How do we realistically stop harassment online?

[CaptainCoxwaggle]

Threats are a form of coercion that cause someone to stop exercising her freedom to, for example, make videos about video games because she believes she will be raped to death on account of someone saying, "I will rape you to death for your videos." Though the coercion is "only" words, it is still coercion, and it is still a crime.

Threats are words until backed up with action. And many nations do not criminalise "threats", namely the countries that don't make the erroneous decision to have hate crime laws.

Likewise, to use the most cliched example, someone who yells "Fire!" in a crowded theater and causes a panic that gets people hurt and killed when there was no fire is someone who has infringed upon others' right to live and to be free of bodily harm with his speech. That too is a crime.

Funny you should mention that, Justice Holmes, the man who first attributed that quote, later regretted making the comparison, stating that the theatre should have had more fire exits in the first place.

Thoughts are bundles of chemicals and electricity confined within the brain. They are distinct from speech. You are erecting a straw man. Please stop it.

And people are likewise bundles of chemicals and electricity. Don't weasel your way around with a red herring.

Do you know what a straw man is? It is when you make your opponents argument for them. I was stating that thought and expression shouldn't be criminalised.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

snip

Very interesting to see a troll taking a stand against a certain type of harassment... noble yet strange.

The only thing to do is publicly condemn it without resorting to harassment yourself. And that includes doxxing, contacting employers etc. It'll never completely go away (not unless you want some form of internet police, which is a terrible, terrible, terrible, idea).

If the big names on both sides agree to wipe the slate clean on the issue of harassment and both take a stand against it, then everyone will follow along.
However, we currently have names big and small on both sides doxxing, threatening, hacking, and lying, and this probably aint gonna happen.

P.S. if you're gonna mess around with your friends that's fine, but if you actively join a game for the purpose of ruining it for the people who just want to play, those are actions I strongly disapprove of. It may not seem like harassment because there's no 'target', but you're still going after other people, antagonizing them, for your own glee. If you're going to 'troll', be clever about it, try to make the other person laugh, don't act like another 13 year old trying to be funny.

 

[nyarlathotepsama]

You don't. You tell people to grow a pair and accept free speech for what it is.

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Sound about right?

Really here is my opinion on the subject: People, like Anita, need to expect backlash when they make bold statements. It is their right to make those statements and it is also anyone elses' right to question those statements. Some people lack the ability to intelligently make coherent arguments and they lash out with mockery and insults. You should just ignore their monkey antics and address those that pose actual criticism. That is the burden of any serious journalist or critic. If you can't ignore the mockers then you shouldn't be in a position to garner their attention in the first place. That should be axiomatic.

Harassment is universal. Which sucks really bad. There isn't anything you can do about it without violating free-speech, every new law placed upon what is right for a person to say is another law that steals one of our last remaining bastions of freedom. That bastion being language. If you allow people to censor any disagreement by calling it harassment then you are giving people the power to make any statement unopposed. It creates an actual slippery slope that leads to no one being able to disagree with anyone or even make the statements in the first place.

But I know, you just want people who say mean, mean words to be unable to harass people anymore. I understand the issue, better than you might expect. I am a homosexual man and I was born in 1971. I grew up in the Southern USA. I've faced far, far worse than a few people saying mean words at me and making threats over thousands of miles. I faced those threats on the way home from high school everyday. I was beaten and battered, sexually assaulted and worse just because I'm gay.

What does this have to do with internet harassment? More than you'd think actually. I've noticed that the newest way to silence people who disagree with you is the claim harassment. It is an all purpose force field that can be used to defend the undefendable, it is a tool to allow your statements to go unquestioned, it is a gag for those who question your ideas. I see this more and more these days. Disable comments to avoid mockery, I guess that is okay but don't be shocked and appalled when people call you a coward for it. Claim harassment because people judge you for some amoral behavior, fine but don't create a whole conspiracy against you out of thin air because people are offended by your behavior.

If I'd had such a simple option to silence those who harassed me growing up I might have used it but I would have been a worse person for it, worse and weaker. As CaptainCoxwaggle said people need to grow a thicker skin and the only way that happens is to face the bad things in life without a magical shield (claiming harassment) to protect them. If you can't accept that burden then maybe the forum of public opinion isn't the place for you. It is as simple as that really.

We are living in an ever increasingly self-centered society. People take themselves and their opinions far, far too seriously and seem to have this strange way of turning anyone who is vocally against their ideals into an enemy. This too creates backlash that creates further enemies in a vicious, idiotic circle of wasted time and effort. If people would just be honest and try to explain rather than justify their opinions most of these problems wouldn't be nearly as rampant as they are now.

