How powerful do you want Superman to be portrayed as?
- Thread starter Samtemdo8_v1legacy
- Start date
I have not heard of Superman: Peace on Earth. And I don't know what you're quoting me for, I didn't use the All-Star Superman example. I quoted WhiteFangofWhoa who did. I quoted him because of everything else he said, not because of the All-Star Superman example.Samtemdo8 said:Can you guys for once STOP using that one scene from All-Star Superman? There are more examples of Superman being heroic and virtuous than that!Canadamus Prime said:I think this:
sums it up for better than I could.WhiteFangofWhoa said:Despite complaints that he should be stronger, I feel the DCAU got it about right: He is shown to be the biggest powerhouse in the entire Justice League and, more importantly, one who inspires countless others to take up the cape with his heroism and dedication to virtue.
His biggest conflict is not usually defeating the enemy, but holding back to avoid causing catastrophic damage to the city/planet as well as accidentally killing villains he doesn't want to kill (the exceptions to his usual mercy being Darkseid, Mongol and occasionally Lex Luthor after he's done something particularly vile). Having the ability to fly around the planet so fast it rewinds time so he can save everyone on the second try defuses drama unless it's a one-time thing, done in a moment of absolute need. Likewise, giving him speed to match or exceed Flash combined with everything else he has removes the tactical element for just about any fight he's in.
As the comic book hero given the most Christ themes of any of them, his struggle is not necessarily in defeating evil directly by punching it in the face. It's in saving humanity from the dark impulses that drive them to destruction (though again he's likely given up on saving Luthor's soul by now, no surprise). All the power in the world won't always allow you to do that:
Ever heard of Superman: Peace on Earth?!
I like the Snyder level. Man of Steel is actually my favourite of all the Superman films after the first. I know, I know.
In relation to the rest of the Justice League, I feel like he should always be the strongest physically, but not the smartest or the fastest or the most versatile. (Flash should always be the fastest.) He should be the big gun.
I mean, in context, it's brilliant. Superman spends all his time running around saving people from increasingly-ridiculous catastrophes. And he stops in the middle of all that to save one person by doing something incredibly simple and insanely difficult at the same time, and he pulls it off, because he's Superman. He can punch a meteor into dust, move the moon, and restart the sun - and he can still stop and give you a hug when you need it most.
In relation to the rest of the Justice League, I feel like he should always be the strongest physically, but not the smartest or the fastest or the most versatile. (Flash should always be the fastest.) He should be the big gun.
It's just an especially iconic scene.Samtemdo8 said:
I mean, in context, it's brilliant. Superman spends all his time running around saving people from increasingly-ridiculous catastrophes. And he stops in the middle of all that to save one person by doing something incredibly simple and insanely difficult at the same time, and he pulls it off, because he's Superman. He can punch a meteor into dust, move the moon, and restart the sun - and he can still stop and give you a hug when you need it most.
I like the Animated Series version, where he isn't actually any less powerful than his other portrayals, but he doesn't know that.
Like, he doesn't know that he doesn't need a space suit, at least to start with, because how could he? He doesn't know he'll be fine if that bomb goes off, because he's never been in an explosion that big. He doesn't know how fast he is, because he's never needed to move that fast, etc. Sure, he could've stopped that plane in midair faster, but it seems hard and he doesn't have to. That's why all his saves look like they come down to the wire: he doesn't know his own power.
And then his growth as he leans into just how powerful he is.
Like, he doesn't know that he doesn't need a space suit, at least to start with, because how could he? He doesn't know he'll be fine if that bomb goes off, because he's never been in an explosion that big. He doesn't know how fast he is, because he's never needed to move that fast, etc. Sure, he could've stopped that plane in midair faster, but it seems hard and he doesn't have to. That's why all his saves look like they come down to the wire: he doesn't know his own power.
And then his growth as he leans into just how powerful he is.
The power level of 70s movie version minus the ability to turn back time. It would have been a better movie if he had to make a choice and sacrifice something for it. Super-Man needs almost god-like strength without the power of an actual god.
