I think the big problem of RPGs is the ammount of time you spend in menu screens, if item equipping was simpler to understand (ie oblivion WTF do all those symbols mean?) a simple magic, defense, and strength system like kingdom hearts would help a bunch to the more complicated RPGs.
How to make RPGs better
- Thread starter Breedbate
- Start date
You WHAT?!?!?!? Don't get me wrong, massive fan of TES games here, but "every god damn opportunity imaginable"? Where was the opportunity to join the Mythic Dawn? Where was the opportunity to throw the amulet into a river? Where was the opportunity to sit back and let Kvatch burn? Why couldn't you kill Martin before his Big Finale? And most importantly, WHY COULDN'T YOU ATTACK DAGON?! As for Morrowind- Where was the opportunity to join Dagoth Ur? Why couldn't you lead a load of your guild members to war or glory against a hoard of invaders? I'm not saying these DIDN'T end up in the game, but it was through the users writing mods, not the writers at Beth who made the games what they could have beenBreedbate post=9.68481.630253 said:
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Yeah, the first one had about as much depth as Diablo, so It's barely worthy of being called an RPG. Molyneux talked that one up to heaven and back as well, so I'm not touching the thing till someone I know buys a copy first.j-e-f-f-e-r-s post=9.68481.631139 said:
To make RPGs better you simply need to look at Fallout, Torment and Bloodlines and figure out what it was that made them the best RPGs ever made.
A strong, novel quality story with characters that feel like real people and the highest quality of voice acting to match. Freedom to accomplish your goals in nearly any manner you see fit, even if some of the tasks are required. This means alternate quest paths, which Bethesda seems to be allergic to. Viable paths through the game that result in minimal or no combat. Giving the social, stealth and knowledge paradigms as much weight as combat skill. Shades of grey morality. Strange new worlds and civilizations.
And above all else, Choices that have very real, serious, and sometimes unintended consequences.
Come to think of it, Deus Ex fits all of these except for the voice acting, doesn't it?
To ReepNeep. they actually made peter Molyneaux stay quiet until they already put the stuff into the game because he over hyped the last one and they didn't want to go through that again.
He's only been allowed to reveal details rather recently.
He's only been allowed to reveal details rather recently.
Yeh but i heard that it goes over board on length, 50+ hours is good but some people don't have that conviction/don't care enough to bother.TheKbob post=9.68481.631256 said:
I got halfway through The Witcher before hearing about the enhanced edition. I decided to wait until it came out so I could start over. The characters are well developed, the world is interesting and unconvetnional, and the questwriting is fantastic.
Its a very good one from an RP point of view, but I was kind of turned off by the simplistic combat mechanics.
Its a very good one from an RP point of view, but I was kind of turned off by the simplistic combat mechanics.
You beat me to the point with one post.ReepNeep post=9.68481.631242 said:
Aye, here it is... consequences. The big problem with RPG's today is that it is very hard to get immersed in anything when nothing you do can have any bigger consequence than a moment of annoyance as you run from the spawn point to try to kill your enemy again. You're never in danger of actually losing anything... just getting slightly delayed on the way to your goal.
Now I agree that having a game where you can have serious setbacks or even lose your beloved character is difficult to pull off as it is almost guaranteed to piss the players off something fierce and thus make them hate the game. Playing this card is like going for the lot in Hearts/Black Lady: if you're going to do it, you have to get everything right, or you're screwed while everyone else laughs at you.
But yes... consequences... that's what I dearly want in an RPG game.
The second thing I want in an RPG is persistence outside the character. If I drop a thing on the ground, it shall stay there... forever, or until someone picks it up. Burn down a house and it shall remain burned down. Kill the mayor and a new one that is different from the old one will be appointed. And conversely: build a house in a place and I shall be able to move into it when it's done. Persistence and consequences... what I do leaves a lasting impression.
