How SW:TOR is a major step BACKWARDS for MMOs

[luckshot]

Can anybody tell me where I can get a copy of this game, I want to see for myself and compare my opinion with the OP...

...Oh no wait...

Seriously, what can you expect from Bioware Star Wars game,the whole premise of the films were evil versus good. That's what Role-playing is about, playing a role of someone else, you just get to choose how that someone else deals with things.

the general opinion in the op's post is that role playing is about roleplaying YOUR OWN CHARACTER, and not the company's character.

for example: if bioware's idea of a fighter is just a big tough meat head as portrayed in the movies, then everything/choice/action is tainted by that.

if i can build my own mental backstory: say a student (archival studies major) got into some serious trouble with the establishment and got sent to a prison planet (lets say kessle). At the prison he learned he had a natural talent for fighting/survival (fast reflexes, strength...).
Eventually my student is released with a new views on life and pursues his education in fighting in an intelligent way made possible by his years of dedicated study.
maybe he then joins up with a group of mercenaries........


i think you get the point, i can craft beautiful and wondrous back stories in my head that make more sense to role play (to me -the important person in this transaction)than even the character archetype generator created by the world's smartest ape. In the end for me and the op we neither want nor need anyone filling in for our imaginations

/shooting star & harp sound

edited some errors

 

[Vrach]

Started to write a proper response but honestly cba, not one thing you wrote (at least in the TLDR, cba reading the whole thing, sorry) has any ground and everything you mentioned is a step forward and an improvement on the MMO system (based on WoW/Guild Wars at least, which I have experience with and WoW's good for comparison as the current MMO 'leader'). You say "few options, step back" but you're not using absolutes, you're comparing, it's not about "few" it's about "fewer", and everything you mentioned is far more options than WoW/GW give you.

But hey, if it's not your thing, that's fine. Some people don't like having a voice in games and prefer it Freeman style. That's cool, but it still doesn't change the fact that everything you mentioned are improvements and not steps back.

Being a part of the storyline sacrifices freedom?
As opposed to just witnessing events from afar and then kinda just partaking in it?
And having voiced lines sacrifices freedom?
As opposed to having an 'accept' and 'deny/cancel' button?
Everyone having the same companions affects YOUR character's freedom how?

I was going to address all your 'points' more in-depth, but it dawned on you that you're just another anti-fanboy, so I'm not going to bother.
Suffice to say that the basis of your arguments is incredibly stupid, because other MMO's character 'freedom' are actually just them treating you like an unimportant grunt by not actually giving you a role in the storyline.

Seems we think alike

 

[Smokeydubbs]

It isn't a devolution of the RPG it's just the trend. There is a reason WoW is so big, it's simple, easy to get into, and action oriented to be fun. There is a reason all those open-ended, do anything you want, and role play to your hearts content don't have millions of subscribers. TOR is going to compete against WoW, the best way to do that is copy the formula but do it better.

While I do partly agree that RPG is losing it's meaning, it doesn't mean the games wont be fun for the masses. If role playing sparks your fancy, don't play the WoW type of games.

 

[Xanadu84]

Most of your complaints sound like your ignoring the limitations of the medium. If you want absolute, unbridled character freedom, you are going to need to play a tabletop RPG with a competent GM who can make stuff up on the fly, at your request, in moments. And even at that absolute apex of freedom, your still probably looking at several pre-determined story moments, and a choice of character class limited to iconic professions. Limitations are what focus a story.

 

[Blind Sight]

My God, I get it that you might be a little annoyed with what you've seen of the Old Republic, and it's fine for you be prepared to be disappointed (lord knows I already complained about the Videodrome remake enough on this forum) but you know, you should actually PLAY the game before you pass complete judgement on it. Doing so before you've played it, based off of released information just makes you look somewhat uninformed and whiny. Once again, the Big Lebowski's "Well, that's just your opinion, man" applies.

The thing though, you couldn't even count the number of people that consider there opinion fact. My opinion, this is just typical hype. New game comes along, "ohaeynewgamenewgamenewgameforgetwowiquit", they play it, it's successful for a bit, but then ultamitly next thing you know it's being played on Private Servers, and everyone's back to the one that's been there the longest. There's a reason why WoW's been around for 5 or 6 years I think, and the Warcraft franchise itself for for atleast 10+.

