How would you reboot the Star Wars Prequel trilogy?

[ccggenius12]

It's my understanding that there's a fan re-cut made by, of all people, Topher Grace, that trims the Prequels down to one film, and it results in a leaner, more satisfying experience. I don't know as though there's anything that needs to be re-written, but the strength of the original trilogy lay just as much in what WASN'T explained as what was, and I'd very much like to see how the story plays out when it's like... 4+ hours shorter. Quite frankly, I don't see why an origin story would need to be 3 movies anyhow.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Yeah I gotta echo that the main problem with last Jedi is that it tried to do Empire Strikes back AND Return of the Jedi at the same time (And the gambling planet sub-plot goes nowhere and barely has anything to say). And both Poe and Holdo are idiots. Also, it was kind of paradoxical in that it kept copying everything but also ripped things up at the last second. Luke goes into scary dark cave and has a dark vision of Darth Vader. Rey goes into a cave and finds...nothing.

Hey, more power to you if you want to rip up established trends. The thing is, there's a general rule for media. For everything you take out, you have to put something else in to replace it. Last Jedi took a lot of stuff out and replaced it with...nothing. Apart from a few things that tried to make the universe come off as complex but was more eye rolling. Someone was selling weapons to both the First Order AND the pathetically undermanned Resistance? Yeah, I'm sure the twenty or so fighters sold would be worth the First Order blowing a hole in his head when they inevitably found out.

But I gotta say, Last Jedi is a bad movie, but it's not any worse than the prequels.

Gotta disagree. The Prequels are light years better than the last Jedi (see what I did there?).

The Prequels had the inevitable task of creating a bland and peaceful existence in a galaxy specifically designed for the average movie goer's wish fulfillment. You know, a Galaxy of the man against us. But my ragtag team of misfits and hot women in Gold Bikinis will ride in our sweet rides and show them what for!

The Prequels had to show the reality of peace time. It's dull. The Galactic Senate, while having no real power over the Jedi, asked them to help with diplomatic relations and peace keeping. But all Jedi weren't just going off and slicing fools left and right.

Hell, a good part of the Jedi Order was the the service order. With the Agricultural Corps [https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Agricultural_Corps/Legends] being the largest of that number. That was seconded by the Exploration Corps [https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Exploration_Corps].

The Prequels had to establish what was lost. I feel they did that. It wasn't as exciting as flying your ship to blow up a moon sized battle station. But it was the preamble to see what the Empire truly did for the Galaxy. While the Prequels aren't my favorite, I can appreciate them for setting up how truly bad the Empire made things.

The Last Jedi... just... Oh God, it was bad. It was bad all over. Wasted potential, Dumb decisions... I still don't understand why in a fleet of how many ships, not one of them decided to do what Holdo did. They were all faced with the same situation, and supposedly had the same training. Why did it only occur to Holdo?

Finn just became more of the butt monkey. Like, as much as I like Finn, I honest to God have no idea what he actually brings to the story. His First Order training never seems to come into real use. He's not an exceptional fighter. He fails in almost everything he does.

But so does the cast. Poe's only purpose in the movie was to be told "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about". And he doesn't. His first action in the movie really screws over a lot of people... and it was meaningless!

Rose is there to... set up a Love Triangle between Rey, herself, and Finn, I guess? But Finn doesn't even really seem to be into her. He just cares for her as he does all his allies. And Rey is affected by that for some reason? There was never a hint of romance between them before. Even attraction. Just a mutual happiness that they both got each other out of bad situations a movie ago.

She will always be my Princess will Always Be My Princess.

Kylo Ren comes onto the screen and all I can ever think of this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMj_nuqlik]. He's like if a Spencer's Gifts and a Hot Topic got together and had a human baby. I can never take him seriously when I used to go to High School with dozens of guys like him.

Snoke was... a waste.

But the creme de la creme. The absolute insult to all of Star Wars Fiction is how they did Luke. From the bravest Jedi there was to "Oops, made a mistake. Everything is a lie even though everything is my fault. Better not try to fix a thing".

I hate the Last Jedi for how they made everything useless and the only quality that the resistance constantly show is failure. The Prequels are just a tad boring and have really bad pacing. But each movie has some high points. Darth Maul and his reveal, How Obi Wan had to mature and face his weaknesses in an instant, Mace Windu, Yoda, Dooku, Grievous.