He could also just pick her up and put her on the ground, removing the imminent threat. There's actually a later story that did it better, where the woman on the ledge makes him swear that if she chooses to leap, he has to respect her decision and not interfere. They then spend all day on the ledge before she decides to come down.Baffle2 said:
Its a bunch of pages, not just a single image, so... https://imgur.com/gallery/Ijdxh
It just gives me the impression that no one has ever read any other Superman comic, but All Star Superman.bastardofmelbourne said:
And to be honest I always found that particular scene unbelievably corny as fuck. A suicidal Goth/Emo girl? Really? How on the nose can you possibly be? And they wouldn't go as far as jump off a building, they cut thier arms to die bleeding, Supes would have saved her by cauterizing her cut with his heat vision.
As you can see I find All-Star Superman extremely overrated.
That's a really great moment for Superman, but how does that translate into games?! Do you just wait, put the controller down for 6 in-game hours, ignoring fires, bank robberies, those space viking raiders that are after Lois for her scathing opinion article about space viking fashion, all in the pursuit of this one woman, who if you accidentally pump the controller launches herself off the building, and you either accept her death and basically have wasted all your time, or save her and risk an Incredibles style lawsuit?Elijin said:
Superman's moments are either slow, humanizing and philosophical, or super OP I am God and my sneeze creates Galaxies. Neither of which translate well into video games.
This is the essence of what makes Superman a great character.altnameJag said:
You and I know what his stats are, but in a world that can fracture by your sneeze, you dare not do anything.
Fear of yourself. Never, ever relaxing because you don't know what will happen if you do. Holding back the rage and the fear that you can never explore once because you might stamp so hard that the very Earth would split in two. How is that a boring character? Someone who will only know trials and tribulations, alienation from all because no one can quite get what it is like to be you. How you can never turn it off or look to anyone for guidance.
And because of that... everyone looks at you as a savior and a devil at the same time. This is why I hated that Batman Vs Superman came so early. I get why Man of Steel is what it is. Instead of having the honorable, courageous Pa Kent that the comics had, the DCCU had ***** Pa Kent who just told Clark to run until the perfect time.
Giving Superman one movie to actually deal with the dichotomy of being truly alone in the Hero and Villain duel role this world placed him in would have done wonders. To explore his actual psyche instead of showing it to us and going "Yeah... that must suck... Now let's focus on Batman because you all think he's cooler!"
Superman can be as strong as he wants to be; the thing I like most about him is that, aside from a few weird "characters have to be abrasive because narrative" moments, he doesn't care about being super. Dude's just a guy that wants to do as much good as he can, but still play nice with others.
One time in the JLU cartoon, he was smacking around some thugs with Batman and holding a conversation while doing it. A pedantic internet person might look at that and say "well jeez, Superman is super, why doesn't he just take care of everything himself?" I look at that and think "aww, he's bonding with Batman and using that time to talk out some issues, how nice of him!" It wasn't about Superman's power, it was about him being a character, and it was awesome.
One time in the JLU cartoon, he was smacking around some thugs with Batman and holding a conversation while doing it. A pedantic internet person might look at that and say "well jeez, Superman is super, why doesn't he just take care of everything himself?" I look at that and think "aww, he's bonding with Batman and using that time to talk out some issues, how nice of him!" It wasn't about Superman's power, it was about him being a character, and it was awesome.
I don't care for any form of intergalactic, planet punching, god defying heroes. Heroes are interesting when they defy what we take for granted as true for us and live an interesting life dictated by what they do with their abilities. Spiderman is beloved because he's a photographer who struggles to pay his rent and gets bullied a lot. Wolverine people like because he is a barely tamed animal, a beast lurking underneath the surface, but he keeps his primal nature at bay by trying to be a hero.
Superman at his best stops bullets from hitting innocent people, stops trains falling off bridges, has to find an excuse to disappear so he can change from Clark to Superman and struggles with his sense of identity. If you believe David Carradine at the end of Kill Bill 2, Kal El is always Superman and Clark Kent is his disguise. I prefer Smallville's interpretation of the character, as being Clark Kent, son of Jonathan and Martha Kent, first and foremost. The character in the costume is a public persona, but Clark is the man with the same struggles and challenges that all of us have and he's the interesting one as a result.
I like Superman being the saviour of Metropolis, stopping crashing buildings, runaway cars and trains, falling planes, etc. As for breaking universes, punching gods or even worse, the Jesus allegory, I don't care for any of it. The trouble with him is that he's been built up to be their flagship character now, so like it or loathe it he's going to be DC's god punching numero uno.