/S
Well, first one has to look at the really good games. For me, Baldurs Gate II shines as the best RPG ever made, but thats ofcourse just my observation. If I am to enjoy an RPG, it needs a great story which is masterfuly told, it needs villains you can believe, ie: not cackling, skullmask wearing necromancers, but villains with motivations you can understand, and also a faint glimmer of "good" so they can be precieved as 'human' aswell. If you from some twisted point of view can understand the villain, then you ahve made a good villain.
Second, you need good companions with depth to their character, believable motivations and fears etc. Baldurs Gate I & II did that very well. Quests for your companions is also very nice, aslong as they are not overdone, and take the focus away from the main story.
Third, i want dilemmas. This is where i enjoyed the Witcher; the choices you had to make, and didnt get to see the result of the choices before much later. It adds alot of excitement to the gameplay when you cannot allways predict the consequences of your actions
Fourth; a somewhat original story. The Evil which has been released and must once again be sealed for the tenth or so time is only fun for so many games. How about making a game when there is no moral at the end? And with, as others have pointed out, more than just a good or evil ending. And what of your companions? What of the world? If you play as a mercenarie, perhaps you wont give a damn about that town you encountered way back in the game, but saves another. Or where you have to choose who gets to live and who must die? Or play a thief. Or make an assassin RPG where you dont have to be a nice or totally badass assassin, but things in between aswell. And for the love of God, a game where you -dont- have to save the whole world? How about just a city? Or just your own guild in the city?
Fifth; Put some clothes on those female NPC's. Please. If i want to see hot, lightly dressed women i can do so in real Life, i dont need an RPG for that.
Thats my cents anyway
Second, you need good companions with depth to their character, believable motivations and fears etc. Baldurs Gate I & II did that very well. Quests for your companions is also very nice, aslong as they are not overdone, and take the focus away from the main story.
Third, i want dilemmas. This is where i enjoyed the Witcher; the choices you had to make, and didnt get to see the result of the choices before much later. It adds alot of excitement to the gameplay when you cannot allways predict the consequences of your actions
Fourth; a somewhat original story. The Evil which has been released and must once again be sealed for the tenth or so time is only fun for so many games. How about making a game when there is no moral at the end? And with, as others have pointed out, more than just a good or evil ending. And what of your companions? What of the world? If you play as a mercenarie, perhaps you wont give a damn about that town you encountered way back in the game, but saves another. Or where you have to choose who gets to live and who must die? Or play a thief. Or make an assassin RPG where you dont have to be a nice or totally badass assassin, but things in between aswell. And for the love of God, a game where you -dont- have to save the whole world? How about just a city? Or just your own guild in the city?
Fifth; Put some clothes on those female NPC's. Please. If i want to see hot, lightly dressed women i can do so in real Life, i dont need an RPG for that.
Thats my cents anyway
Out of curiosity, have you ever played Torment? It fits #4 almost perfectly and you seem to enjoy Infinity engine games and at least be able to stomach D&D 2nd rules. Not to give out too much, but the Quest is to save yourself. Torment specifically went out if it's way to break convention and it's my favorite RPG because of it. Its also very dialog heavy which I really enjoy in such games.Qualin post=9.68481.631286 said:
The Chainmail Bikini bothers me too. If she wants some armor to wear to the beach, maybe. That shit shouldn't fly in the Spine of the World.
No, I have never played Torment. I stopped buying new RPG games after the disaster of Neverwinter Nights 2, though Im sure Torment is much older than that. Point was that i havent looked for new (or old) RPG's lately 
Becoming picky I guess.
And yeah, i think the Infinity engine has so far been superior to any other when it comes to singleplayer games. I still start a new BG II game once in a while after having downloaded new mods from Pocket Plane. I didnt mind the 2nd rules either, sorta gave a more 'advanced' feeling to whole thing, pluss it didnt ruin the fun like being able to calculate everything in neverwinter nights.
For what things to avoid in new RPG's, I will offer theese two lists:
Game cliches:
http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html
general evil cliches:
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
Becoming picky I guess.And yeah, i think the Infinity engine has so far been superior to any other when it comes to singleplayer games. I still start a new BG II game once in a while after having downloaded new mods from Pocket Plane. I didnt mind the 2nd rules either, sorta gave a more 'advanced' feeling to whole thing, pluss it didnt ruin the fun like being able to calculate everything in neverwinter nights.
