I don't mind tax - it's necessary, though it does get a little ridiculous with how much they take. What annoys me though is how easily they manage to piss it all away and end up in a deficit. They look at the average taxpayer as a money pinata and they don't stop for one second to think "Whoa, look at our national debt. Maybe we should tone down the spending."
How you feel about taxes
- Thread starter RobDaBank
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Leaving aside the whole "let the risk fit the taxation" argument and side-stepping the economic arguments, consider the purpose of taxation.
To pay for things you don't want to be bothered with.
I really and truly do not want to be bothered with the state of roads, the condition of national forests, the communication between Canada and the dozens of other countries on the planet, the maintaining of the armed forces, the quality of imported goods, the smooth operation of the school system, the inner workings of the penal system, the policing of corporate entities, and a host of other headaches that local, county, provincial and national governments have to deal with every single day.
So, since money is much easier to come by and part with than bartered goods and other services, I kick in a chunk of my income in various ways to various governments to deal with the things I don't want to be bothered with. Will I pay in more than I'll get out? Most definitely. Do I care? Not especially, no, because if high taxes are my biggest concern, I figure I'm ahead of the game. Because I'm in a system that gives me worry-free choice, drinkable water, smoothly paved roads, and a complete lack of heavy ordinance filling the air.
To pay for things you don't want to be bothered with.
I really and truly do not want to be bothered with the state of roads, the condition of national forests, the communication between Canada and the dozens of other countries on the planet, the maintaining of the armed forces, the quality of imported goods, the smooth operation of the school system, the inner workings of the penal system, the policing of corporate entities, and a host of other headaches that local, county, provincial and national governments have to deal with every single day.
So, since money is much easier to come by and part with than bartered goods and other services, I kick in a chunk of my income in various ways to various governments to deal with the things I don't want to be bothered with. Will I pay in more than I'll get out? Most definitely. Do I care? Not especially, no, because if high taxes are my biggest concern, I figure I'm ahead of the game. Because I'm in a system that gives me worry-free choice, drinkable water, smoothly paved roads, and a complete lack of heavy ordinance filling the air.
Ugh, politics. I love talking about them, but with strangers it can be a bit of a smoking grenade.
Taxes are a necessary evil in my opinion. They allow me to sit in the comfort of my home and know that I can hop a government subsidized bus that drives on government paved roads to work. If I get sick I can go to a doctor and know my taxes paid for the trip. Taxes are the best way to ensure that everyone contributes to the grease that makes our modern society run.
But.
There is always a but.
There are always a few caveats to these things. In Canada where I live it is mandatory to pay into Employment Insurance. not quite a tax but pretty close. There is no opt out. If your job is lost by any way other than getting laid off it is nigh on impossible to get benefits. I was fired largely without cause in Dec of 2010. No benefits for me after I paid into the damn program for over 15 years. This is bullshit. The Feds have been raiding that program to fund general spending for about the same length of time. In other words they are fucking crooks. That money belongs to the workers and businesses that pay into it, not the government.
The fact that taxes are not something that can be opted out of is a main argument used by many who are against them but taxes themselves are not a bad thing. How they are spent frequently is.
Taxes are a necessary evil in my opinion. They allow me to sit in the comfort of my home and know that I can hop a government subsidized bus that drives on government paved roads to work. If I get sick I can go to a doctor and know my taxes paid for the trip. Taxes are the best way to ensure that everyone contributes to the grease that makes our modern society run.
But.
There is always a but.
There are always a few caveats to these things. In Canada where I live it is mandatory to pay into Employment Insurance. not quite a tax but pretty close. There is no opt out. If your job is lost by any way other than getting laid off it is nigh on impossible to get benefits. I was fired largely without cause in Dec of 2010. No benefits for me after I paid into the damn program for over 15 years. This is bullshit. The Feds have been raiding that program to fund general spending for about the same length of time. In other words they are fucking crooks. That money belongs to the workers and businesses that pay into it, not the government.
The fact that taxes are not something that can be opted out of is a main argument used by many who are against them but taxes themselves are not a bad thing. How they are spent frequently is.
How do you pay tax on your pension? You're doing it wrong. Pension contributions should come off your paycheck tax free before you pay tax (although there are limitations to the amount you can take off the top of your pay tax free).RobDaBank said:
And if you want to get rid of stealth taxes like VAT and direct taxes like car tax (fuel duties) then the whole tax system gets much more complicated. Either everyone pays one flat rate of income tax (on average increasing the tax to individuals) so that my taxes have to go to paying for roads that I don't use or so teetotalers have to pay tax to cover the hospital expenses of alcholics and smokers to cover their life choices (until the Tories eventually manage to privatize the NHS while everyone is focused on the farce of pasty taxes).
