be debated, they're taking one specific side of the debate.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

But generally Gamergate spends a vast majority of it's time getting offended at everything and talking about how oppressed they are.

That one sentence is so true, ironic and really sad. I've said this many times but gamergate has become everything it once despised. Seriously we have a 7 page thread about a mortal kombat character being gay saying that it's just out of fear of the social justice warriors.

[HEADING=1]Mortal Kombat[/HEADING]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.874167-The-Surge-in-LGBT-rainbow-characters-AKA-The-New-Demographic-and-why-its-happening

I'm just done with this shit now and I just watch as Both side (tumble sjw and crazy channers) kill each other. I just watch the fireworks

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I honestly have not seen anyone calling this site pro-GG.

This site is most definitively pro-GG. Archon quite openly is. The mega-thread was allowed to stay open despite numerous flagrant violations of the CoC that got other threads locked since time immemorial. The new forum has a specifically relaxed CoC for the express purpose of allowing said discussion to continue.

Of course I've been openly critical of GG so I imagine that qualifies me as a "radical aGGro", but as someone who was here long before GG arrived there's been a pretty apparent bending of the rules to make space for them. It's fine, it's their site, they can do whatever they want. I'm not criticizing it. But I'm amazed anyone would deny it.

 

[MorphBallBomb]

But generally Gamergate spends a vast majority of it's time getting offended at everything and talking about how oppressed they are.

That one sentence is so true, ironic and really sad. I've said this many times but gamergate has become everything it once despised. Seriously we have a 7 page thread about a mortal kombat character being gay saying that it's just out of fear of the social justice warriors.

[HEADING=1]Mortal Kombat[/HEADING]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.874167-The-Surge-in-LGBT-rainbow-characters-AKA-The-New-Demographic-and-why-its-happening

I'm just done with this shit now and I just watch as Both side (tumble sjw and crazy channers) kill each other. I just watch the fireworks

That is a pretty stupid thread. Apparently people are upset that...companies...might not be...sincere...and are interested in making money by catering to a growing demographic? OMG, there are gays in Outworld. With so many sweaty muscly guys grabbing each other all the time, who would have guessed?

 

[dragoongfa]

But generally Gamergate spends a vast majority of it's time getting offended at everything and talking about how oppressed they are.

That one sentence is so true, ironic and really sad. I've said this many times but gamergate has become everything it once despised. Seriously we have a 7 page thread about a mortal kombat character being gay saying that it's just out of fear of the social justice warriors.

[HEADING=1]Mortal Kombat[/HEADING]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.874167-The-Surge-in-LGBT-rainbow-characters-AKA-The-New-Demographic-and-why-its-happening

I'm just done with this shit now and I just watch as Both side (tumble sjw and crazy channers) kill each other. I just watch the fireworks

Yet for some reason no GG supporter has brought this up at the resident GG group and at 8chan.

 

[Fox12]

Thanks for being civil, by the way, I was kind of (very) afraid I'd catch a bunch of flak for bringing up this topic. Maybe things haven't changed as much as I'd thought.

Edit: err, maybe not

It's mixed. The heavy modding keeps the community from getting too toxic, but tempers still flare.

The change came with Gamer Gate. It forced a lot of people to side with with either GG or anti-GG, like me. Meanwhile, people who stayed neutral grew rather tired of the whole thing. The Escapist certainly isn't a Gamer Gate site, but it has been welcoming to the movement. For a while they kept it locked it away in the mega thread, and that wasn't so bad. I wish they had kept it there. But then they let it out, and it's all anybody talks about. We've also seen an influx of other GG people who aren't accepted elsewhere. This means that the issue is pretty hotly debated here. Still, most people keep it civil, compared to other sites.

I honestly have not seen anyone calling this site pro-GG.

This site is most definitively pro-GG. Archon quite openly is. The mega-thread was allowed to stay open despite numerous flagrant violations of the CoC that got other threads locked since time immemorial. The new forum has a specifically relaxed CoC for the express purpose of allowing said discussion to continue.

Of course I've been openly critical of GG so I imagine that qualifies me as a "radical aGGro", but as someone who was here long before GG arrived there's been a pretty apparent bending of the rules to make space for them. It's fine, it's their site, they can do whatever they want. I'm not criticizing it. But I'm amazed anyone would deny it.

What sickens me is that the GG members accuse the modding team of being heavily biased against them. Apparently being neutral and doing your job qualifies you as "radical aGGro." Which should tell you something about the movement.

 

[MorphBallBomb]

But generally Gamergate spends a vast majority of it's time getting offended at everything and talking about how oppressed they are.

That one sentence is so true, ironic and really sad. I've said this many times but gamergate has become everything it once despised. Seriously we have a 7 page thread about a mortal kombat character being gay saying that it's just out of fear of the social justice warriors.

[HEADING=1]Mortal Kombat[/HEADING]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.874167-The-Surge-in-LGBT-rainbow-characters-AKA-The-New-Demographic-and-why-its-happening

I'm just done with this shit now and I just watch as Both side (tumble sjw and crazy channers) kill each other. I just watch the fireworks

Yet for some reason no GG supporter has brought this up at the resident GG group and at 8chan.

To be fair there were threads on 8chan about Mortal Kombat X, but most of the concerns were about character redesigns for 'realism' purposes. The majority of posts ended up liking the new designs, thinking they look better (I agree, except in the case of Mileena, I think they made her face look too human in MKX so she isn't as scary). There were the concerns about 'SJW pandering', but they didn't dominate the threads. Ultimately as long as the game felt like Mortal Kombat should feel no one cared.

I think we were all more concerned about the DLC and micro-transactions.

And yeah, the pro-GG escapist group has not discussed this particular issue, at all, to my recollection.