I do love some of the discussions about him tho, such as how powerful his orgasm would be.
Superman at his best stops bullets from hitting innocent people, stops trains falling off bridges, has to find an excuse to disappear so he can change from Clark to Superman and struggles with his sense of identity. If you believe David Carradine at the end of Kill Bill 2, Kal El is always Superman and Clark Kent is his disguise. I prefer Smallville's interpretation of the character, as being Clark Kent, son of Jonathan and Martha Kent, first and foremost. The character in the costume is a public persona, but Clark is the man with the same struggles and challenges that all of us have and he's the interesting one as a result.
I like Superman being the saviour of Metropolis, stopping crashing buildings, runaway cars and trains, falling planes, etc. As for breaking universes, punching gods or even worse, the Jesus allegory, I don't care for any of it. The trouble with him is that he's been built up to be their flagship character now, so like it or loathe it he's going to be DC's god punching numero uno.
I do love some of the discussions about him tho, such as how powerful his orgasm would be.
Silentpony said:
His full power still wasn't enough to put down Darkseid.
There are plenty of video games with characters who in story are functionally invincible. See Bayonetta, Asura from Asura's Wrath, Dante from Devil May Cry, Lightning and Cloud from Final Fantasy, Alex Mercer from Prototype and his successor James Heller etc.
Then again, Flash was able to destroy Brainiac completely, something Superman never accomplished and the League defeated the Superman Revenge Squad without Superman's help. Superman also had help from Darkseid's forces in Legacy. They claimed Superman was more powerful than anyone else but this was more lip service than anything else. Likely to appease fans who felt he was too weak in Superman: TAS.Asita said:
Depends on the story you want to tell with him and the themes involved.
Some stories work well with an overpowered protagonist in some respects, then you can use something like mind control or magic or manipulation to show the limits of their strength. But if you want to see a more physical struggle you need to tone things down a little.
There's also character study style stories like Injustice which fall into what happens if all that power is corrupted.
Some stories work well with an overpowered protagonist in some respects, then you can use something like mind control or magic or manipulation to show the limits of their strength. But if you want to see a more physical struggle you need to tone things down a little.
There's also character study style stories like Injustice which fall into what happens if all that power is corrupted.
I like superman ridiculously powerful, so much so that he has to actively stop himself from putting others at risk. For me that is supermans main superpower - having the restraint to not fully expose his powers in the knowledge of what he can do, until he absolutely needs to use it. I think MoS was trying to angle for this, but it didn't have enough build up - nowhere was it stated that superman had to hold back when fighting other than when he was a kid to "hide himself". Now he's an adult, he wrecks trucks. Zod could have put him in an impossible situation, but instead we got property damage and the risk of ONE family dying due to movie logic (Quick, stand still while the beam slowly moves around, ignore that supes is restraining Zod's head).
The family weren't the only ones in danger. They were just the ones in immediate danger at that moment. It wasn't just about saving that one family, it was stopping Zod permanently.rosac said:
Breaking a truck is not the same thing as causing harm to a living, breathing human (or in Zod's case, alien) being.
And frankly, I'm not sure where this myth about Superman being all about restraint comes from. The guy's set people on fire, smashed them through buildings, threatened gruesome violence plenty of times and has the highest kill count on the Justice League outside of Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Hal Jordan. The backlash to MoS is based more on what people think Superman is like rather than what he actually is.
I'd say Superman can be as powerful as the writers want him to be, with a few conditions:
1. Superman must have very clearly defined limits to his durability, strength, and superpowers in general, his REAL limits, no "World of Cardboard" speech showing he's been holding back the whole time. Demonstrate in the first couple issues, or episodes, or whatever "This is what Superman can do, and that's all he'll ever be able to", and STICK TO THAT. No jacking up Superman's strength so he can push planets around if he couldn't before, no tanking a nuclear bomb after he can barely handle a regular ballistic missile, and most importantly of all, don't just give him new powers out of the blue. Confront Superman with something and have him use what he can already do to get around it, with some ingenuity on the side if necessary, don't give him more to get out of the situation. Don't try to justify it with some hack spur of the moment explanation either, like "this villain just killed Lois! SUPERMAN MAD!!!" or whatever, at least if it hasn't been established already that being really really pissed off increases his power. At the very least fall back on that explanation barely at all, and not to such an extreme extent it invalidates those previously established limitations, more like "I could lift 50 pounds before, now I'M MAD and can lift 52," keep it plausibly within the limits.