Indeed, true, people do get a bit too excited on both sides. However, I find looking forward to a game a bit different then tearing up a game you've never even played. Like I said, it's fine to say 'yeah, I'm not looking forward to it, these are my reasons, etc.' or 'I can't wait for this game, it LOOKS (key word there) great, here are my reasons, etc.'. The problem for me comes when people hear stuff like the fact you can't play an elf or dwarf in the new Dragon Age and instantly shrug it off as them 'dumbing down the game' and such. I'm just saying a game should neither be praised nor torn apart until the product is actually out and playable, I capitalized 'LOOKS' for a reason. Because that's all you're doing, LOOKING at the game, so how do you have any idea how it's going to play? Pre-determined reviews of games make no sense to me haha.

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

Don't be so harsh on a game you have not played yet. Chill out if you don'y like it don't buy it.

 

[kouriichi]

you rant is kinda pointless. If you want complete freedom, go play a table top game.
Until i manage to produce a game, you wont be seeing a good alignment selection system for a while.

 

[Aethren]

While I can see your point, the fact that you called Morrowind, and hell, even Oblivion, (RPGs) the same as Mario, of all things, has led me to stop caring for said points.

 

[LogicNProportion]

A second post from me pertaining to this.

To the people saying that WoW was bad for RPing, I had three years of beautiful RP experience on the game's Rp and RP/PVP servers.

Skirata of the Stormwind Cavalry, betrayed by one of the guild leaders when accusing the leader of being corrupt, left a broken old man, returned as guild master of the Luna Wolves.

Ended the tyranny of bowing down to kings. There was only the light.

 

[GeoPB]

the general opinion in the op's post is that role playing is about roleplaying YOUR OWN CHARACTER, and not the companies character.

for example: if bioware's idea of a fighter is just a big tough meat head as portrayed in the movies, then everything/choice/action is tainted by that.

if i can build my own mental backstory: a say a student (archival studies major) got into some serious trouble with the establishment and got sent to a prison planet (lets say kessle). At the prison he learned he had a natural talent for fighting/survival (fast reflexes, strength...).
Eventually my student is released with a new views on life and pursues his education in fighting in an intelligent way made possible by his years of dedicated study.
maybe he then joins up with a group of mercenaries........


i think you get the point, i can craft beautiful and wondrous back stories in my head that make more sense to role play (to me -the important person in this transaction)than even the character archetype generator created by the smartest ape. In the end for me and the op we neither want nor need anyone filling in for our imaginations

/shooting star & harp sound[/quote]

Well sure, thats all fine and dandy, but this is a star wars game, its a homage to all the great characters of the saga. And I just don't agree that it is a huge step backwards, maybe it doesnt want to be a typical RPG, if anything Bioware is making its own damn genres up!

Plus, who doesn't want to play as a bounty hunter and have their own freaking ship. Each to their own I suppose.

 

[Nazulu]

You know what? You don't have to play it! Amazing, isn't it?

If any of those reasons limits your Roleplaying (i can do bold statements too![sorry, i'll go get my coat]) then frankly you are a crappy roleplayer so go nitpick on something else like actual game mechanics, graphics, or whatever you kids find fancy this days.

Jeez Keava, I know your a lot better than that. You don't have to attack him like he's attacking everyone else. He's just sharing some info while criticising it, which is perfectly acceptable on any forum. And saying "you don't have to play it" is just silly.

Please read this - http://plover.net/~bonds/stupidresponses.html#better

Maybe. But overtime one get's really sick about people complaining about roleplaying in MMOs when they don't even bother to try and do it. Had my share of it while playing WoW and other MMOs. Someone would always moan how the game limits them, how they can never get into any roleplay while all they actually did was bunny-hopping around people and spamming "LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!"

Not maybe, you keep level headed and respond normally. If your so sick of seeing complaints then you probably should start ignoring it. There is no point getting hysterical, it's not like he is destroying your gaming experience, and you will just receive a very similar response that will shit you even further. Is that what you want? Your basically going to start a flame war with your approach.

And I will always stand firm by the "Don't like it - don't buy it/look at it/listen to it" philosophy. If people would just consider that option we would get much less moaning on the forums and less topics about random celebrities being pathetic for whatever reason. Too often people go out full rage just because they bought something they don't like and try to blame the whole world for it, while in the end it's their, as a customers, responsibility to avoid things they might be disappointed with.