So in closing; how can we stop harassment? We can't, at least not as stated. It is an eternal negative force that will exist as long as human beings do. The only thing we can do is learn to ignore or endure it because otherwise we'll need to police everyone's hearts and minds, and that isn't a very easy process. That isn't to say we do nothing but instead make it clear you don't respect people who use petty insults and mockery, don't do so yourself, make everything better from the ground up rather than passing ever more constrictive legislation. Be the change don't wish for it. Wishing wastes everyone's time. Thank you for reading.

 

[Thorn14]

To the people stating that removing anonymity would solve the problem?

Sorry but Facebook has proven that to be false.

People can have their face and name on their own profile (of their own doing) and still act like total fuckwits online.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

You don't stop it.
You suck it up and ignore it.

By reacting to it, you give the people harrassing you power.

It honestly worries me that a generation is growing up with such a thin skin that words on a screen can hurt their precious feelings and people will gather around them and say everything will be okay and they're just big meanies.

As someone who grew up before the internet and got bullied by actual real people who could physically attack me, the idea of words on a screen sending people into fits of anxiousness blows my mind.

 

[gargantual]

I answer this with George Carlin's 7 words you cant say on TV. The lesson is that offense is highly contextual, and impossible to competely police in a universal manner. Even when trying to be prudent, you can be offensive to others by generalizng them in attempt to curtail behavior.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Lead by example maybe?
Let's say people start spamming Ms. Sarkeesian's twitter with rape threats and death threats. You get a bunch of people together and start spamming her twitter with:
"With all due respect Ms. Sarkeesian I do not think your work makes any good points or has any real value, I would appreciate it if you approached it in a more fair and balance manner."

Just a suggestion, I don't care really, I've received plenty of death threats and rape threats over the years and I never gave a fuck.

Except we know Anita ignores valid critism because focussing on rape/death threats makes more publicity.

Harassment won't go away because the high profile people who get it WANT to get it to further their cause by holding up the asshole and going "look at these people", which just fuels more harassment.

Edit: It's validation behaviour, its the same reason that the media shouldn't give attention to school shootings or teenage suicide. By giving attention to it, you're encouraging people with the same thoughts, which results in a rash of the same incidents.

"Well, if they're doing it, it must be okay", if you wamt a simplified version

As I said, best thing to do is ignore it. They WANT to provoke a reaction and by giving it media attention you're doing exactly what they want. Take away the attention and you take away the fuel.

 

[JimB]

Threats are words until backed up with action.

Words are actions, and in some cases are declarations of intent to commit other actions. If you don't want the law treating you like you intend to rape someone to death, then do not run around saying, "I intend to rape someone to death."

And many nations do not criminalize "threats," namely the countries that don't make the erroneous decision to have hate crime laws.

You are the one who deconstructed the First Amendment of America's Constitution while discussing actions taking place on American soil.

Funny you should mention that. Justice Holmes, the man who first attributed that quote, later regretted making the comparison, stating that the theater should have had more fire exits in the first place.

Too late for him to change his mind now; the law has been enshrined. If anyone wants to change it, they can start the process whenever they want.

And people are likewise bundles of chemicals and electricity. Don't weasel your way around with a red herring.

I believe that by saying speech equals thought, you are trying to say that speech is an invisible thing confined entirely within the person making the speech and physically incapable of affecting others. It isn't. Speech, by definition, travels out from the speaker. If that is not your point, then please clarify it for me so we can discuss what you actually mean.

Do you know what a straw man is? It is when you make your opponents argument for them. I was stating that thought and expression shouldn't be criminalized.

My apologies. You seemed to be doing so in the context of rebutting a point Fappy never made.

 

[small]

Lead by example maybe?
Let's say people start spamming Ms. Sarkeesian's twitter with rape threats and death threats. You get a bunch of people together and start spamming her twitter with:
"With all due respect Ms. Sarkeesian I do not think your work makes any good points or has any real value, I would appreciate it if you approached it in a more fair and balance manner."

Just a suggestion, I don't care really, I've received plenty of death threats and rape threats over the years and I never gave a fuck.

Except we know Anita ignores valid critism because focussing on rape/death threats makes more publicity.

Harassment won't go away because the high profile people who get it WANT to get it to further their cause by holding up the asshole and going "look at these people", which just fuels more harassment.

Edit: It's validation behaviour, its the same reason that the media shouldn't give attention to school shootings or teenage suicide. By giving attention to it, you're encouraging people with the same thoughts, which results in a rash of the same incidents.

"Well, if they're doing it, it must be okay", if you wamt a simplified version

As I said, best thing to do is ignore it. They WANT to provoke a reaction and by giving it media attention you're doing exactly what they want. Take away the attention and you take away the fuel.

um did you actually read what you wrote? blaming someone for bringing attention to actual rape and death threats is their problem? so people should keep quiet and just accept when others abuse and threaten them.. wow i cant say enough how messed up that is.

in response to the OP. people need to be called out about it, given the option to report and ban people from sites permanently, notifying the police and having it taken seriously, etc.

there is no excuse for it and needs to be treated the same as real life

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Lead by example maybe?
Let's say people start spamming Ms. Sarkeesian's twitter with rape threats and death threats. You get a bunch of people together and start spamming her twitter with:
"With all due respect Ms. Sarkeesian I do not think your work makes any good points or has any real value, I would appreciate it if you approached it in a more fair and balance manner."

Just a suggestion, I don't care really, I've received plenty of death threats and rape threats over the years and I never gave a fuck.

Except we know Anita ignores valid critism because focussing on rape/death threats makes more publicity.

Harassment won't go away because the high profile people who get it WANT to get it to further their cause by holding up the asshole and going "look at these people", which just fuels more harassment.

Edit: It's validation behaviour, its the same reason that the media shouldn't give attention to school shootings or teenage suicide. By giving attention to it, you're encouraging people with the same thoughts, which results in a rash of the same incidents.

"Well, if they're doing it, it must be okay", if you wamt a simplified version

As I said, best thing to do is ignore it. They WANT to provoke a reaction and by giving it media attention you're doing exactly what they want. Take away the attention and you take away the fuel.

um did you actually read what you wrote? blaming someone for bringing attention to actual rape and death threats is their problem? so people should keep quiet and just accept when others abuse and threaten them.. wow i cant say enough how messed up that is.

in response to the OP. people need to be called out about it, given the option to report and ban people from sites permanently, notifying the police and having it taken seriously, etc.

there is no excuse for it and needs to be treated the same as real life

Did you read what I wrote?
Public attention isn't the same as no attention.

 

[michael87cn]

only way is to remove all anonymity. when you pay a company for internet access you now have your real name plastered on anything you use, as well as probably your place of residence.

if you can't hide, you have you be responsible for your actions.

it won't happen though... people would just stop using the internet if they had to do that.

 

[Avaholic03]

Any efforts to combat harassment will be seen as censorship or a violation of privacy. Several online places (like youtube) attempted to remove anonymity by forcing people to post with their real name, but that's come under a lot of scrutiny because of privacy (especially with children using it). It was a decent idea, that people are less likely to be assholes without the anonymity to hide behind.

 

[Quadocky]

You don't stop it.
You suck it up and ignore it.

By reacting to it, you give the people harrassing you power.

It honestly worries me that a generation is growing up with such a thin skin that words on a screen can hurt their precious feelings and people will gather around them and say everything will be okay and they're just big meanies.

As someone who grew up before the internet and got bullied by actual real people who could physically attack me, the idea of words on a screen sending people into fits of anxiousness blows my mind.

This shits different though. Fuck, I wish, I WISH most bullying was physical. At least then you'd know where the lines where drawn.

Hah, nope. What we got is calculated large scale harassment and stalking. ITS FUCKING TERRIFYING. Like shit outta some horror movie.

Its not 'words on a screen hurting their precious feelings'. Its literal threats to their life and creepy as hell phone calls to THEIR PRIVATE PHONES. Or people literally breaking into their accounts or exploiting features that allow them to continue campaigns of harassment.

What the fuck are you suppose to do? Just sit there and 'not react' to day-in day-out harrassment of this kind? Fuck, not even the police know how the hell to stop it aside from the person just up and becoming silenced and removed from the internet and any networked device. Its fucking terrible.

 

[Quadocky]

Self defeating attitudes like this one are kind of the exact reason online harassment is so prevalent in our current climate. When you deflect responsibility and say that there's nothing to be done, you enable and encourage harassers to continue ruining the community for everyone else.

Here's an interesting article on the subject: http://www.wired.com/2014/05/fighting-online-harassment/

An excerpt:

Wishing rape or other violence on women or using derogatory slurs, even as ?jokes,? would never fly in most workplaces or communities, and those who engaged in such vitriol would be reprimanded or asked to leave. Why shouldn?t that be the response in our online lives?

To truly shift social norms, the community, by definition, has to get involved in enforcing them. This could mean making comments of disapproval, upvoting and downvoting, or simply reporting bad behavior. The best online forums are the ones that take seriously their role as communities, including the famously civil MetaFilter, whose moderation is guided by a ?don?t be an asshole? principle. On a much larger scale, Microsoft?s Xbox network implemented a community-powered reputation system for its new Xbox One console. Using feedback from players, as well as a variety of other metrics, the system determines whether a user gets rated green (?Good Player?), yellow (?Needs Improvement?), or red (?Avoid Me?).

As a community we need to be more proactive about policing bad behavior, and until we are we won't be able to carry on any important discussions without being drowned out by vitriol.

You can't tell me to be a better human being! God damn Social Justice Warriors. ADD WIRED.COM TO THE BLACKLIST!

At least this is the reaction I imagine to reasonable changes to combat cruel and uncaring jerkwads.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I mean we have the advent of the mute button on Twitter, which is basically a soft block where people don't know if they are blocked. But even blocking too.

This is just me talking, and yes, I'd be just as prone to seeking out abuse as anyone else, but at a certain point if something or someone is making me feel bad I stop doing it. So if I got a lot of people attacking me, and maybe it's too many to block, then why not just stop looking at my mentions? Out of sight, out of mind.

I take the same approach to the Xbox Live, if I hear someone being toxic I just mute them.

Aside from that, we need strict penaltys for death threats... I actually am not a real fan of that idea, because it's a little too High School "Zero Tolerance" policy, but I can't think of another way. Make a threat, go to jail.

 

[hermes]

You don't. You tell people to grow a pair and accept free speech for what it is.

Your freedom of expression ends the moment it violates someone else's freedoms (classic example being hate speech). Death and rape threats are actual crimes and are never acceptable. I thought this was obvious.

And, pray, how does speech violate someone else's freedoms? It is a person's right to hate people for whatever reason they want, and to express their hatred vocally. Thoughts should never, ever be crimes.

Freedom of expression doesn't end just because some oversensitive prick gets offended. I would have hoped this would be obvious to any civilised person.

It does start with people taking responsibility for their words, the same way they do for their actions. Being responsible for what you do and say is part of being a "civilized person".

In other words: If you act and speak like a dick, you don't get to call foul when people treat you like a dick.

OT: You can't. Sorry to break it up to you, but this is not something that can be solved with simple answers like "include real names", or "tighter moderation standards".

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Self defeating attitudes like this one are kind of the exact reason online harassment is so prevalent in our current climate. When you deflect responsibility and say that there's nothing to be done, you enable and encourage harassers to continue ruining the community for everyone else.

This is almost word-for-word what people say when someone criticizes the inherently illogical and irrational "men can stop rape" initiative I referenced in my post - and I'm exactly as confused by it. In fact, it's really almost worse in this situation because people are advocating for solutions that actually encourage, embolden, and strengthen the offenders.

Is it self-defeating to embrace the only viable path to victory/mitigation?

Is it a deflection of responsibility when people point out that your ideas will only make things worse?

Is a community ruined if a small handful of terrible people take advantage of free and open spaces to harass and abuse others?

Based on the ridiculous fights that break out in practically every comment section on the internet, which community isn't ruined?

Here's an interesting article on the subject: http://www.wired.com/2014/05/fighting-online-harassment/

"To truly shift social norms, the community, by definition, has to get involved in enforcing them. This could mean making comments of disapproval, upvoting and downvoting, or simply reporting bad behavior."

People already report bad behavior. People already upvote/downvote and make disapproving comments. These practices don't shame horribly offensive people *because horribly offensive people have no shame*. If they did, they wouldn't do what they do.

You can't defeat a person seeking your attention at literally any cost by giving them attention. Flavoring your reaction, shading it one way or the other, cannot alter this fundamental truth. You marginalize and defeat such a person by either taking away their platform or ignoring them. In some spaces, it is appropriate to snag the microphone. In other spaces, you have to live with the idiocy. No matter what happens, these people will *never vanish entirely*. There is no "final solution" or "banding together to take out the trash". They will find another platform, create another space. That's the beauty and tragedy of the internet. Full stop.

The best online forums are the ones that take seriously their role as communities, including the famously civil MetaFilter, whose moderation is guided by a ?don?t be an asshole? principle. On a much larger scale, Microsoft?s Xbox network implemented a community-powered reputation system for its new Xbox One console. Using feedback from players, as well as a variety of other metrics, the system determines whether a user gets rated green (?Good Player?), yellow (?Needs Improvement?), or red (?Avoid Me?).

Excellent examples of safe spaces - or at least spaces attempting to be more safe. There still exist unsafe, un-moderated, free-and-open spaces, however, and they will always exist. Nothing you or I can do, short of implementing a draconian police state, can sweep these offensive people away.