If the writers want to jack Superman up or give him new abilities, JUSTIFY IT. Show him working on discovering new powers, show him pushing around moons to work his muscles up, whatever, and then go through the process of clearly defining what Superman can do all over again. Also, if possible foreshadow just how powerful Superman can potentially get long before, have him uncover a database from the spaceship he came in as a baby showing a Kryptonian pushing a planet or something.
Last, keep reestablishing Superman's powers and limitations every so often, so new viewers can know it and old viewers will remember it.
2. Make sure to use Superman's weakness of Kryptonite very sparingly if at all, and don't have villains from Big Bad to mooks rely upon it to be a threat to Superman at all. Kryptonite is a weakness of Superman that was played out more than half a century ago, and it has always been a pretty pathetic and poorly used weakness anyway. Kryptonite is one of those weaknesses which really should have become like say, Power Girl's weakness to natural materials, one of those weaknesses that was ignored and dropped entirely not long after it was introduced simply because it was so incredibly stupid. Particularly because Kryptonite is one of those weaknesses that should have been extremely rare but pops up pretty much everywhere now, defeating the point of a weakness to begin with. The magic weakness is much more reasonable since Superman isn't a magical character himself, but it would be much more effective to simply have magic be something that can enhance or innately make the beings that use it as strong or stronger than Superman himself.
Speaking of Superman's weaknesses, don't ever, and I mean even once, have the villain be a threat only because they threaten Lois, the Daily Planet crew, or any random innocent. Sure, the writers can still have the villains threaten these, but don't have the only reason the villain is even an issue is because they threaten these people. It's just passing the buck on to someone far weaker than Superman and it just cheap and extremely terrible lazy writing. Have the villain do this but also be a real physical threat to Superman on their own, without needing Kryptonite either. It ramps up the tension a thousandfold to do this and makes it so much more plausible that the ones being threatened could actually die, especially if they are some no named nobody instead of a long established named character who we all know will survive (or will get revived/retconned if they actually DO die).
3. Probably what is easily the most important of all: Make the villains Superman's equal if not somewhat exceed him, both combatants must be able to defeat each other in a straight out, no holds barred fight where both are fighting at their best. I am talking physically not just mentally here BTW, though both is preferable the former MUST be there. If Superman can push around planets, give say Lex Luthor a Supersuit that can do the same, if not be able to push around even bigger planets. If Superman can turn back time to reverse the damage the villain can do, give the villain the ability to either time travel as well to try and prevent it, or prevent Superman from using said power under most circumstances. Mooks too not just the Big Bad, Superman likely can still take Mooks by the hundreds, this is the very nature of the Mook, but each individual ones still needs to be powerful enough to cause at least a little damage to Superman on their own, thus potentially killing him in numbers otherwise there is no point in their existence. The Mooks acting as a distraction for each other of the Big Bad so they can commit villainy doesn't work as a justification for weak Mooks that can't actually hurt Superman either, for the same reasons as threatening a weak character to create a threat to Superman on it's own doesn't work.
In a video game context this would mean a Superman game where the Mooks are a bunch of robots with super strength and durability and/or sci-fi tech weaponry that can hurt Superman, heavily mutated human freaks that can use a combo of powers, warlocks and witches that can use their magic to reach Superman's level, aliens with comparable strength and durability to Superman, and so on and so forth, doing the same for the main Supervillains.
Sorry if that got ranty, I'm just so sick of Superman never reaching his actual potential as a character and people even actually DEFENDING the way he's been. Superman is easily among one of the worst characters in all of fiction and could be SO much better it's beyond belief.
1. Superman must have very clearly defined limits to his durability, strength, and superpowers in general, his REAL limits, no "World of Cardboard" speech showing he's been holding back the whole time. Demonstrate in the first couple issues, or episodes, or whatever "This is what Superman can do, and that's all he'll ever be able to", and STICK TO THAT. No jacking up Superman's strength so he can push planets around if he couldn't before, no tanking a nuclear bomb after he can barely handle a regular ballistic missile, and most importantly of all, don't just give him new powers out of the blue. Confront Superman with something and have him use what he can already do to get around it, with some ingenuity on the side if necessary, don't give him more to get out of the situation. Don't try to justify it with some hack spur of the moment explanation either, like "this villain just killed Lois! SUPERMAN MAD!!!" or whatever, at least if it hasn't been established already that being really really pissed off increases his power. At the very least fall back on that explanation barely at all, and not to such an extreme extent it invalidates those previously established limitations, more like "I could lift 50 pounds before, now I'M MAD and can lift 52," keep it plausibly within the limits.