It's not moaning, it's criticising, did you read that website I gave you? We all have different beliefs and we all like to share them all the time (like your doing in this thread), with your logic your seen as moaning yourself.

'Don't like it, don't buy it' doesn't solve anything and never will, people criticise because they enjoy it. Everything is on that website I gave you.

Meh, I'm going to try the game out regardless. Heck, I'll probably have fun with it too

And isn't that what really matters?

It's not about that at all. Dastardly is pointing out what he believes are faults or hinders in what so many praise as perfect, and he makes good points because it's not the game I'm looking for it seems. I'll have to wait and do my own research before deciding.

 

[luckshot]

the general opinion in the op's post is that role playing is about roleplaying YOUR OWN CHARACTER, and not the companies character.

for example: if bioware's idea of a fighter is just a big tough meat head as portrayed in the movies, then everything/choice/action is tainted by that.

if i can build my own mental backstory: a say a student (archival studies major) got into some serious trouble with the establishment and got sent to a prison planet (lets say kessle). At the prison he learned he had a natural talent for fighting/survival (fast reflexes, strength...).
Eventually my student is released with a new views on life and pursues his education in fighting in an intelligent way made possible by his years of dedicated study.
maybe he then joins up with a group of mercenaries........


i think you get the point, i can craft beautiful and wondrous back stories in my head that make more sense to role play (to me -the important person in this transaction)than even the character archetype generator created by the smartest ape. In the end for me and the op we neither want nor need anyone filling in for our imaginations

/shooting star & harp sound

Well sure, thats all fine and dandy, but this is a star wars game, its a homage to all the great characters of the saga. And I just don't agree that it is a huge step backwards, maybe it doesnt want to be a typical RPG, if anything Bioware is making its own damn genres up!

Plus, who doesn't want to play as a bounty hunter and have their own freaking ship. Each to their own I suppose.[/quote]

the op could have phrased it better i agree and made it clear that this was purpose made to express and discuss his opinion, but i think on the escapist that can kind of be assumed

that's all great, BUT i don't want to play one of the movies key characters, i want to play my own character in their universe how would 'Sandal Soilsift' exist in the star wars universe, what kind of friends would he have, what would he do to survive, and in my opinion allowing for that allows me to get more involved in the game than seeing the world through the generic "han solo, boba fett, luke, vader...." tinted glasses

 

[CheckD3]

I only read the bold part, I want to post in some topics and get something before class, but I will say this. You can't judge a game based on the concept of ideas without being able to see them executed in the final context of the game.

Just as Roger Ebert's claims of video games aren't art is dismissed by us because he won't pick up a controller, so to is the claim of anything being bad w/o giving it a shot. A friend of mine won't give Rocky Horror a chance because she says she knows her viewing likes. However, she recently learned something she liked that she thought was gross or she would never do or have done because of personal reasons, but ended up liking it.

Context is an important thing here, it helps defining the ideas, good ideas in bad context can make the idea pure crap, but a bad idea that's used in a good context and make it shine bright and make it look good. Don't judge a game by it's art blurbs lol. That's what books get for being so un-interactive, lol

 

[wadark]

(For TL;DR, skip to the bolded section)

The foundation of "role playing" has been (and will always be) taking ownership of a tiny piece of a virual world--whether it was on paper, tabletop, or a computer screen. The developer/GM/etc presents you a world, usually built on a familiar IP, and you create a character that will be your eyes and hands in this world. Already, you OWN a piece of the game world, as your "you" is now a part of it.

MMORPGs were the logical outgrowth of roleplaying + technology. They allowed the characters you created to step into a much larger and more populated world. The particularly good games even allowed you to leave a footprint in that virtual world (in the form of player housing). For all intents and purposes, your character, your house, your "class" or "profession," were all about YOUR choices and YOUR story.

Single-player RPGs evolved (or de-volved) long ago into more of a character "rental" than creation. Your job is to take an extant character through a strictly laid-out story. It's much more playing with action figures than being an action hero. You don't really own anything in the story.

So, single-player RPGs were a combination of early roleplaying ideas (improving your character over time, specialization of characters, etc) and standard single-player action games. I'd argue, in fact, that that's what they are--action games, no more "roleplaying" than Mario.