In summary there is no fair way to do taxes, under every system some people are going to feel ripped off and every individuals feelings about the size of the state and the need to fund it through taxation will vary.
p.s. The hot pasty tax still stands, if you buy a pasty that has been kept warm prior to sale it will have VAT, pasties that are still warm from just being cooked will not have VAT and cold pasties will not have VAT. Since this was about 0.0001% of the budget I really don't think it was worth all the energy to correct, the main complaint was that it would hit poor people harder, although by focusing on this almost no comment or debate focused on the cut in the top rate of income tax which clearly favours high earners and could quite possibly widen the rich/poor divide making things even harder for people on low incomes.
As an American, let me express that our tax system is probably equally as fucked up, vial, and corrupt as yours.
What I love, more than anything else, is that our ancestors went to war with yours claiming "No taxation without representation" and yet here we are a few hundred years latter with only the false impression that "we the people" have any say into our government.
I doubt our political atmosphere is really any different than yours from what I've seen via independent media.
I believe the last number I've heard puts over 50% of our federal tax money directly into Military and Defense funding. (Of course other sources say 100% of it goes directly to paying back the Federal Reserve)
In short for me, the tax system here is bullshit and will never be solved because my government feels the need to "borrow" infinite money from the Federal Reserve at interest.
What I love, more than anything else, is that our ancestors went to war with yours claiming "No taxation without representation" and yet here we are a few hundred years latter with only the false impression that "we the people" have any say into our government.
I doubt our political atmosphere is really any different than yours from what I've seen via independent media.
I believe the last number I've heard puts over 50% of our federal tax money directly into Military and Defense funding. (Of course other sources say 100% of it goes directly to paying back the Federal Reserve)
In short for me, the tax system here is bullshit and will never be solved because my government feels the need to "borrow" infinite money from the Federal Reserve at interest.
Well, socialism comes with a price. That said, I have a problem with income tax and property tax. Income tax isn't a tax, it's taken from me, and all taxes should be paid. And property tax is a farce, I am not renting my land from the government. I think there should be a steep property tax paid when you buy the house, and that should be the end of property tax. As for other taxes, I think the best way is to have a high sales tax with necessities(food, clothing, vehicles, and first houses under a certain amount having a lower or completely 0 sales tax. So like, caviar and veal would be taxed, cheerios wouldn't be, Prom dresses would be taxed, jeans wouldn't be, ect.). That's what I think
You need to read less Daily Mail.RobDaBank said:
You should be glad that you can afford to run a personal vehicle and live in your own place.
First world problems.
I think people would be more OK with taxes if they were collected by strippers. Instead of money being taken out of your paycheck, it's stored in a safe. Then, during tax season, a stripper of your choice comes to your door with your money and a boombox.Mortai Gravesend said:
I'm for taxes, I wish my state took more taxes from drivers and put it towards building a more robust public transit system.
I don't mind taxes, but in the USA they really need to fix the obscene loopholes that the rich use to get out of paying next to no taxes. People like Steve Jobs and Zuckerburg are complete douchebags who get away with paying no taxes while the average working stiff gets boned.
Agreed. I don't smoke (Cigarettes), but I will defend to the death your right to. I will also make you pay the government extra so they can cover the health issues you will one day haveMrStab said:
Ah see, technically no. Because being sedentary is a health risk and I said "who doesn't take some risk". Such an entity doesn't exist in normal space. How ever it is theoretically possible to put a bloke in a padded cell, make him do some light cardio and feed him tofu for his entire life. Case in point, Boring Mother Fucker.chimeracreator said:Actually you would be pointing to someone who was a health risk due to their sedentary lifestyle.
Captcha: the cat lady, so true
Captcha: harp on
*Pulls middle finger*
I personally hate income tax. The government isn't entitled to a cut of everyone's money, there has to be a use-reward system.
I use the roads, the government maintains the roads, I pay a road tax.
I use the electric grid to obtain my power from power plants, I pay taxes on that.
Sometimes I can pay up to $2000 a paycheck just in income taxes. That money I worked for, not the government. You provide me a service, I will pay for it. Me simply existing and haveing a job is not a service the government provides.
I use the roads, the government maintains the roads, I pay a road tax.
I use the electric grid to obtain my power from power plants, I pay taxes on that.
Sometimes I can pay up to $2000 a paycheck just in income taxes. That money I worked for, not the government. You provide me a service, I will pay for it. Me simply existing and haveing a job is not a service the government provides.
As much as I hate anybody taking money from me, I am grateful for what it goes towards.
People like to complain, but I'm pretty damned happy living in the UK. We have good facilities in pretty much every town, the NHS is a godsend, the police are pretty reliable for the important stuff and we have plenty of people in government, both local and nationwide, willing to stand up for our freedoms.
Them taking a bit of my money in order to pay for it is a pretty good price to pay in my book.
The only thing I'm not a big fan of is how they deal with taxing stuff that you win (i.e. lottery), inheritance tax and how they can pass taxes onto family's after death.
People like to complain, but I'm pretty damned happy living in the UK. We have good facilities in pretty much every town, the NHS is a godsend, the police are pretty reliable for the important stuff and we have plenty of people in government, both local and nationwide, willing to stand up for our freedoms.