As a community we need to be more proactive about policing bad behavior, and until we are we won't be able to carry on any important discussions without being drowned out by vitriol.

Maybe important discussions don't belong on twitter or in comments sections. Maybe important discussions should be reserved for more controlled environments, and the uncontrolled spaces can remain a chaotic torrent of totally free expression - a torrent we occasionally call upon to overwhelm and wash away the sheltered places when ideas or people become too entrenched and cozy.

One thing you shouldn't do: conflate stray offensive strands of the wild internet abyss with your legitimate intellectual opponents.

Anyways, what's the actual plan here? Make everyone use their real name? Behold, Internet 2.0. Ban people from twitter? What's this?! A twitter substitute gaining steam almost immediately. Kick the twerps out of your forum, off your website, from your blog host? A new forum, a new website, a new blog host, all catering to a demand in the name of making a buck.

At this point I'm trying to figure out if people are a) being unintentionally obtuse about the way this stuff works or b) being willfully ignorant because they've got stock in the online media companies that rely on clickbaiting and infighting to turn profit.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

you dimwit

Warning for the other person but not this? Okay.

Freedom includes the freedom to be an ass. When it crosses a line (credible death threats, rape threats, etc.), involve the proper authorities. Otherwise? There's a price to be paid for striving to change people's minds. Always has been, always will be.

 

[Robert B. Marks]

Right, bit of background before I post - one of the things I did post-Garwulf's Corner was go back to school, and I ended up doing strategic communications research for the Canadian Department of National Defence (yes, I actually got a play a very, VERY minor role in combating the Jihad message - sadly, the austerity program put an end to that).

So, how do you fight the harassment campaigns? There's a couple of ways.

1. Peer pressure against them. I know this sounds like something from high school, but in a lot of ways it's the same mechanism that the harassment campaigns rely on. If, upon one of these campaigns starting, there is an even bigger backlash against the harassment across Twitter, Facebook, and other social media, it sends a strong message that the harassment isn't right, and makes it less palatable. Doing this is easy - when you see it happening, stand up where you can be heard and say "That's wrong - stop it." That's really all there is to it. For extra impact, add "You should be ashamed of yourself/yourselves." And then make sure you walk away - it's a dismissal, not an argument. What you're communicating is that the harassers are only speaking for themselves, and that you reject them.

(Funny thing - shaming REALLY works. There's a story I once heard about the London Underground putting up posters against littering with litterers and "I was so ashamed" - and the rate of littering dropped dramatically. It's a fundamental and basic human reaction.)

2. Make it a police matter. Death threats and hacking are both crimes. If they are treated as such, and people end up getting arrested and held responsible for their actions, that will have an impact. And while the internet may seen anonymous, there are no shortage of ways for somebody to be identified and tracked down.

3. Accept that it's a long-term project. You're talking about changing the way a sub-culture in the gaming community thinks and acts. That takes time, and I'm talking years. Right now, they see no problem with waging harassment and abuse campaigns against anybody they don't like. That's not a small thing to try to fix. But, with sufficient time, peer pressure, and police action, they can be marginalized and driven underground.

It is do-able. The harassment and abuse campaigns can be stopped, given enough time. But the entire community needs to act to make it happen.

 

[runequester]

When I worked at a big corporation, one of the things we were taught about employee theft and general mischief is that in any given group, 10% or so will always do what they perceive to be "the right thing". 10% are troublemakers who will always do "the wrong thing" out of spite.

The remaining will do whatever they perceive is the majority opinion and attitude.

If the majority of gamers who speak out on a topic seem to condone bullying, racist slurs, harassment and crazy over-reactions because the ending to their favourite science fiction RPG trilogy wasn't that great, then people are going to fall into that.

What can YOU do?

Don't make up excuses for people with rancid opinions or absurd outbursts. Be firm that "I agree the game sucked but I don't think death threats are acceptable". On sites with moderation, use the "report abuse" functions. Distance yourself from the people that intend to bring the gaming community down.

Here's the thing ultimately:

The vitriolic trolls? They have no investment in a given games community or in "gaming" as a whole. They'll move on to something else instead.
The people who are hurt by the cesspool are the enthusiasts who want to talk about video game endings or controls or game concepts without it devolving into insane shouting and racist slurs.


This is the time for the community to show that it can in fact police itself. Because if it doesn't, the corporations WILL do it. Big gaming corp "Alectronic Erts" wants to sell games to everyone. Kids and stay at home moms.
If every internet video, every site and every forum is a cesspool of vitriol and trolling, they're going to remove those avenues because it'll scare off the customers. Simple as that.

The push for an end to internet anonymity comes from big business. And if you live in America, you know what happens when business wants something