The most you have is Holdo's maneuver. But it's such a simple one that it's robbed from any real importance since any other ships could have done it at any time. So something that should have been cool makes me even angrier because I was literally yelling to all the other ships that they should have done it before.

The Last Jedi does far, far worse than anything that comes before it. It literally takes Kylo Ren and Rey and say "These are the only people that matter". The Last Jedi pulls a Dragon Ball Z with Kylo Ren as Vegita and Rey as Goku. Finn is useless, Poe is useless, Rose is useless, Luke is now a whiny little brat. All agency has been stripped from our ragtag group and placed solely on Rey's shoulders. That's something the old movies never did.

Hell, Lando did what he did for his city. Because Vader would have destroyed it all. He made a choice that he regretted and tried to enforce with one of the literally most powerful men in the Galaxy. And he did everything he could to protect his friends and his companions. And once Vader betrayed him, he got his people out of Cloud City and then turned to help the Rebels. He did something. I can't think of anything worthwhile the Rebels did in the Last Jedi.

That movie turned them from Underdogs that will get the job done to Sad sacks that you just wish would go away.

... I dislike the Movie, is what I'm saying.

Sidebar, I would kill for a Star Wars-Esque Show or Series of the Exploration Corps. Washed out Jedi who explore space and make contact with other cultures? It would print money. New Dangers, New Powers, a rotating cast. It would be amazing.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Luke goes into scary dark cave and has a dark vision of Darth Vader. Rey goes into a cave and finds...nothing.

This isn't really ripping it up, it is actually an exact mirror of Luke's vision. Luke's greatest fear is that he'll become like Darth Vader, hence the vision of Luke's face in Vader's mask after Luke defeats the Vader specter. Rey's greatest fear is that she's all alone and that her parents weren't special people who had to abandon her, so she sees nothing but herself in her vision.

It works pretty well as a callback to ESB and it firmly solidifies Rey's arc as being not primarily about learning to be a Jedi but coming to terms with the fact that she can be special even if her parents were deadbeats and overcoming her fear of loneliness. This fear of loneliness is also a major part of her arc as it relates to saving Finn, being tutored by Luke (and making him a surrogate dad) and her stubborn belief in Kylo Ren's good sides, because she desperately wants to feel a connection to someone, anyone.

There are quite a few weak parts in TLJ, but Rey's vision is not one of them. In fact, I'll argue the opposite, it is one of the strongest, most character focused scenes in a movie that's generally about flawed characters and the consequences their flaws has.

 

[Hades]

for their blatantly hamfisted SJW messages and disrespect to the original universe

Dude, no. Please, stop whinging about ess-jay-dub-yoos. The disney movies are fine, especially Rogue One. They're certainly not "disrespectful".

And, other than bikini Leia, Star Wars was pretty SJW.

I have no idea what people are talking about when they say disrespect. Sure, the new movies aren't to your liking. That doesn't mean they're disrespecting. The problem with Luke in the Last Jedi is that he's copying Yoda and Obi Wan. Make a mistake? Fuck the universe then I'm going hobo. At least Luke ended up helping at the end. Obi Wan tripped a switch but then brought Vader to the good guys. Yoda just sat on his ass.

I don't think its quite the same. Luke became really depressed and bitter after his mistake and apparently fled before the First Order became dominant. Obi Wan and Yoda fled when they had already lost and had clear goals in mind for doing so. Obi Wan would watch over baby Luke while in the book version Yoda experienced a vision when fighting Palpathine which showed him training a new hero. They were biding their time rather than just abandoning everyone.

I've never been part of the ''Disney disrespect Star Wars!'' brigade but I do realize where they are coming from. The main hero of the series abandoned everyone, the marriage of the other two didn't work out and the world they created is overthrown by the remnants of the organisation they the Galaxy from before . I guess its easy to imagine the first movies didn't matter if everything that happened got undone a few decades later.

 

[twistedmic]

But the creme de la creme. The absolute insult to all of Star Wars Fiction is how they did Luke. From the bravest Jedi there was to "Oops, made a mistake. Everything is a lie even though everything is my fault. Better not try to fix a thing".

I think you're minimizing the scope of Luke's mistake here. It's not like he forgot to tape The Price is Right or burned his frozen pizza here. His mistake led to several of his students fully turning to the dark side, his nephew chief among them, the rest of his students getting murdered and his temple burned to the ground and led to an unknown number of deaths once his nephew joined up with Snoke.
And all of this happened when he tried to 'fix' the galaxy by bringing back the Jedi Order.

 

[EvilRoy]

The thread kind of took a walk there, but I think as far as the original question goes I would try to frame the story more as a "rise and fall of Caesar" type of situation.

Rather than have Anakin act as a semi-gifted douche, make him into an adept jedi and politician, pressing for uncomfortable changes and gaining significant power both as a jedi-in-training and politician over the course of the movies. His political aspirations would be indicated to be due to his being raised as a slave giving him a desire to bring justice to the galaxy. They would be barely tolerated by the jedi council, due only to the fact that his aptitude and mission-success rate made him hard to punish. In the course of his political work he would meet and fall in love with the princess, and begin to consider both the future emperor (can't remember his name) and Obi-Wan as friends and mentors. I would want to take pains at this stage to reinforce the fact that Anakin is really good at being a jedi, and is becoming beloved by common people for his political actions - both these things would need to be leveraged for whispered-argument fodder between Obi and Anakin, as a method to communicate how much this is all pissing off the council, and how worried certain senators are getting about being replaced by a jedi.

By movie 2 (also, sorry, no child-anakin at all, do a time skip after saving him to at least late teens) start dropping hints of the internal issues with the council, the senate, and start positioning people from both groups against Anakin who feel he is overstepping his jedi bounds. Here we transition from whispered-argument to certain council/senate members outright telling Anakin to check his shit. Really grind in the injustice of it all too - make it clear that Anakin has been busting his ass to do more large scale good than either of the groups in recent memory, and now some wankers with poorly enacted ideals and asses only good for sitting on are trashing his work. At this stage the emperor needs to be doubling down on the "we're bros" angle, while simultaneously working to ensure more and more of the jedi appear to be turning on Anakin.

Then in the third movie combine a double wammy of Anakin trying to seek out his mother and becoming emotionally compromised in the face of the tragedy, with the jedi being fooled into taking action against Anakin because of a frame job. Instead of taking a dagger up the strap, Anakin survives - but is certain the jedi are making a power play to secure complete control over the senate. Shit gets heated all around, cue the major Obi-Wan Vs Anakin fight while the emperor uses the attack on Anakin as reason for the senate to "per-emptively defend themselves" from the jedi council. Anakin Vs Obi ends in a stalemate with both running to defend their interests from the other groups soldiers. Have the princess be critically injured trying to keep the peace in a firefight between senate forces and the jedi, Obi-Wan saves the kids but the princess dies in the process, Anakin loses what little he has left when he finds out she's gone and Obi took the kids, and then falls into the arms of the emperor.

With the jedi council appearing to have thrown down on the galactic governing group the Emperor secures and consolidates his power and individual planets start lashing out against jedi groups, blaming them for the sudden chaos interrupting galactic peace. The council dissolves, with the last remaining force users going into hiding while Anakin gets his Vader makeover. I dunno why he would need the makeover without the stupid high ground fell into lava shit. Maybe during a fight something happens that critically fucks up his lungs and the suit is basically a mobile iron lung keeping him breathing while he uses the force for everything else.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I think you're minimizing the scope of Luke's mistake here. It's not like he forgot to tape The Price is Right or burned his frozen pizza here. His mistake led to several of his students fully turning to the dark side, his nephew chief among them, the rest of his students getting murdered and his temple burned to the ground and led to an unknown number of deaths once his nephew joined up with Snoke.
And all of this happened when he tried to 'fix' the galaxy by bringing back the Jedi Order.

I was trying to avoid spoilers, but if we're going all out on it...

Spoiler

So, we know Snoke has been manipulating Ben and Luke from the beginning. While Ben had a spark of the Dark Side in him, Snoke fanned the flames in a way that Luke didn't see. I'm not quite sure if Leia knew. I know for sure she didn't know it was directly Snoke. But she knew something outside of him was bringing out his Dark Side.

I'm not minimizing what Luke did. I was just downstating it because I didn't want to spoil what happened. His mistake was not sensing Snoke's influence. His mistake was not doing what needed to be done. Luke got an Ouchie Boo-Boo on his pride and then promptly abandoned the Force and the Jedi teachings as somehow they failed him. Not true. It was his ego that failed. As he states, his confidence of being the person who brought down the Galactic empire.

That part is stated. This last part is my belief that Snoke used Luke's sadness of Ben's connection with the Dark Side as a way to get into his mind and show Luke a vision that would frighten him to his very core: That another Darth Vader would rise, more terrible than his father, and it would have been Luke's doing.

It was what they all feared. Luke spat out the line about "Mighty Skywalker Blood [https://youtu.be/yepMuMoAKpA?t=34]" with utter disdain. Again, this part is all conjecture, but it feels obvious that Snoke radiated that darkness out of Ben's heart that night to bring Luke in. And then woke Ben to see what happened while he slept. We don't know what Snoke whispered in Ben's ears had he trained. Most likely that Luke was jealous of Ben's power. But at that moment, I believe Ben's worst fears were realized as well.

Luke's mistake was not fixing it. He trusted in the force he barely knew, a father he barely knew, and he won the day from it. Even though Darth Vader put out as much dark side as Ben did. Luke knew Ben from a child, studied ancient tomes long lost from the Jedi, devoted the rest of his life to understanding and restoring the order like he promised his Master. And the second it became tough... he ran like a little *****, closed himself off from everyone and his failure with Ben, and whined how the Jedi teachings must be false because hefailed.

In short, they totally ruined his character. Mark Hamill says it himself [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0biqMZrxJ0]. I can't help but to agree.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

I mean going back to change and edit things is one of the most frequent criticisms levied against George Lucas, so I'd think trying to retcon the entire Prequel Trilogy would be a bit hypocritical. That being said! I think what I'd like to see more of is the Jedi Council being shown in the wrong more. That the Jedi are not in fact the good guys. It gets touched upon more in the Clone Wars series, but the effect being generals and soldiers is having on a supposedly peaceful order is not a good one, that it may be a corrupting influence. I mean, by Revenge of the Sith Mace Windu is willing to stage what is essentially a coup, imprisoning the legitimately elected leader of the Republic and putting his own faction in power. Having the Jedi slide more deliberately into shades of grey rather than be the shiny white paladins means Anakin's reasons for turning against are more than just "I am a whiny teen believing what this incredibly sinister old man tells me"

 

[Something Amyss]

It's not like he forgot to tape The Price is Right or burned his frozen pizza here.

But let's be honest: if he burned his pizza., he totally would have quit over it.

 

[Trunkage]

I think you're minimizing the scope of Luke's mistake here. It's not like he forgot to tape The Price is Right or burned his frozen pizza here. His mistake led to several of his students fully turning to the dark side, his nephew chief among them, the rest of his students getting murdered and his temple burned to the ground and led to an unknown number of deaths once his nephew joined up with Snoke.
And all of this happened when he tried to 'fix' the galaxy by bringing back the Jedi Order.

I was trying to avoid spoilers, but if we're going all out on it...

Spoiler

So, we know Snoke has been manipulating Ben and Luke from the beginning. While Ben had a spark of the Dark Side in him, Snoke fanned the flames in a way that Luke didn't see. I'm not quite sure if Leia knew. I know for sure she didn't know it was directly Snoke. But she knew something outside of him was bringing out his Dark Side.

I'm not minimizing what Luke did. I was just downstating it because I didn't want to spoil what happened. His mistake was not sensing Snoke's influence. His mistake was not doing what needed to be done. Luke got an Ouchie Boo-Boo on his pride and then promptly abandoned the Force and the Jedi teachings as somehow they failed him. Not true. It was his ego that failed. As he states, his confidence of being the person who brought down the Galactic empire.

That part is stated. This last part is my belief that Snoke used Luke's sadness of Ben's connection with the Dark Side as a way to get into his mind and show Luke a vision that would frighten him to his very core: That another Darth Vader would rise, more terrible than his father, and it would have been Luke's doing.

It was what they all feared. Luke spat out the line about "Mighty Skywalker Blood [https://youtu.be/yepMuMoAKpA?t=34]" with utter disdain. Again, this part is all conjecture, but it feels obvious that Snoke radiated that darkness out of Ben's heart that night to bring Luke in. And then woke Ben to see what happened while he slept. We don't know what Snoke whispered in Ben's ears had he trained. Most likely that Luke was jealous of Ben's power. But at that moment, I believe Ben's worst fears were realized as well.

Luke's mistake was not fixing it. He trusted in the force he barely knew, a father he barely knew, and he won the day from it. Even though Darth Vader put out as much dark side as Ben did. Luke knew Ben from a child, studied ancient tomes long lost from the Jedi, devoted the rest of his life to understanding and restoring the order like he promised his Master. And the second it became tough... he ran like a little *****, closed himself off from everyone and his failure with Ben, and whined how the Jedi teachings must be false because hefailed.

In short, they totally ruined his character. Mark Hamill says it himself [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0biqMZrxJ0]. I can't help but to agree.

You keep saying Luke should fix it. But his mentors never did. They sent Luke to do their job for them. I mean they could have helped but no. Let's Force Ghost outta here. That's going to defeat 2 Siths.

Let me be clear. I agree with your assessment of Luke. Luke was just copying what Jedis do. Their weak, unhelpful, arrogant and dont mind letting others commit genocide. It's the Jedi way

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I was trying to avoid spoilers, but if we're going all out on it...

Spoiler

So, we know Snoke has been manipulating Ben and Luke from the beginning. While Ben had a spark of the Dark Side in him, Snoke fanned the flames in a way that Luke didn't see. I'm not quite sure if Leia knew. I know for sure she didn't know it was directly Snoke. But she knew something outside of him was bringing out his Dark Side.

I'm not minimizing what Luke did. I was just downstating it because I didn't want to spoil what happened. His mistake was not sensing Snoke's influence. His mistake was not doing what needed to be done. Luke got an Ouchie Boo-Boo on his pride and then promptly abandoned the Force and the Jedi teachings as somehow they failed him. Not true. It was his ego that failed. As he states, his confidence of being the person who brought down the Galactic empire.

That part is stated. This last part is my belief that Snoke used Luke's sadness of Ben's connection with the Dark Side as a way to get into his mind and show Luke a vision that would frighten him to his very core: That another Darth Vader would rise, more terrible than his father, and it would have been Luke's doing.

It was what they all feared. Luke spat out the line about "Mighty Skywalker Blood [https://youtu.be/yepMuMoAKpA?t=34]" with utter disdain. Again, this part is all conjecture, but it feels obvious that Snoke radiated that darkness out of Ben's heart that night to bring Luke in. And then woke Ben to see what happened while he slept. We don't know what Snoke whispered in Ben's ears had he trained. Most likely that Luke was jealous of Ben's power. But at that moment, I believe Ben's worst fears were realized as well.

Luke's mistake was not fixing it. He trusted in the force he barely knew, a father he barely knew, and he won the day from it. Even though Darth Vader put out as much dark side as Ben did. Luke knew Ben from a child, studied ancient tomes long lost from the Jedi, devoted the rest of his life to understanding and restoring the order like he promised his Master. And the second it became tough... he ran like a little *****, closed himself off from everyone and his failure with Ben, and whined how the Jedi teachings must be false because hefailed.

In short, they totally ruined his character. Mark Hamill says it himself [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0biqMZrxJ0]. I can't help but to agree.

So bear with me here: One of the main themes of The Last Jedi is arguably the cost and consequences of hubris. Pretty much every major character in the movie (barring Finn and Rose, who both have the opposite arc of finding themselves greater than they think) exhibit it to some degree and their arcs are largely defined by how they deal with their own hubris. Rey desperately wants to be the child of great people and wants to be a great hero, which causes her to rush off to redeem Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren murders Snoke in an act of petty defiance and takes over as Supreme Leader not because he had a plan, but because he didn't like Snoke gloating at him. Later Kylo allows the Resistance to escape certain death because he absolutely insists that he be allowed to duel Luke. Poe Dameron is so certain his way is the best that he gets the Resistance fleet wiped out and then nearly gets the entire Resistance destroyed. Holdo is so certain of her right due to chain of command that she doesn't even bother assuring her hotshot pilot commander that she has a plan, which makes him lash out with a stupid plan. Hux manages to get both the massive First Order ship in the opening destroyed and later allows Finn and Rose to escape certain death because he wants to drag out and savor his moments of victory instead of just winning. Phasma shares Hux's problem here.

In this context, Luke is another character who deals with his hubris. It was his certainty of his own greatness, as the guy who defeated the Emperor, that makes him unable to see Snoke's influence and it causes the destruction of his New Jedi Order and the deaths or falls of all his apprentices. Considering that Luke was the guy who spent most of his Jedi training in ANH and ESB complaining about how things couldn't be done and sulking at the challenge, it doesn't seem that far out of character to me for him to fall victim to the galaxy's most epic bout of self-pity when he inadvertently destroys his entire life's work.

 

[Hawki]

So I stayed out of this thread until now, simply because I wouldn't reboot the prequel trilogy for various reasons. However, seeing that the subject's turned to Luke, I'll give my 2 cents.

I actually like the idea of Luke in TLJ, because it's ultimately a take on the weight of living up to one's legend, yet also emphasising the need of legends and the effect they can have on people.

We expect Luke to be perfect. That after defeating Vader, he was at the end of his journey. It's fitting that he goes on to train new Jedi. But with Ben, as the three flashbacks in TLJ show, all it takes is one moment of failure. Luke, being falliable, considers killing Ben. Only for a moment, before he draws back in shame. Unfortunately, it's this one moment of weakness, the one moment where he was less than perfect, is what triggers Ben to turn on him, and in turn, come to serve Snoke.

So, burdened by his shame, Luke becomes a recluse. I can understand why some people are put off with this, and if Luke had stayed on Ach-To throughout the movie and did nothing, I might have joined them. Still, he comes back at the end, sacrificing his own life to do so. He asks Rey what she wanted from him - did she expect him to just stride out and confront the First Order? The entire point of the AT-AT scene is showing why that wouldn't work, why you can achieve victory without direct confrontation (sounds very Jedi doesn't it). Luke is burdened by the weight of his own legend. However, the point of his arc is to accept that while he is mortal, normal people need legends. Legends can inspire them to greatness - the entire point of the final scene in the film is to emphasize this.

Least that's my take.

So bear with me here: One of the main themes of The Last Jedi is arguably the cost and consequences of hubris.

I pretty much agree. Though if I'm nitpicking, I'd say that if I had to sum up the theme of TLJ in one word, it would be "failure." Not that the film failed (though plenty would disagree), but the theme of failure, and how we learn from it, is interwoven into the story. Rey, Luke, Poe, and to an extent Finn all embody this. Ultimately, TLJ is a film where the protagonists pretty much fail at everything they set out to do, and it's only through Luke accepting the necessity of being the Jedi people expect him to be that disaster's averted.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Though if I'm nitpicking, I'd say that if I had to sum up the theme of TLJ in one word, it would be "failure."

Oh, for sure. Failure is definitely the main theme from which all others derive.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I was trying to avoid spoilers, but if we're going all out on it...

Spoiler

So, we know Snoke has been manipulating Ben and Luke from the beginning. While Ben had a spark of the Dark Side in him, Snoke fanned the flames in a way that Luke didn't see. I'm not quite sure if Leia knew. I know for sure she didn't know it was directly Snoke. But she knew something outside of him was bringing out his Dark Side.

I'm not minimizing what Luke did. I was just downstating it because I didn't want to spoil what happened. His mistake was not sensing Snoke's influence. His mistake was not doing what needed to be done. Luke got an Ouchie Boo-Boo on his pride and then promptly abandoned the Force and the Jedi teachings as somehow they failed him. Not true. It was his ego that failed. As he states, his confidence of being the person who brought down the Galactic empire.

That part is stated. This last part is my belief that Snoke used Luke's sadness of Ben's connection with the Dark Side as a way to get into his mind and show Luke a vision that would frighten him to his very core: That another Darth Vader would rise, more terrible than his father, and it would have been Luke's doing.

It was what they all feared. Luke spat out the line about "Mighty Skywalker Blood [https://youtu.be/yepMuMoAKpA?t=34]" with utter disdain. Again, this part is all conjecture, but it feels obvious that Snoke radiated that darkness out of Ben's heart that night to bring Luke in. And then woke Ben to see what happened while he slept. We don't know what Snoke whispered in Ben's ears had he trained. Most likely that Luke was jealous of Ben's power. But at that moment, I believe Ben's worst fears were realized as well.

