How the hell did Game of Thrones get its 'OMG Anyone Could Die' reputation?

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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shrekfan246 said:
Tyrion has nearly died multiple times and is being hunted by everyone in the Seven Kingdoms
In the books he's also a bitter, depressed and vindictive alcoholic who's on board with Varys plan to send him to meet Dany more out of spite and apathy then any real conviction that she's a good ruler. Book Tyrion has also had his face mutilated to the point that his nose is more or less chopped off and had to face the fact that his mistress was only playing him to get in with the good life and didn't give a shit about him even if he loved her. He also find out that the girl he loved in his youth actually loved him back and that his father coerced her into saying she didn't and was just a whore on his payroll, as a way to hurt Tyrion. Both of the latter points are what sets him off as a depressed alcoholic more then any outstanding death warrants in Westeros.

So yeah, the books are really cold hearted in terms of how they treat all their characters, even those that survive.
 

shrekfan246

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Gethsemani said:
Snip

So yeah, the books are really cold hearted in terms of how they treat all their characters, even those that survive.
Well, yes, for the sake of brevity I didn't want to get too in-depth with all of the shit they've gone through, just some of the most recent stuff. XD
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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undeadsuitor said:
I'll never forgive them for killing off Jason Momoa before we got to see his dick.
I know right? After Alfie Allen set a good precedent on the show I was psyching myself up for that very moment. But alas, we only got a bunch of scenes show him ever more sickly and pale.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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I never got this "anyone can die" reputation either, and I don't even watch the show. But for as long as the show's been around I keep on seeing the same faces in publicity material... Jon Snow, Tyrion, girl with white hair, the same two or three Lannisters... six years now of the same people looking super worried in TV promos. Meanwhile everybody and their mother seems convinced that OMG ANYBODY CAN DIE for some reason.
 

Breakdown

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hermes said:
Breakdown said:
In addition to Ned Stark and the Red Wedding, Oberyn Martell's death was a shock, particularly in regards to the gruesome nature of the death.

The TV show seemed to be killing off a supporting character every week for the last few series.
Yes, that is true. But it seems more motivated to keeping the cast a manageable size than banking on the shock value the earlier seasons had.

My point is, Dontos Hollard, Yara Greyjoy, Meera Reed, Grey Worm and Missandei are likely to get killed off at any point to provide some shock value and trim the cast now that they fulfilled their roles (the same way I felt they were trimming a lot of fat from the show by killing Stannis Baratheon's army off screen, or the entire country of Dorne in a couple episodes), but characters like Varys, Tyrion and Jon Snow can dance naked on the sharp side of the Iron Throne and suffer nothing but some minor bruises.

Again, not a criticism of the show writers... if Martin were able to work with less than a hundred named characters and didn't stand on top of an herculean manuscript (the last time he said the next book was going to be more than a thousand pages long, and it sounded more like a threat), he would have finished the entire story already.
Dontos is already dead, isn't he?

I'd say that Missandei and Grey Worm are untouchable though. Game of Thrones has been criticised in the media for the lack of BME characters, so I think the writers will protect any BME characters they do have. I think that's probably why there's the half arsed attempt to establish a relationship between those characters, to flesh them out a bit.

I was wondering what happened to Ghost. Did he get killed off, or did he just get sick of Jon's stupidity?
 

laggyteabag

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I think that characters have plot armour this season.

Jon Snow *should* have drowned underwater, this episode
The Wights had no reason to try and drag Tormund under the ice. They should have just killed him
The only two characters that died had no real story to tell, anyway. Benjen only appeared once, last season, and Thoros was the least important character in the group.

The Dragon was the big death, but even then, Drogon was the only dragon that is worth a damn. The other two may as well not have existed up until this point.
 

happyninja42

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It has to do with certain character archetypes that usually have plot armor. The most glaring example is the Pregnant Woman. In just about every form of media, when there is a pregnant woman, she's going to live (at least long enough to give birth). Because infanticide is just something we don't really get behind as a society. So when you see a pregnant woman, and they've spent time building up this "Twu Luv" story arc between her and the Noble King, you assume they are going to live, perhaps they die later, and their kid becomes the Final Hero, continuing their legacy or something, but they will usually live at least long enough for the mother to go into labor at the worst possible moment for the heroes. The only other recent example I can think of to break this trope, aside from GoT, is Fury Road.

So when you have a story where the pregnant woman gets shivved in her belly, and violently killed herself, along with every other protagonist aligned character in the scene, it sort of tears down our pre-conceived assumptions about types of characters, and their survivability.