For what things to avoid in new RPG's, I will offer theese two lists:
Game cliches:
http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html
general evil cliches:
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
Give me any other game that gives you as many choices as Elder Scrolls. Until then, I dub Elder Scrolls one of the better (not best) RPGs.
I liked Fable's combat system, and overall the story was stellar. (Especially the part where you went to jail, loved that) but where it failed, in my belief, was character depth and the consequences department. Yes, guards chased you after you get so evil, but by that point you can easily slaughter them with your Sword of Aeons, or some such.
I'd honestly half to say that Drakengard was the best RPG, even if it really wasn't designed that way. Awesome story, pretty characters, bunch of choices (though I don't think there were a whole lot of consequences...), and radical combat (of course who DOESNT want to fly on a dragon and incinerate EVERYONE?). Yes, the character saves the world, but really each storyline ended up with me feeling emotionally saddened, or saying 'WTF!?!?' and furiously trying to kill whatever hell spawn opposed me. There's even one where you die, I believe.
Really, you guys are just repeating yourselves now. Burning down houses would be awesome though. Arson FTW.
I liked Fable's combat system, and overall the story was stellar. (Especially the part where you went to jail, loved that) but where it failed, in my belief, was character depth and the consequences department. Yes, guards chased you after you get so evil, but by that point you can easily slaughter them with your Sword of Aeons, or some such.
I'd honestly half to say that Drakengard was the best RPG, even if it really wasn't designed that way. Awesome story, pretty characters, bunch of choices (though I don't think there were a whole lot of consequences...), and radical combat (of course who DOESNT want to fly on a dragon and incinerate EVERYONE?). Yes, the character saves the world, but really each storyline ended up with me feeling emotionally saddened, or saying 'WTF!?!?' and furiously trying to kill whatever hell spawn opposed me. There's even one where you die, I believe.
Really, you guys are just repeating yourselves now. Burning down houses would be awesome though. Arson FTW.
In all seriousness I think it's prime time we stopped all this levelling up nonesense.
Fighting should be more involving, as others have pointed out, and perhaps more tactical. Even tactical RPGs tend to be quite dumb these days.
Perhaps a good choice for those who want a more story/ talking heads orientated RPG and for those wanting more action, fighting based ala Planescape Torment.
Less RPGs. There's just too many of them. Ironically, I have more loathing for the big RPG manufacterers ie Square-Enix and Bioware than the smaller developers who usually try to incorporate something fresh and new.
Fighting should be more involving, as others have pointed out, and perhaps more tactical. Even tactical RPGs tend to be quite dumb these days.
Perhaps a good choice for those who want a more story/ talking heads orientated RPG and for those wanting more action, fighting based ala Planescape Torment.
Less RPGs. There's just too many of them. Ironically, I have more loathing for the big RPG manufacterers ie Square-Enix and Bioware than the smaller developers who usually try to incorporate something fresh and new.
First off, NO MORE FUCKING CLICHED CHARACTERS.
Anyways KOTOR in my opinion did everything that it could at its time. The characters were fucking awesome. If you don't think so just get back to space marines 9000 and leave the smart people alone. The main character was pure genius, Plus he didn't talk which was good.(Call if archaic if you like but then I don't want some guy doing both bad, good and neutral choices because then it just sounds the same but with different words.) The plot twists were great overall the game was bottled awesome and it makes me wonder why the hell are bioware messing with a system thats been proven to work.
Anyways KOTOR in my opinion did everything that it could at its time. The characters were fucking awesome. If you don't think so just get back to space marines 9000 and leave the smart people alone. The main character was pure genius, Plus he didn't talk which was good.(Call if archaic if you like but then I don't want some guy doing both bad, good and neutral choices because then it just sounds the same but with different words.) The plot twists were great overall the game was bottled awesome and it makes me wonder why the hell are bioware messing with a system thats been proven to work.