MMOs were, in a sense, the opposite. They took elements of video games (graphical avatars, internet connectivity, etc) and combined them with the best elements of tabletop games: character creation, self-determination, and freedom. The game had a framework in which to operate, but it also presented you the tools to make your OWN story.

Enter BioWare.

At first, everyone was so excited about SW:TOR partly because they heard so many of the original SWG Devs had moved to the project (SWG being a landmark MMO, pre-NGE, in terms of the freedom to create your own character and story, no matter how heroic OR mundane you preferred him/her to be). But as more and more info is released, TOR is revealing itself to be the exact OPPOSITE in spirit of what made SWG great in its day.

(By the by, SWG is still great for all the same old reasons. The class system is limiting, yes, but there is still a lot to do in-game besides killgrindkill. Housing, intense crafting, beast mastery, etc.)

First and foremost, TOR is going with the same old class system as every other game. It boils down to DPS, tank, healer, support. Just with Star Wars flavoring. And within each class, two separate (talent) trees. Nothing new there. And that's where the bad news gets worse. As more details come to light, we have learned the following "features" are little more than roadblocks to the freedom MMOs once promised:

1) "The game will be story-driven, and your choices will affect your destiny!" - Great, so that means each situation will boil down to one of three choices (aggressive, defensive, or passive, basically). You can either be a dick, a saint, or a gray blob in the middle. But what's more, it means your character is not YOUR character. It is one of a select handful of pre-made characters that you will rent. And when in these games has it ever really been the BEST idea to "mix and match," rather than go all one way or the other? SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

2) "The game will be fully voice-acted." - So you can't even decide what your character says or how he/she says it. The game will be giving you a script and voice. And, due to the expense of such projects, expect the selection of voices (if there are any) to be extremely limited. It might be that your character gets no voice at all (silent protagonist syndrome) which, to me, is better than being forced into a pre-made voice. SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

3) "You can choose from one of these iconic professions!" - So all smugglers will be expected to behave in X way with personality Y, because that's how Han did it. All Bounty Hunters will be X, Y, and Z, because that's how Fett did it. This is exactly what the NGE did to RUIN SWG. SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

4) "You'll get companion characters to will add spice and variety to your gameplay!" - This one actually sounded GREAT... until we found out that EVERYONE gets the same companion based on his/her class. Yes, ALL smugglers will not just have A wookiee companion (like Han!), they'll have the SAME wookiee companion. You don't even get to pick the name. SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

5) "You'll get your own ship, which you can use to travel or complete missions!" - Again, sounded great... until we found out that you get the same ship as everyone else in your class AND that all space missions play out like Starfox as rail- or arena-style episodes. You can't choose your ship, and you can't choose where it goes. SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

Any ONE of these could put a game on shaky ground... but to do all of them at once? This puts SW:TOR firmly in the realm of an action/adventure game that happens to have online co-op. It's not an MMORPG. It's just a big single-player rent-a-character game for which they'll be expected a subscription fee. BioWare has a lot of strengths. It is unfortunately bringing all of the wrong strengths to this MMO.

(A bit more on what made SWG great, for a Star Wars-oriented comparison):

a) Skill choices, instead of hard classes. You could be a cook AND a bounty hunter, if you wanted. You could be a smuggler AND a medic. You could double up on combat or on crafting if you chose. You decided what you wanted your character to be able to do, and you BUILT a class around it.

b) The sheer variety of non-combat activities. Crafting (including a bajillion types), Entertaining (dancing, music, AND image designing), Housing (decorating structures, constructing player cities), Player-driven economy (if it existed, someone somewhere made it). You could play for years, really and truly playing, and never pick up a blaster.

c) Even combat had a ton of variety. Pistols, rifles, carbines, big melee weapons, small melee weapons, no melee weapons, stealth, traps, etc.

d) You didn't have to be the "hero of the galaxy." You could just be a dude living in the Star Wars universe. You could if you wanted... or you could become an economic powerhouse... or just that guy with a really, really cool house. You decided how "epic" your character was.

I don't disagree with you about ToR, but I do about SWG. All of those things sound good when you say them in that context, but look at them from a different perspective and "what made SWG great" may not have actually done so.