If the writers want to jack Superman up or give him new abilities, JUSTIFY IT. Show him working on discovering new powers, show him pushing around moons to work his muscles up, whatever, and then go through the process of clearly defining what Superman can do all over again. Also, if possible foreshadow just how powerful Superman can potentially get long before, have him uncover a database from the spaceship he came in as a baby showing a Kryptonian pushing a planet or something.
Last, keep reestablishing Superman's powers and limitations every so often, so new viewers can know it and old viewers will remember it.
2. Make sure to use Superman's weakness of Kryptonite very sparingly if at all, and don't have villains from Big Bad to mooks rely upon it to be a threat to Superman at all. Kryptonite is a weakness of Superman that was played out more than half a century ago, and it has always been a pretty pathetic and poorly used weakness anyway. Kryptonite is one of those weaknesses which really should have become like say, Power Girl's weakness to natural materials, one of those weaknesses that was ignored and dropped entirely not long after it was introduced simply because it was so incredibly stupid. Particularly because Kryptonite is one of those weaknesses that should have been extremely rare but pops up pretty much everywhere now, defeating the point of a weakness to begin with. The magic weakness is much more reasonable since Superman isn't a magical character himself, but it would be much more effective to simply have magic be something that can enhance or innately make the beings that use it as strong or stronger than Superman himself.
Speaking of Superman's weaknesses, don't ever, and I mean even once, have the villain be a threat only because they threaten Lois, the Daily Planet crew, or any random innocent. Sure, the writers can still have the villains threaten these, but don't have the only reason the villain is even an issue is because they threaten these people. It's just passing the buck on to someone far weaker than Superman and it just cheap and extremely terrible lazy writing. Have the villain do this but also be a real physical threat to Superman on their own, without needing Kryptonite either. It ramps up the tension a thousandfold to do this and makes it so much more plausible that the ones being threatened could actually die, especially if they are some no named nobody instead of a long established named character who we all know will survive (or will get revived/retconned if they actually DO die).
3. Probably what is easily the most important of all: Make the villains Superman's equal if not somewhat exceed him, both combatants must be able to defeat each other in a straight out, no holds barred fight where both are fighting at their best. I am talking physically not just mentally here BTW, though both is preferable the former MUST be there. If Superman can push around planets, give say Lex Luthor a Supersuit that can do the same, if not be able to push around even bigger planets. If Superman can turn back time to reverse the damage the villain can do, give the villain the ability to either time travel as well to try and prevent it, or prevent Superman from using said power under most circumstances. Mooks too not just the Big Bad, Superman likely can still take Mooks by the hundreds, this is the very nature of the Mook, but each individual ones still needs to be powerful enough to cause at least a little damage to Superman on their own, thus potentially killing him in numbers otherwise there is no point in their existence. The Mooks acting as a distraction for each other of the Big Bad so they can commit villainy doesn't work as a justification for weak Mooks that can't actually hurt Superman either, for the same reasons as threatening a weak character to create a threat to Superman on it's own doesn't work.
In a video game context this would mean a Superman game where the Mooks are a bunch of robots with super strength and durability and/or sci-fi tech weaponry that can hurt Superman, heavily mutated human freaks that can use a combo of powers, warlocks and witches that can use their magic to reach Superman's level, aliens with comparable strength and durability to Superman, and so on and so forth, doing the same for the main Supervillains.
Sorry if that got ranty, I'm just so sick of Superman never reaching his actual potential as a character and people even actually DEFENDING the way he's been. Superman is easily among one of the worst characters in all of fiction and could be SO much better it's beyond belief.
Sorry for being pedantic, but Superman destroying a solar system with a sneeze was actually caused by Mr. Mxyzptlk, who can rewrite reality at a whim so it's not actually a feat of Superman.Samtemdo8 said: