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[Bostur]

I think the entitlement argument is a strawman argument at it's core. Some people say that gamers are acting entitled, when in reality people are simply expressing what is on their mind.

If a consumer is dissatisfied with a product it only makes sense to express that, in private and in public. It's part of how a free market works and we shouldn't let the gaming industry get special treatment. I don't blame game companies for trying to use viral effects to their advantage, but I sometimes do blame gamers and journalists for throwing their critical mind overboard.

 

[Pumpkin_Eater]

No one batted an eye when the end of Lost or the Sopranos caused a similar reaction from the masses. The industry wants us portrayed that way to justify over the top anti-piracy measures and their war on the used market. Having a convenient way to (attempt to) deflect Mass Effect 3 criticism was a happy accident for them.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

I say as long as publishers keep charging full price for unfinished, bland, boring, multipayer-dependent "games" on a nearly medium-wide scale, yeah we have a right to complain.

 

[psicat]

Yes too many gamers act like self entitled little loudmouths, especially on the net, that no one would want to be associated with in real life. They are children that demand more for less or no money and if they don't get exactly what they want throw a fit, or decide to try to justify pirating the game.

 

[Emiscary]

Yes too many gamers act like self entitled little loudmouths, especially on the net, that no one would want to be associated with in real life. They are children that demand more for less or no money and if they don't get exactly what they want throw a fit, or decide to try to justify pirating the game.

Of course. It's insane for a fully grown consumer to want what he paid for, or ask for restitution if not. And its up to the industry to put that whiny fucker in his place when he forgets his place.

EA doesn't need kids like you (see how I just dismissively labeled you a kid based on 0 information?) defending its honor. They've got plenty of bloggers and reviewers and employees who'd be happy to tell uninformed consumers that the product they're paying for is perfectly fine and that anyone who believes different is a self obsessed 13 year old (who's probably never gotten laid).

And remember all you angry bioware fans: you're completely out of line to expect anything from the games industry. Ever. I mean who are *you*? And why do you care about *fictional* settings with *imaginary* consequences anyway? What're you, a loser? It's not like you invested *real* time and money into this series, and helped advertise it by word of mouth, and that the company exists to cater to *your* tastes but- oh wait it's exactly like that.

This whole ordeal is *NOT* the meaningless whining of a faceless customer base who'll fall back in line when the next shiny toy comes out. This is a large group of frustrated and unhappy people who knows that the games industry as it is currently set up CAN (don't tell me it can't) accommodate their wishes. And if they opt not to do so in spite of this (which let's not kid ourselves is pretty likely), that's when people get fed up with being ignored belittled and mislead and cease to be your customer base.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

I think the crux if the problem is that some people aren't understanding one point. Consumers have a right to voice their concerns and demands, even loud and obnoxious ones. The point is that EA/Bioware doesn't have to meet those demands. I don't think anyone with any sense thinks they can actually force them to fix it. But to jump all over consumers voicing their displeasure and demands is wrong. You can say they are going about it wrong, being rude and obnoxious, spamming forums, and harassing employees, that is true for some. But supply and demand is economics 101, it's how stuff works. Take that away and we really will just be bending over and letting them do whatever they want.

 

[krellen]

And complain all you want. But where the entitlement comes in is demanding they change things to suit your opinions.

I demand that they properly advertise their product. I am well within my rights to demand that. When I bought ME2, I was buying an RPG. The product delivered to me was a shooter.

 

[Phlakes]

And complain all you want. But where the entitlement comes in is demanding they change things to suit your opinions.

I demand that they properly advertise their product. I am well within my rights to demand that. When I bought ME2, I was buying an RPG. The product delivered to me was a shooter.

That's subjective. Just because you didn't see enough of what you wanted in the game doesn't mean they were misleading you. If anything, it means you bought it uninformed.

 

[Adultism]

Just like we don't OWN a xbox360 we own the right to play it until we do something that warrants Microsoft disabling our system.

Oh god, please tell me this is sarcasm. With some of the things I've seen said around here, especially on this particular topic, I just can't tell any more.

(Just in case it's not: I own my XBox, lock stock and barrel. The only thing Microsoft has a "right" to do is cut off my access to XBox Live.)

Actually they CAN disable your xbox. Deactivate console.

 

[Mr Cwtchy]

I think gamers DO act entitled. Frequently. And in an extremely arrogant and irritating manner.

Whether the complaining in the case of Mass Effect 3 is classified as being entitled, as it seems to be the 'big issue' of choice at the moment, well...
probably not.

All I know is gamers never stop complaining at companies whether the complaints are justified or not.