Also, children in general tend to have Plot Armor, take Stannis' daughter. She hits several Usually Don't Die tropes. Only child of a stoic and distant father, suffering from a debilitating disease/deformity since childhood, gentle innocent nature, spends her time teaching a beloved elder friend how to read, etc etc. That kind of character usually survives, and becomes a kind of healing religous/political figure in the aftermath, to help heal the wounds of the war. But no, she gets burned alive as part of a blood sacrifice to a god.

Also, animals usually have plot armor, particularly beloved pets that seem to have a Mystic Bond with their humans. Unless it's a movie like Old Yeller, those tend to survive, because like children, as a whole, we don't tend to enjoy seeing animals be harmed. In fact it's a really easy visual short hand used to tell the audience who the Bad Guy is. Have them hurt an animal, or slap a woman, and they're instantly categorized as the Bad Guy. So having the wolves die left and right in GoT helps to further break the most common types of survivors we see in these type stories.

It's not a permanent rule of course, and I'm sure people could delve and find other examples where these tropes don't happen, but in your standard mass media, particularly tv shows, these are very common tropes that have been used for decades, and are pretty ingrained in our heads as How The Story Should Go.
 

manic_depressive13

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I don't get how Ned Stark was the main character? He was an asshole, an idiot, and boring to boot. He killed the guy who ran from the ice zombies, and then was like "yeah, I guess he didn't deserve to die but it was my duty to kill him". He killed his own kid's magical wolf, not bothering to stand up for it at all. The entire time he's at the palace it's literally spelt out for us that he's in way over his head and he has no fucking idea how the court works. Meanwhile there are like 10 other PoV characters, many of whom are children and way more sympathetic than Ned, so what makes him "main"?
 

Amaror

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Mostly how it plays with tropes and stereotypes. Ned Stark is the stereotypical "Protagonist Man". The good person that doesn't play by the corrupt rules of everyone else and shows them all how it's done. Then he gets executed, but even that scene plays with tropes. His daughter is watching, there is a whole horde of people at the event. Most stories would have a brave hero jump out of the mass of people to save the protagonist at the last second. But Ned dies regardless. Than his son seemingly takes over as the "Just-Protagonist getting revenge for his family", gets a love story and then gets killed again in the red wedding. With his pregnant wife. There are lots of people with some plot armor in GOT but some shocks like this that really break up what you expect to happen just keep you engaged since you are never really sure. Maybe they break the convention this time, maybe the protagonist is not safe here.
 

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Zhukov said:
There are 14 main POV characters [http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/POV_character]. The total body count among them amounts to... two, maybe three.
Keep in mind that for us dirty peasants who don't read the books the difference between a POV charactar and an important charactar is not nearly so visible as it is for book readers. Secondly, in all seasons of the show until now Dany was mostly disconnected from the rest of the plot and very different in tone, besides one failed assasination and a claim to a throne far away. Stannis, whoever he was in the book, is just a boring, somewhat hypocritical zealot in the show. The ice zombies are just zombies, and while important to the plot, rather boring. Jon Snow was insufferable at first. The Dornish and Greyhoys appear little and besides Theon and Oberynn, most of them aren't well liked and in any case, don't have that much screen time. The Lannister-Stark conflict formed for me, and several others I know who just watched the show, the most interesting and central conflict. In hindsight it is easy to see that Ned was being set up as an old world veteran, incapable of functioning in a less military and more political setting, and Rob as just plain na?ve, lacking in disciplined vassals and outnumbered but the show could have taken a different direction. Some other charactars like Joffrey just die in plausible ways but hardly expected. He is poisoned at the peak of his power, with the Starks dead, just married his wife/ally, Stannis defeated at the blackwater, etc. Most charactars who die are also kind of flat, but since the arcs of the other charactars take quite a while I'm not sure how easy that is to see if you've only seen the first two or three seasons.

manic_depressive13 said:
I don't get how Ned Stark was the main character? He was an asshole, an idiot, and boring to boot. He killed the guy who ran from the ice zombies, and then was like "yeah, I guess he didn't deserve to die but it was my duty to kill him". He killed his own kid's magical wolf, not bothering to stand up for it at all. The entire time he's at the palace it's literally spelt out for us that he's in way over his head and he has no fucking idea how the court works. Meanwhile there are like 10 other PoV characters, many of whom are children and way more sympathetic than Ned, so what makes him "main"?
Like I said I've only seen the show. Ned's being in way over his head as you put it can easily be seen as his aversion to backroom power politics, assasinations, expectation of the king to actually rule, unwillingness to overspend, and more entirely reasonable things. He didn't want the job either. This might make it hard for him to function in Kingslanding but it does make him likable. He has several charactaristics that even make him at least somewhat uniquely qualified for the job as hand. He is the only person besides Cercei who ever tells Robert he is wrong about anything. Considering the court was already filled with corrupt scheming spymasters, none of whom where particularly loyal to Robert, let alone him, when he arrived, and the fact that he resisted getting the job in the first place, I'm not sure how you think he could have done better.