Luke's mistake was not fixing it. He trusted in the force he barely knew, a father he barely knew, and he won the day from it. Even though Darth Vader put out as much dark side as Ben did. Luke knew Ben from a child, studied ancient tomes long lost from the Jedi, devoted the rest of his life to understanding and restoring the order like he promised his Master. And the second it became tough... he ran like a little *****, closed himself off from everyone and his failure with Ben, and whined how the Jedi teachings must be false because hefailed.

In short, they totally ruined his character. Mark Hamill says it himself [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0biqMZrxJ0]. I can't help but to agree.

So bear with me here: One of the main themes of The Last Jedi is arguably the cost and consequences of hubris. Pretty much every major character in the movie (barring Finn and Rose, who both have the opposite arc of finding themselves greater than they think) exhibit it to some degree and their arcs are largely defined by how they deal with their own hubris. Rey desperately wants to be the child of great people and wants to be a great hero, which causes her to rush off to redeem Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren murders Snoke in an act of petty defiance and takes over as Supreme Leader not because he had a plan, but because he didn't like Snoke gloating at him. Later Kylo allows the Resistance to escape certain death because he absolutely insists that he be allowed to duel Luke. Poe Dameron is so certain his way is the best that he gets the Resistance fleet wiped out and then nearly gets the entire Resistance destroyed. Holdo is so certain of her right due to chain of command that she doesn't even bother assuring her hotshot pilot commander that she has a plan, which makes him lash out with a stupid plan. Hux manages to get both the massive First Order ship in the opening destroyed and later allows Finn and Rose to escape certain death because he wants to drag out and savor his moments of victory instead of just winning. Phasma shares Hux's problem here.

In this context, Luke is another character who deals with his hubris. It was his certainty of his own greatness, as the guy who defeated the Emperor, that makes him unable to see Snoke's influence and it causes the destruction of his New Jedi Order and the deaths or falls of all his apprentices. Considering that Luke was the guy who spent most of his Jedi training in ANH and ESB complaining about how things couldn't be done and sulking at the challenge, it doesn't seem that far out of character to me for him to fall victim to the galaxy's most epic bout of self-pity when he inadvertently destroys his entire life's work.

I understand a good deal about this. I've stated a lot of these facts at my post responding to Ertheking.

I mentioned the toll of Luke's ego getting bruised, but I also hate him doing nothing about it. When Luke learned about his father in the Empire Strikes Back, he didn't go "Drat, I couldn't defeat the big bad. Let's go back to obscurity now". He summoned up his courage, he did what he could to become stronger, and he proceeded in his mission to deal with his father.

Be it hubris or him feeling it was his duty to confront Vader, he did it. And as the Force would have it, he submitted his body to absolute torture in efforts to redeem his father.

That's what Luke was. In Empire Strikes Back, he became too Heady with his minor advancements in the Force and ran off to take on Vader without being anywhere near ready. He lost his hand. He lost one of his closest companions. He lost the battle to Vader. He failed harder than anything in his life up to that point. And he rested up, powered up, and went about getting everything back.

In this, he lost his Nephew and his students. He got some killed and Ben turned the others to the Dark Side. Where was the same bravery that made him get right back up when he was down? Vader toyed with Luke when they first met, and Luke went right back into Vader's face in Return of the Jedi. Ben succumbed to Snoke's will and went seriously rogue. And instead of facing the problem before it turned into another disruption in peace for the Galaxy... all the evil and hatred he saw that would come from Ben if he fell to the Dark Side... He gave up.

He tried to right nothing. He did nothing. He didn't submit his body or his spirit to Ben in efforts to bring him back to the light, as he did with his Father before him. He didn't rest up and try to find someone close to him like he did with

I'm postulating that Luke being burned by his own Hubris but never giving up is literally Luke's defining Character Trait. And that was ignored here. He didn't try to atone, he didn't reach beyond himself. He just flatly gave up in one of the most dire situations imaginable. A situation he knew that would led to the resurgence of another Empire, the deaths of millions and another Dark Lord of the Sith.