 

[Vegosiux]

And complain all you want. But where the entitlement comes in is demanding they change things to suit your opinions.

I demand that they properly advertise their product. I am well within my rights to demand that. When I bought ME2, I was buying an RPG. The product delivered to me was a shooter.

That's subjective. Just because you didn't see enough of what you wanted in the game doesn't mean they were misleading you. If anything, it means you bought it uninformed.

Yes, what he said is subjective, but what you said is, of course, an accurate, objective fact.

If I buy a product and the product is not what was allegedly being sold to me, then I have every right to complain, no matter what the product does.

Hell, if I buy a vacuum cleaner that was advertised to have enough power to hold a bowling ball suspended in mid-air, and it fails to do it when I try it, I've been mislead. Even if that power is most likely to just ruin my floor tiles as opposed to actually cleaning them up.

In the end, the customer is always right as long as their complaint can be followed through a logical path - I mean, complaining about ME3 because there were no giraffes in it is just insane troll logic, and the only attention that deserves is a slap with a rolled-up newspaper; but complaining about the ending being a deus ex machina is completely within reason - after all, the ME franchise was a hard science fiction franchise that stuck to set physics rules, apart from the stuff explained by mass effect/eezo technology. Some sort of a galactic entity that borders on godhood is a complete asspull.

But I'm alarmed by how the people seem to be willing to disregard valid complaints because some complaints are retarded.

I'm also alarmed by how every generation we get less gameplay for more money, but that's an entirely different can of worms. But that's why I'm keeping tabs on the BG Enhanced thing revealed yesterday, I wonder what they do with it.

 

[veloper]

I for one appreciate being warned away from bad products. Gamers can never complain loud enough.

Metacritic user scores are a more reliable indication of quality than official reviews.

 

[omega 616]

Stop thinking you can't make demands. This is how capitalism works.

Yet in the same video (or at least a very recent one) he talks about kick starter and says "even though you invest money into the game you have no say over what happens with the game".

He even says at one point "you aren't an investor" only to contradict that a few seconds later, then says "you aren't an investor" again.

Part of the problem there though is he isn't concise.

Anyway, if you want things to change follow through with boycotts, nothing else will work.

Making petitions and silly charity things to get the ending of a game changed is nothing short of petulant!

 

[Phlakes]

And complain all you want. But where the entitlement comes in is demanding they change things to suit your opinions.

I demand that they properly advertise their product. I am well within my rights to demand that. When I bought ME2, I was buying an RPG. The product delivered to me was a shooter.

That's subjective. Just because you didn't see enough of what you wanted in the game doesn't mean they were misleading you. If anything, it means you bought it uninformed.

Yes, what he said is subjective, but what you said is, of course, an accurate, objective fact.

If I buy a product and the product is not what was allegedly being sold to me, then I have every right to complain, no matter what the product does.

Hell, if I buy a vacuum cleaner that was advertised to have enough power to hold a bowling ball suspended in mid-air, and it fails to do it when I try it, I've been mislead. Even if that power is most likely to just ruin my floor tiles as opposed to actually cleaning them up.

In the end, the customer is always right as long as their complaint can be followed through a logical path - I mean, complaining about ME3 because there were no giraffes in it is just insane troll logic, and the only attention that deserves is a slap with a rolled-up newspaper; but complaining about the ending being a deus ex machina is completely within reason - after all, the ME franchise was a hard science fiction franchise that stuck to set physics rules, apart from the stuff explained by mass effect/eezo technology. Some sort of a galactic entity that borders on godhood is a complete asspull.

If a vacuum cleaner can't hold a bowling ball, that's a fact, and they just lied to you. If an ad for a game says it's a shooter RPG hybrid, and you don't think there's enough RPG, that is a valid complaint but not grounds to be making demands.

Every single person that plays the game has a different opinion, and interprets what it is differently. There is absolutely no way Bioware can "properly advertise their product" to the opinions of every consumer, so they advertise how they meant the game to be, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Wolfram23]

Calling gamers "entitled" is overused to the nth degree. It's fucking stupid. Expecting a quality product is not entitlement. It's like calling someone who buys a 2 year old car entitled because he bitches that it breaks down regularly. A car shouldn't have issues for many many years if it's taken care of. And gamers shouldn't have to put up with day 1 DLC for often important shit or games being sold without a proper ending just so they can sell it to you later. I'm fine with DLC that either adds extras that are unimportant to the main game (like map packs, new armor/clothes, expansions) but stuff like what I hear they're doing with From Ashes is just sad.