As for killing Lady. What would you have liked him to do? Fight the royal excecutioner and then get butchered by the kingsguards? He did say in no uncertain words to Robert he considered it wrong but this is a world where "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" to quote fictionalised Athenians. Consider the case of Janos Slynt who is ordered by the king to murder children and than banished by the acting hand of the king for murdering children and not being liked him in general. Regardless of whether he deserved it, this was a person of considerable power who was banished to frozen exile and celibacy because a single temporary higher up at court didn't like him. Robert was the king. When Robert wanted something he tended to get his way, except in rare cases and never because anybody could just tell him no. I took that scene as Ned angrily accepting he was outranked rather than just killing the animal because he didn't care.

Ned is hardly perfect but his main problems seem to be a bad relationship with his daughters and general lack of effective rulership as the hand.
 

Silvanus

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manic_depressive13 said:
I don't get how Ned Stark was the main character? He was an asshole, an idiot, and boring to boot. He killed the guy who ran from the ice zombies, and then was like "yeah, I guess he didn't deserve to die but it was my duty to kill him".
No, he said no such thing. He said the man who passes the judgement should swing the sword, and if that man cannot bring himself to do so, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

That is advice to Bran for the future. Ned did swing the sword, so it does not exonerate the deserter at all.

manic_depressive13 said:
He killed his own kid's magical wolf, not bothering to stand up for it at all.
This is a medieval-feudal society, operating a system of political alliance which relies heavily on shows of respect and deference for such alliances to work. At that point in time, acquiescing to Cersei's request seemed quite reasonably to be the best way to protect the relationship of Stark, Lannister and Baratheon.

People tend to judge Ned with a colossal amount of hindsight, all things considered.
 
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Ned n Rob Starks death, Drogo being killed by an infection. TV only fans have no POV characters as such, so this first impression of "main characters" dying so suddenly when in other TV shows they'd have been spared, has stuck with us.
plus a hell of a lot of secondary characters have been mercilessly killed off, which keeps to tone up.
 

manic_depressive13

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Pseudonym said:
As for killing Lady. What would you have liked him to do? Fight the royal excecutioner and then get butchered by the kingsguards?
Yeah, he didn't even have the power to stop them killing a dog which wasn't involved in the altercation. His death was broadcast a mile away and the fact that he was a boring asshole suggested the author wasn't super invested in him. Overall though, I don't see how he can be "the main" character out of 10+ PoV characters. Is he even the first we're introduced to? If you had asked me half way through the first book who the main character was, I would have said Bran, with Danaerys being pretty important since she's the only PoV character we had for the entire sideplot on a different continent.
Silvanus said:
Actually...
Ned Stark's version of duty and honour was the cardboard unsympathetic version that screamed "I'm going to die". Heroes don't kill cute innocent animals and a terrified man who we just saw in the previous scene didn't stand a chance against the zombie. Real main characters follow their heart and do the right thing a la Jon Snow joining the wildlings. They save women from their rapey dads and help the useless fat kid fit in. The real subversion would have been if a boring asshole like Ned Stark had stayed alive while the obvious author favourite Tyrion had died.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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I know this is bit of a Necro but I have something to say and would like to add my two cents.

I think its less "Anyone Can Die." and more "The Good Guys Die, and the Bad Guys Got Away With It."

The Deaths of The Stark Family, Ned, Catelyn, and Robb are a shock because despite their human flaws as people, they are still from a narretive perspective, the Good Guys.

And even though the technically bad guy characters like Tywin Lannister die(say what you will, him planning the Red Wedding and the Sack of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion makes him quite the irredeemable bastard) their deaths did not have the justice. Tyrion kills him but to the audiance it felt hollow. Joffrey died to poison to furthur the politcal ambitions of Littlefinger and Olenna Tyrell, its not the same as say if Arya actually revenged killed Joffrey.