Having total Character Freedom in an MMO is all well and good but it tends to drop the gameplay on its head in favor of all-out roleplaying. The problem being that if you leave every nuance up to the player than you have potentially thousands of combinations of skills and abilities. And someone, somewhere is likely to come up with one combo that dominates the game's PvE and/or PvP aspects.

I think we've kinda moved past the era of a simple black/white statement like "more is better". A "bajillion" is a nice number (figuratively speaking) to brag about in a blurb but it also generates the EVE problem of having such a massive number of gameplay nuances that a newbie is going to have a very hard time getting in, and will probably quit early on because the game is impenetrable.

At the end of the day, and this happens in almost every MMO to some degree, there are people who forsake the entire "game" part in favor of having COMPLETE customization, which may be fun for a time but, at least in my eyes, turns the game into a glorified chat room/Second Life kind of software, instead of a game.

Yes when you say, "Oh ToR is lame because you can't customize outside of a set class structure" or something, it sounds like ToR might be worse of for it. But in reality some of those customization options have to be nixed in order to create a balanced game. Its also worth noting that every customization option that gets added takes time to develop and if a developer doesn't think that such a feature will be used by a significant portion of their player-base, then they are going to want to spend that time on a feature they DO think will be widely used.

 

[Sir_Tor]

Are you saying this game is turning over to the dark side?

 

[Delusibeta]

It's a bit like complaining that Guild Wars 2 will have micro-transactions. Oh, wait, we don't know that.

 

[Nazulu]

Don't be so harsh on a game you have not played yet. Chill out, if you don't like it don't buy it.

His criticising for the fun of it and saying to avoid it is pointless, it doesn't solve anything for anyone.

While I can see your point, the fact that you called Morrowind, and hell, even Oblivion, (RPGs) the same as Mario, of all things, has led me to stop caring for said points.

So you can see his points but don't care anymore because your personally offended? It's like saying you understand them but no longer want to understand them.

Indeed, true, people do get a bit too excited on both sides. However, I find looking forward to a game a bit different then tearing up a game you've never even played. Like I said, it's fine to say 'yeah, I'm not looking forward to it, these are my reasons, etc.' or 'I can't wait for this game, it LOOKS (key word there) great, here are my reasons, etc.'. The problem for me comes when people hear stuff like the fact you can't play an elf or dwarf in the new Dragon Age and instantly shrug it off as them 'dumbing down the game' and such. I'm just saying a game should neither be praised nor torn apart until the product is actually out and playable, I capitalized 'LOOKS' for a reason. Because that's all you're doing, LOOKING at the game, so how do you have any idea how it's going to play? Pre-determined reviews of games make no sense to me haha.

Actually, I find it healthy to criticise or praise idea's before hand because the developer knows what people are looking forward to and everyone get's the idea of what is going to happen. Overall, I found this thread pretty useful.

I don't necessarily agree with the OP that this is a step backwards but I don't see how this is going to work out either, like what happens when you reach the end? Do you simply stop playing or does it turn out like WOW, taking on raids and rewards? Little things like that.

 

[Tyrannowalefish_Rex]

This is all nice, but it's not universal. Subjective experiences may vary. There is good reason to say that immersing in a different role is more playing a role than just adapting to an open ruleset while basically keeping the same personality.
Also what SW:TOR is basically doing is more like improving the average quality of the quests (though most of them will still be a generic waste of time). There is still enough choice, only the world itself has more restrictions, not your character's own story.

 

[The Bandit]

at least to give it a chance before calling it out on being the anti-christ

Step in the wrong direction, albeit huge. Not the anti-christ. The problem is that everyone is hailing it as the Messiah, so calling it any less SEEMS like calling it the anti-christ.

I'm quoting this because I'm too lazy to snip your OP.

First off, are we really talking about innovation in the MMO genre? Really? The fact that this MMO is in space, rather than generic fantasy land, is mind bogglingly innovative.

As for your main five points, only two of them are provable (the companion characters and the space nonsense). And even one of those is kind of wrong. I'm pretty sure you can choose where your ship goes (i.e. which planet). If you wanted to explore the entire galaxy, then you really need to chill out. Expectations like that are so insane they aren't even worth acknowledging.

As for the rest:

1. How is this different from any other RPG ever? Ever ever ever? Not to mention the fact that this is a Star Wars game (remember those light and dark side things?), so expecting variety is a little unrealistic. KOTOR II added the most gray areas of any SW game before it, and everyone fucking hated the thing. So, there you go.

Even though I agree with you that it will boil down to x or y choices (there are no passive choices in SW, seriously, so you're actually being a little optimistic), the game isn't even out yet, so criticizing it for that is just making up your mind before you see it. It's like me saying all JRPGs will suck and will always suck, no matter what happens to the genre (which they will).

2. I honestly don't know if your PC will be voice acted, as in Mass Effect. I don't think this is a negative thing though. The awkward silences whenever your PC says something has always been awkward in every RPG ever. But, that's just my opinion, so there's no point in arguing over it.

As for a script, unless you can't choose your dialog (again, I don't know if you can or not, but Jesus Christ, why wouldn't you be able to?) then every RPG ever has had a script. Again, no difference. If you aren't able to pick your responses, then I'll change my mind and agree with you 100%. But, once again, you're criticizing before you see the game. You do not know how the selection of voice actors will work, so stfu.

3. Actually, no. That's completely wrong. They've mentioned that you can actually have a light side character that starts out as a Sith, or vice versa (and, from my understanding, it's not "you come to the light side" but you are actually a good guy that's being trained as a Sith, which I think is awesome). I don't know if this will play into non-Jedi classes, but I would assume so (maybe a bounty hunter working for the Republic?).

4. Yeah, that's bullshit. How effing retarded.

5. They can't design a separate ship for everyone. Ideally, you would have your own ship customizer similar to the character creator, but whatever. Stuff like that doesn't bother me. It is a legitimate complaint for those that care.

I think your judgments are really, really premature, dude. Just chill out and wait for more info

Also, "sacrifices character freedom" is really fucking obnoxious and I wish you would stop saying it.

Also also, I would've read everything you said if you hadn't suggested I just read the bold. Next time, I wouldn't bold things. Just my two cents.

EDIT: "...awkward silences have always been awkward." I should proof read.

 

[Keava]

*snips to conserve the virtual rainforests*

Oh believe me i am always level headed, i just speak what i actually think instead pretending to like people, both online and in real life. When i see someone 'complain' how game mechanics that are created for consistency of core gameplay and to allow 'casuals' a seamless experience are somehow making -roleplaying- impossible i will judge, and i will be merciless in my judgement. Bullshit is still bullshit even if you draw a happy face on it.

I read the website, i wasn't really impressed, sounds to me like another attempt of political correctness over the internet, something i refuse to follow. There is a difference between critique and simple moaning/complaining. Critique is based on facts, uses arguments and provides solutions, it explains and exposes flaws so that they can be avoided in future and takes context into account.
Problem is the OP misses the context, comparing a -product- like TOR to a 'vision' of a 'perfect game' in his head. Whenever you create something, a toaster, a car or a game you first think - who i want to sell it to. When you design a van it's obvious you are not thinking about street racing in the first place. In case of game, with such high budget you plan it so it appeals to as big crowd as possible, which means cutting on features that only 'hardcore' fans of given genre might desire.

BioWare in their design philosophy is very similar to Blizzard, whenever you consider it as good or bad thing. They know their playerbase, they know the market trends and they move within those bounds. Neither of them is exactly innovative when it comes to the core gameplay, but if you like the type of games they are making you will rarely be disappointed in the products they offer.
TOR is still probably the most innovative big budget MMO of last years (since WoW's release) because they attempt to make it based on an story that is actually tied to your character instead being just a buzz in a background. AoC tried it on small scale and as far as i know Tortage was considered one of best MMO starting zones even with it's limits, instancing and other issues. If TOR manages to get that feeling and additionally expand on freedoms within game then it will be a step forward.

You know why the sentiment of all old MMO players - UO - never got remade with our current generation of computers? Because back then the market was niche, there were only 'hardcore' players and 100k subscription was a massive amount. In UO you had to spend hours doing mundane tasks, often simply macroing them as you read a book to get anywhere. Now you have games played by 10 millions of people from which most doesn't really want something like UO. They want something they can have fun in, something you can turn on, relax for half an hour or more and go to sleep knowing you made some visible progress. That's exactly what WoW did right.