Them taking a bit of my money in order to pay for it is a pretty good price to pay in my book.
The only thing I'm not a big fan of is how they deal with taxing stuff that you win (i.e. lottery), inheritance tax and how they can pass taxes onto family's after death.
and the road you traveled on was kept in good condition with what? your taxes that's right.RobDaBank said:
I am personally for more tax, I hate how many services are becoming privatised in the UK, our prisons, bus services, trains (and the NHS if they can)
These services end up with monopolies and then charge through the roof (see first group)
People always moan that the government is inefficient yet we still vote in the same two parties one after another, we need to break the cycle of party politics because i've never met one person who feels one of the parties represents them
My answer? The Government has it's hands in way too much stuff.
(off topic) I firmly believe that the US and UK are some of the only places in the world where one can literally do nothing to survive, and still survive.
Someone who has a job, has to take care of a spouse and family, doesn't get any financial support, while someones who is single, who doesn't have a job,(and isn't trying to find a job) gets a check in the mail from the United States Government.
What the hell.
(On Topic)
Taxes are necessary to sustain a strong central government, but one that only intervenes when necessary, such as in the Great Depression. Even then the government didn't do much, WW2 was the only thing that saved us.
Everyone should be taxed, the Rich a higher percentage of course cause they can afford it.
Any way, all this Social Security, Welfare, it's all shit.
(off topic) I firmly believe that the US and UK are some of the only places in the world where one can literally do nothing to survive, and still survive.
Someone who has a job, has to take care of a spouse and family, doesn't get any financial support, while someones who is single, who doesn't have a job,(and isn't trying to find a job) gets a check in the mail from the United States Government.
What the hell.
(On Topic)
Taxes are necessary to sustain a strong central government, but one that only intervenes when necessary, such as in the Great Depression. Even then the government didn't do much, WW2 was the only thing that saved us.
Everyone should be taxed, the Rich a higher percentage of course cause they can afford it.
Any way, all this Social Security, Welfare, it's all shit.
I think the US tax code is convoluted and structured to favor corporations and high-income families over the middle and lower classes.RobDaBank said:
However, I support paying taxes. At one point it was seen as a patriotic duty, and I agree. Taxes pay for a lot of things, and even if I disagree with one program or another, I know that someone else disagrees with a program I support.
I would prefer the US tax code and laws to be brought back to the 1950's or so in many respects. Right now, while the apparent corporate taxes are above many countries, the actual corporate taxes are very low (to the point that some billion-dollar companies pay nothing). Also, the income disparity is too great at this time to continue the current income tax tiers. I see absolutely no reason capital gains should stay at 15% of the profit, and no reason why people making over some amount shouldn't be taxed SIGNIFICANTLY more to make up for the income gap that's evolved over the last 3 decades.
Then again, I am labeled as a commy socialist libtard by some.
Yeah, for real. I have a pretty small salary, but I do get royalties for some stuff that's in the TF2 store, the money from which all goes straight into paying off my student loans and is the only thing saving me from them. But they put me into a higher "tax bracket" and for the past two years I've had to write $20,000 checks to the IRS, and have been unable to claim any of my student loan interest ($7k a year), and not a single other write-off. There's basically nothing I can do but hand them like 30% of it and be bummed that if I hadn't had to pay that to the government, I'd be debt free by now.Rednog said:
Yet rich people have amazing ways of diverting their money that I'll never comprehend.
The alternative is living in a lawless society. It costs money for things like roads, plumbing, police, fire, ambulance, defense, medical care, the list goes on.
You live in a country that allows you to have a much better life than 70%+ of the rest of the world. Complaining about paying taxes is very petty.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't question what governments spend tax dollars on however. That is being a responsible citizen.
You live in a country that allows you to have a much better life than 70%+ of the rest of the world. Complaining about paying taxes is very petty.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't question what governments spend tax dollars on however. That is being a responsible citizen.
Taxes are getting ludicrous here in UK.
I agree some taxes are required and fair enough (like road taxes, roads dont fix themselves) but theres so many taxes now its lost the plot and are just a way to fill the coffers and feather the nests of our of touch MPs. Noses in the trough again eh?
I agree some taxes are required and fair enough (like road taxes, roads dont fix themselves) but theres so many taxes now its lost the plot and are just a way to fill the coffers and feather the nests of our of touch MPs. Noses in the trough again eh?
Yea it would be better if they did nothing, There is always a way out. There is always going to be some job that needs to be done but here in America people are too stubborn and think they deserve better.Stagnant said:
Everything is backwards in the US. A person in one of our prisons probably lives an easier and better life than most of the people on Earth. Is that right? That a prisoner has an easy life and doesn't ever have to work? They get 3 a day, a bed, tv, workout whenever they want all for doing a crime against a person.
Maybe the government should lay there hands off of everything just for a second. Just to see what happens.
Now unemployment is different, but i think they should Grandfather social security and other stuff in.
This is the internet, this argument is a waist of time..