And look, I don't even mind the self-pity. In fact, I think he should have still had it. But I think it should have came about with him stopping Ben at any means necessary. I get the hubris in thinking his power and guidance could overcome anything. He was wrong. But I do not get the out of character betrayal of everything he stood for up to that point. By simply giving up before even trying.

 

[Abomination]

Simple, give it to the same writers as the 3D Clone Wars and let them remake all the films in the same style.

Of course, the stigma there is it's a "cartoon" and won't be perceived as true Star Wars. But then again it could be done for a fraction of the budget.

 

[Trunkage]

Can anyone explain to me why Clone Wars was good? All I saw was way too much Jar Jar, less character development over seasons than one see in a normal movie and just lame situations.

Is this something that gets good after two seasons because that's all I could stand.

Where is the writer from Rogue Squadron books or Zahn. Give it to them. Clone Wars was not good enough

 

[Squilookle]

I mentioned the toll of Luke's ego getting bruised, but I also hate him doing nothing about it. When Luke learned about his father in the Empire Strikes Back, he didn't go "Drat, I couldn't defeat the big bad. Let's go back to obscurity now". He summoned up his courage, he did what he could to become stronger, and he proceeded in his mission to deal with his father.

Be it hubris or him feeling it was his duty to confront Vader, he did it. And as the Force would have it, he submitted his body to absolute torture in efforts to redeem his father.

That's what Luke was. In Empire Strikes Back, he became too Heady with his minor advancements in the Force and ran off to take on Vader without being anywhere near ready. He lost his hand. He lost one of his closest companions. He lost the battle to Vader. He failed harder than anything in his life up to that point. And he rested up, powered up, and went about getting everything back.

In this, he lost his Nephew and his students. He got some killed and Ben turned the others to the Dark Side. Where was the same bravery that made him get right back up when he was down? Vader toyed with Luke when they first met, and Luke went right back into Vader's face in Return of the Jedi. Ben succumbed to Snoke's will and went seriously rogue. And instead of facing the problem before it turned into another disruption in peace for the Galaxy... all the evil and hatred he saw that would come from Ben if he fell to the Dark Side... He gave up.

He tried to right nothing. He did nothing. He didn't submit his body or his spirit to Ben in efforts to bring him back to the light, as he did with his Father before him.

Do we actually know for sure he immediately upped and quit in the face of that mutiny? Or is it possible he made an effort at the time, that failed? Besides, Luke's getting old- there are some reserves of courage and willpower you just lose as you get older. Leia kept hers- maybe Han and Luke just... got older?

 

[twistedmic]

Do we actually know for sure he immediately upped and quit in the face of that mutiny? Or is it possible he made an effort at the time, that failed? Besides, Luke's getting old- there are some reserves of courage and willpower you just lose as you get older. Leia kept hers- maybe Han and Luke just... got older?

I think that maybe Leia knew/sensed that there was still good in Ben, whereas Luke and Han didn't have that knowledge/faith. And that lack of faith essentially broke Han and Luke. It's also possible that Han and Luke felt more guilt at Ben's defection than Leia. Luke had a split second impulse to kill Ben and it was implied (if not outright stated) that Han and Ben had a somewhat tumultuous relationship. Han and Luke might have felt that they drove Ben to the dark side.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

Can anyone explain to me why Clone Wars was good? All I saw was way too much Jar Jar, less character development over seasons than one see in a normal movie and just lame situations.

Is this something that gets good after two seasons because that's all I could stand.

Where is the writer from Rogue Squadron books or Zahn. Give it to them. Clone Wars was not good enough

I'd say Clone Wars is quite hit and miss, but will say there's some things they do quite well. Their portrayal of Anakin is great and you can see his way of thinking going for "I am a Jedi, and the good guy, so I must do the right thing" to "I am a Jedi, and the good guy, so what I'm doing must be the right thing!" as he excuses or justifies a lot of his more...troubling behaviour to himself

 

[Kyrian007]

I wouldn't reboot them at all. They really shouldn't have been made in the first place. The way better solution to "we need more Star Wars stuff to sell" would have been to either continue the story (like Disney has done) or to set any prequels in a far more distant past (Old Republic Era.) And Disney did the continuation right by ignoring the expanded universe. There are some pretty good books and plotlines in the eu, but it also has some pretty sub-par efforts as well. As it all stands, better to just leave it all alone and continue on rather than reboot any of it.