How to control an Avatar game

[chikusho]

I'm no game developer, but I am a huge fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra.
Also, I'm way into games, particularly the third person action kind. Up until now, we've only got one lackluster ATLA game, and the upcoming TLOK game by Platinum just looks like your average dial-a-combo brawler.
So, how could someone make a game in a way that captures the essence of the show? I have a possible solution.

The key things I would want in an ATLA game is to feel like have control over the bending, and be able to switch at will and adapt to different situations. Press X to fireball simply doesn't cut it.
Also, naturally you'd want to play as the Avatar, so that sooner or later you have access to all elements. So how do we make that possible on a standard Xbox or Playstation controller?
Finally, I imagine this as a third person, pulled back over the shoulder kind of perspective.

Bending

The most important part of this idea is that all bending is controlled with the right stick. You could flick it, hold it or swirl it around to control the elements, and input combinations to do special moves.

For instance, downward motions could be defensive actions, like if you hold down the stick you raise a wall of earth or create a shield of ice. Flick downward with the right timing, and you could counter an attack by deflecting an incoming fireball, or turn the flames right back at your opponents.

Upward motions could be offensive actions, like throwing out quick bursts of wind, or swirling the stick upwards from the left or right to go around an enemy's guard. Swirling it around completely could create a tornado, or charge up lightning to throw.


Elements

To switch between the elements, you could use either the four face buttons, X O [] /\, or possibly the D-pad. That would make it quick and easy to adapt on command, and mix up your strategies with the different elements and abilities. All elements could use basically the same inputs, but would have different effects, strengths and weaknesses against other enemy types.

Combat and movement

In fighting situations, the game could auto-lock on an enemy, either at the press of a button or automatically. Then you could scroll through the targets using the top two shoulder buttons.

Movement is naturally on the left stick. But when locked on, any directional input on the left stick could execute a quick dodge in that direction, which goes over into a run if you keep holding it.


So, what do you think? Would something like this be possible?

 

[sageoftruth]

It already is, and I just bought it on Steam. A new Legend of Korra beat 'em up, made by Platinum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Korra_(video_game)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk96W6n0Fvo

 

[GloatingSwine]

Bending

The most important part of this idea is that all bending is controlled with the right stick. You could flick it, hold it or swirl it around to control the elements, and input combinations to do special moves.

For instance, downward motions could be defensive actions, like if you hold down the stick you raise a wall of earth or create a shield of ice. Flick downward with the right timing, and you could counter an attack by deflecting an incoming fireball, or turn the flames right back at your opponents.

Upward motions could be offensive actions, like throwing out quick bursts of wind, or swirling the stick upwards from the left or right to go around an enemy's guard. Swirling it around completely could create a tornado, or charge up lightning to throw.

So, what do you think? Would something like this be possible?

This, fundamentally, is how Too Human's combat worked.

Remember Too Human? Everyone hated it because using the analogue sticks like that is actually really bad. Pressing a button has nice haptic feedback, you press the button and you know you pressed the button because you felt it happen. Sticks don't quite give that same feedback though, especially tiddly little analogue sticks (which is why srs bsns fighting game fans like to have fight pads or arcade sticks because dpads and arcade sticks have better haptic feedback to do Zs and stuff.) Especially when you have multiple circle motions that do the same things, the design doesn't give you enough feedback to say whether you started in the right place or not without an octagonal gate and that's bad for the fluidity of motion, so the controls actually have to be really loose and wooly.

 

[chikusho]

This, fundamentally, is how Too Human's combat worked.

Remember Too Human? Everyone hated it because using the analogue sticks like that is actually really bad. Pressing a button has nice haptic feedback, you press the button and you know you pressed the button because you felt it happen. Sticks don't quite give that same feedback though, especially tiddly little analogue sticks (which is why srs bsns fighting game fans like to have fight pads or arcade sticks because dpads and arcade sticks have better haptic feedback to do Zs and stuff.) Especially when you have multiple circle motions that do the same things, the design doesn't give you enough feedback to say whether you started in the right place or not without an octagonal gate and that's bad for the fluidity of motion, so the controls actually have to be really loose and wooly.

Just looked at Too Human, and this looks nothing like what I described. First off, I was thinking a third person view, over the shoulder a bit pulled back maybe, and have the battles be slower and more tactical than a beat-em-up.

Also, remember Skate? That was fairly popular, and they basically only used the stick controls for tricks. I was thinking that using the stick kind of like I described up top could open up the possibilities for you to have more control over the different projectiles.

It already is, and I just bought it on Steam. A new Legend of Korra beat 'em up, made by Platinum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Korra_(video_game)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk96W6n0Fvo

Yeah, I mentioned that up top, and explained why that's not really what I'm looking for.

 

[jamail77]

So, what do you think?

I think I'm just glad I wasn't the only skeptical of this game. The low scores reviewers have been giving it are justified on EXACTLY the things I was worried this game indulged in, which all but practically confirms my concerns. I'll still buy it on a heavy discount: I think it's worth that much. It made me upset enough, seeing all the overwhelming positive player reviews, that I started a new discussion: "It's a budget title" does not excuse quality of fun [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.863661-Its-a-budget-title-does-not-excuse-quality-of-fun#21544579].

As for your idea, I'm not so sure it works so well in practice. However, because martial artist foundations are so fundamental to the universe of Avatar I do agree you should feel like you're performing martial arts. The Platinum game has some properly set up basic moves in terms of martial arts stances and what not, but for the most part just defaults to the developer's flashy combat style. I think this does a disservice to the Avatar universe as the fighting and bending is so precise, so deliberate, so elegant it's actually funner to watch than pure flash. Heck, sometimes that elegance doesn't prevent flash, but includes it. But, Platinum went straight for pure flash like the 100 fire kicks finish move Korra can do that she would never do in the show.

 

[chikusho]

As for your idea, I'm not so sure it works so well in practice. However, because martial artist foundations are so fundamental to the universe of Avatar I do agree you should feel like you're performing martial arts. The Platinum game has some properly set up basic moves in terms of martial arts stances and what not, but for the most part just defaults to the developer's flashy combat style. I think this does a disservice to the Avatar universe as the fighting and bending is so precise, so deliberate, so elegant it's actually funner to watch than pure flash. Heck, sometimes that elegance doesn't prevent flash, but includes it. But, Platinum went straight for pure flash like the 100 fire kicks finish move Korra can do that she would never do in the show.

Exactly, I mean.. You want to be able to really manipulate the environment. See a river? Flood those fuckers! Open flames? Explode that shit. In a valley? Hello cave in! And even if you don't go the environmental route, you still want to have a system that's open enough to experiment with and find a style that suits you. What I'm wishing for might not actually be possible with the input methods we have available.. I mean, technically you could do a Kinect game with stances and such, but that would probably be and feel ultra silly, even if it did work.

I keep racking my brain for ways you could do something like this with a controller.. I mean, the best part of The Force Unleashed were the force manipulation of the environment, but that's probably too slow and awkward to base an entire game on.. And Metal Gear Rising worked splendidly with its counter system, but that's still just one stick input in a mostly dial-a-combo game.

 

[jamail77]

And Metal Gear Rising worked splendidly with its counter system, but that's still just one stick input in a mostly dial-a-combo game.

I love that term you coined. "Dial-a-combo". We need to get that trending. I don't want to derail the discussion, but we should make a list of games that fall under that and start tagging games on Steam that fall under the category. It might be funny.

 

[chikusho]

I love that term you coined. "Dial-a-combo". We need to get that trending. I don't want to derail the discussion, but we should make a list of games that fall under that and start tagging games on Steam that fall under the category. It might be funny.

From what I know, that term's been around since... The original Killer Instinct I guess? But sure, that would be fun, hehe.

 

[Something Amyss]

Remember Too Human? Everyone hated it because using the analogue sticks like that is actually really bad.

The problem with Too Human was that its controls sucked, period. It played a lot like a third person shooter or twin stick shooter, but worse. The "worse" part is the real issue, not the stick part.

 

[Doom972]

I think it would be best if they made an Avatar or Korra RPG - one where you don't play as either of the titular characters, but a bender you generate at the beginning of the game (and maybe some party members). This would allow for a simplified combat system and will leave room for exploration and an interesting plot. Of course, they'll never do something so good with this license.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Remember Too Human? Everyone hated it because using the analogue sticks like that is actually really bad.

The problem with Too Human was that its controls sucked, period. It played a lot like a third person shooter or twin stick shooter, but worse. The "worse" part is the real issue, not the stick part.

My contention is that the controls sucked because they used the analogue sticks for a job they're bad at.

 

[Something Amyss]

My contention is that the controls sucked because they used the analogue sticks for a job they're bad at.

And my contention is that it's not the case.

 

[Autumnflame]

South park has something sort of like that with the farting mechanics but thats a turnbased rpg.

there is always Smash bros stlye with button but direction movement .

 

[GloatingSwine]

My contention is that the controls sucked because they used the analogue sticks for a job they're bad at.

And my contention is that it's not the case.

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I had quite a lot more experience playing Too Human than you did, based on the differing number of achievements we have on the game. You completed the first level once, I got the full 50 including all the achievements for doing levels with no deaths (the hardest to do), and explored its combat mechanics and controls to a greater degree than you in the process of doing that,

The problem with Too Human's controls wasn't that they were particularly unresponsive (the usual problem of "bad" controls is that they don't respond to input in a timely or accurate fashion), the problem with them was that using the analogue sticks for melee combat is fundamentally awkward and forces giving up camera control which is usually mapped to the right stick.

The twinstick feel of Too Human was forced by the compromises in camera control required when you map combat inputs to the right analogue stick, and it demonstrates that that mapping is not very good for melee focused games.

Unless you constrain the scope of the game and the camera's movement in a manner similar to Fight Night (which also uses the right stick for combat inputs, but gets away with it because it is simulating a fight with more limited scope, a boxing ring and a single opponent, and keeps the camera at a relatively fixed perspective), then using the right stick for combat inputs is never going to be as natural or effective as pressing buttons.