 

[GigaHz]

It's not entitlement if the developer is deliberately nickel and diming you so that you may enjoy the "full" experience.

It's the other way around, developers. I pay extra money to get the extra fluff I don't need, not what should be included in the main release. This includes 'online passes' and the like. Really, does your company need that $10 for a game that was, at some point, considered a legitimate sale? If I wanted to give my friend a copy of a game I don't use anymore, it's not necessarily given away, being that he needs to shell out some cash in order to get the full usage out of it. It's ridiculous.

It is entitlement if the game is of good to excellent quality and the consumers feel what was included isn't enough.

Sure, there are some exceptions but some cases really make me wonder. Those of us who live and work in the real world know that a tremendous amount of effort goes into making something decent, let alone good or exceptional. Yet some have the nerve to raise their noses and demand that something be revised or included to suit their taste. Why? If you enjoyed the game, why is it you feel that your perceived ideas will add anything of value to a product enjoyed by thousands of others?

Oh thats right, you've never designed a game in your life. What you desire exists in your head and may or may not work in reality.

Why not submit feedback or suggestions to the developer instead of stating why 'that game' is a waste of money in a public forum. Would seem like a greater usage of those stellar ideas you have. Or better yet, why not take a stab at developing an indie game yourself? It might give you some appreciation for the creative process.

For the record, the entitlement comment has nothing to do with Mass Effect 3. I haven't played the game and I don't have a strong opinion one way or another. Just thought I'd make that clear before people take bits of my post and lump it with the problems of Mass Effect 3.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

Yet in the same video (or at least a very recent one) he talks about kick starter and says "even though you invest money into the game you have no say over what happens with the game".

He even says at one point "you aren't an investor" only to contradict that a few seconds later, then says "you aren't an investor" again.

Part of the problem there though is he isn't concise.

Investors have direct control. Consumers have indirect control. At least that's what I got out of it. An investor can say "shoehorn in some multiplayer into this single player focused game" and devs have to comply or they get canned. The only way consumers can make a difference is passively, by voting with their wallets. There is a middle ground between basically making the game yourself and just accepting whatever the publishers feel like shoving up your ass.

 

[omega 616]

anc[is]

Yet in the same video (or at least a very recent one) he talks about kick starter and says "even though you invest money into the game you have no say over what happens with the game".

He even says at one point "you aren't an investor" only to contradict that a few seconds later, then says "you aren't an investor" again.

Part of the problem there though is he isn't concise.

Investors have direct control. Consumers have indirect control. At least that's what I got out of it. An investor can say "shoehorn in some multiplayer into this single player focused game" and devs have to comply or they get canned. The only way consumers can make a difference is passively, by voting with their wallets. There is a middle ground between basically making the game yourself and just accepting whatever the publishers feel like shoving up your ass.

I understand what you are saying and kind of agree with you, the problem is that you as an individual mean fuck all ... for example TB said "I boycotted MW2" do you think activision give a shit that they lost out on TB's money? Fuck no!

The only way you can vote with your wallet is if the majority boycott the game as well, if activision's next COD only sells 10,000 copies world wide you can bet there wont be a MW4 ... see guitar hero for details.

 

[rob_simple]

I think the problem is more to do with differentiating between people 'acting' entitled and people who just want what they deserve.

Someone who gets upset and constantly posts on forums because the splash damage for grenades isn't the same in Resistance 3 as it was in Resistance 2 is a self-entitled dipshit.

Someone who gets upset that they've spent £40-£50 on a game that's only half-finished (which they didn't realise; I agree that if you buy it knowing this you deserve all you get) has every right to demand some answers.

The problem, to me, is that the ones who complain loudest are the ones who have no real right to complain; sort of like how the only protesters you ever see on the news for any topic are the eccentric fringe groups that even the main body of the protest would like to distance themselves from.

Oh, and Captcha: 'I'm not dead yet'. That's some fucking freaky Ring shit right there.

 

[Shavon513]

I honestly don't know. If you are dissatisfied with a product, give it bad reviews, boycott it's use, and complain to the manufacturer. However, with literature, movies and video games, there is a space for artistic license that consumers don't exactly have the right to demand changed. i am not sure if this exactly applies to Mass effect, only because we spend the first two games where choice and character relationships are heavily emphasized, all to be taken awy and thrown out completely in the last ten minutes of ME3.
Fans being disappointed is one thing, fans demanding free story ending change in dlc is another, and is frankly entitled. Were we entitled to a better ending that didn't smack us in the face? yes. Do we have the right to demand that Bioware change their mistake? no.