 

[Something Amyss]

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I had quite a lot more experience playing Too Human than you did, based on the differing number of achievements we have on the game. You completed the first level once, I got the full 50 including all the achievements for doing levels with no deaths (the hardest to do), and explored its combat mechanics and controls to a greater degree than you in the process of doing that,

Which is meaningless, as I've related it to other games and styles of play. I mean, I'm glad you did your research, and I'm glad you did so well with a game you think works so horribly, but that changes little.

Further, you brought up fighting games, and while you can insist that that fight sticks are the thing, for the longest time it was directional pads that were really the thing.

It just looks like a series of excuses.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Which is meaningless, as I've related it to other games and styles of play. I mean, I'm glad you did your research, and I'm glad you did so well with a game you think works so horribly, but that changes little.

What it changes is that I understand the limits of the system and where its weaknesses lie better than you. You "related it to other games and styles of play" by saying "like twinstick but worse", but not actually elaborating on how or why it was worse. I am saying that the weakness is a weakness of design not execution, and so other things using similar designs will share the weakness unless they compromise strongly to overcome it.

Further, you brought up fighting games, and while you can insist that that fight sticks are the thing, for the longest time it was directional pads that were really the thing.

It just looks like a series of excuses.

Directional pads were never considered better than an arcade style fight stick for playing games which were originally designed to be played on an arcade machine, they were just the best you could commonly get for a long time (and they're still better than tiddly analogue sticks.)

That's why the competitive fighting game scene grew out of arcades.

 

[L. Declis]

Well, let's say we can use Kinest or something like it.

So, you would first need a really good physics system. Think Hydrophobia for water, think Far Cry for fire, earth and air have probably got games which did them well.

You need it so if fire touches grass, the grass catches fire. If you throw Earth on it, it goes out. And so on.

Then, you can shout out "Fire", "Ice", "Air" or "Earth" to activate whichever power you want. You can then use the Kinect camera to quickly grab things on screen and maybe throw them at people, or if you're using Earth and you throw your hands up, a wall of Earth appears, that kind of thing.

Have some kind of mana system so it doesn't get too over the top.

Now, while you're using your actual hands for the bending, you can import some kind of Tekken/Street Fighter esque combat system, combined with some kind of jumping/climbing mechanic to platform about like Devil May Cry (DMC) style movement.

 

[jamail77]

I love that term you coined. "Dial-a-combo". We need to get that trending. I don't want to derail the discussion, but we should make a list of games that fall under that and start tagging games on Steam that fall under the category. It might be funny.

From what I know, that term's been around since... The original Killer Instinct I guess? But sure, that would be fun, hehe.

Yeaaaaaahhh, no. Never mind. I found out on another thread the term tends to be used derogatorily. It sounded like it has a negative connotation because you were using it to describe a game in a negative light, but I assumed it could also be used positively like people who take back words formerly used to insult them. It sure does explain why I never hear it being used much. Looking up the term, it became popular and died out quick after I got into gaming on a more dedicated level (age 8), but before I got into gaming culture. Point is that I don't want to be a jerk and troll Steam tags for people honestly looking for guidance. The system was abused enough by trolls in the beginning.

 

[default]

Mmm, I don't think the stick would work. Even if you made it so bending would only be activated if, say, the player held the left trigger it still takes camera control away from them. Even if you had the targeted enemy centred on screen it would still feel a little sticky and unintuitive, which takes away from the flow we're going for here.

I think the whole bending concept would work best (from what I'm thinking of anyway) with a really simple but dynamic and flexible 3D combat system based around the face buttons, a dash and a timed block on the bumper triggers (like for instance buffeting away an incoming attack with airbending or quickly raising a stone wall).






On an Xbox controller:


X is for a light attack.

Y is for a heavier attack.

B is for a ranged attack.



The key here would be to ensure each move can flow directly and intuitively into each other, with the previous moves affecting the next. The player has a limited, recharging stamina meter so they can't just combo forever, but this way they can perform and create their own chain of moves, learn what affects what, cancel out of a series of moves with a dash, adapt on the fly and always feel in control.





Say the player is playing a firebender:


A light attack into a heavy attack would perform a leaping, fire sweeping kick. A heavy attack into a light attack would flow into a fast, forward thrust that pushes the enemy away. A light attack into a ranged attack shoots a quick burst of ranged fire, whereas a heavy attack into a ranged attack would shoot a large swathe of flames you can use to zone out or force away your opponent. And each seperate sort of attack has its own movesets.



I think another thing that needs to be taken into consideration is how each bending is going to control and play. I'm hardly an expert on the show, but firebending would be based on rhythm and control. Earthbending would be based on grounded play, heavy attacks and timing. Airbending would have a great airgame, zone control and speed, and so on.





I also think the game would work best on both a thematic and gameplay level if you aren't just comboing endlessly against each other like in most fighters, and instead go for a more refined and tactical approach that forces players to read their opponent, attack and react or face harsh consequences for screwing up. Makes the game feel a little more active, precise and deadly, rather than just endless strings of characters spinning around in flashy combos that shave off 1/10th of the enemies healthbar. Think more martial art simulator than traditional 'fighter'.




Meh, I'm just musing off ideas here. Let me know what you think.