Hypothetical: If Pearl Harbour never happened...

[ReservoirAngel]

I'm watching a Discovery History channel show about how Britan, America and Germany all got involved with World War 2 and it got me thinking...

...if the Japanese had never attacked the port at Pearl Harbour, would they have ever gotten involved at all? Cause this show said that up until that point the American people had been almost entirely against getting themselves involved, but were 'dragged into World War 2' by the attack.

So do you think America would have gotten involved with the War if the Japanese hadn't made that very bad tactical decision. And as a result, would the Germans have still failed at epicly as they did?

*ducks from incoming "We saved your asses, you'd be speaking German without us!" screams from the super-patriotic*

 

[ZiggyE]

It wasn't America getting involved in the war that made Germany lose, it was the Germans invading the Soviet Union. That separated the German forces onto two fronts and it was the Soviets, not the Americans, who pushed the German army all the way back to Berlin.

I'm not saying that America was uninvolved in the war effort, just not to the affect that Germany could have won if Pearl Harbour was never bombed.

 

[Richardplex]

I'd say that either we or Germany would of won, but the side that won would have taken a crippling number of casualties. But that comes from someone who only did up to GCSE history, so what do I know?

It wasn't America getting involved in the war that made Germany lose, it was the Germans invading the Soviet Union. That separated the German forces onto two fronts and it was the Soviets, not the Americans, who pushed the German army all the way back to Berlin.

I'm not saying that America was uninvolved in the war effort, just not to the affect that Germany could have won if Pearl Harbour was never bombed.

Oh yeah, that, go commies!

 

[WolfThomas]

The problem with that scenario is that the Japanese attacked pear harbour because the American embargo was limiting their expansion, so something was bound to happen. I think the American would have eventually gotten involved as the war went and perhaps more little about Auswitz emerged. The Russian would have still gone all the way to Germany but with perhaps more difficulty. Who knows honestly?

 

[CloudKiller]

The only reason Britain was able to last as long as it did alone was due to our airforce stopping the Nazis launching an invasion across the british channel. We couldn't have kept that up forever, eventually the superior resources Germany had would have allowed them to succeed. We needed the American army to help in holding western Europe.

If Britain fell then Hitler could have sent his entire army against Stalin and taken Russia. At that point he'd target America, so they'd have had to get involved sooner or later, but by coming in when they did we were able to attack Hitler on two fronts and limit the resources he had.

If a Nazi attack on America conincided with an attack from the Japanese then it's possible that America would have fallen too leaving the entire world to Hitler.

 

[Stoplesteimer]

First of all, Germany didn't really epic fail; considering they were a relatively small country(compared with the allies) and were just getting over the previous war that devastated their country, I would argue that they held up rather well.

Now, to the main point- at that time America was rather isolationist in its policies, and the war was not 'our' war- it was the European's. Of course there were conflicting opinions on whether of not America should join in the fighting, but pre-Pearl Harbor, all US assistance was in the form of money and equipment.

My conjecture is that the US would only have entered the war once Britain was heavily invaded,as they were the last obstacle on the way over the atlantic. I would guess that this would have drastically increased the length of the war, owing to the difficulty of sending troops all the way across the atlantic and straight into the fight. Also, Russia would have played a much larger role in the European campaign,leading to a USSR that probably would have spanned the continent, which has its own ramifications on the cold war.

In short, the US would have entered the fight, just much later.

 

[Merkavar]

the allies would have won the war with or with out the US. it would have just taken longer and more lives.

this is one of the things i never got about the US. they only entered WW2 after they were attacked. i thought at the time they were allies of England but the english being attacked didnt provoke them into action. Seems to tarnish their image as the good guys. cause to me good guys help there friends especially when enemies at at their doorstep.

 

[ZiggyE]

this is one of the things i never got about the US. they only entered WW2 after they were attacked. i thought at the time they were allies of England but the english being attacked didnt provoke them into action. Seems to tarnish their image as the good guys. cause to me good guys help there friends especially when enemies at at their doorstep.

Americans didn't want to waste the lives of young Americans in another war as the stain of World War One was already familiar in everyone's minds. Also, it should be pointed out that Britain and France were never attacked pre-war and they declared war on Germany after Germany invaded Poland.

 

[nunqual]

the allies would have won the war with or with out the US. it would have just taken longer and more lives.

this is one of the things i never got about the US. they only entered WW2 after they were attacked. i thought at the time they were allies of England but the english being attacked didnt provoke them into action. Seems to tarnish their image as the good guys. cause to me good guys help there friends especially when enemies at at their doorstep.

The US was giving huge amounts of money and supplies to the UK and her allies. They even supplied them with troops at times. However, I think one can understand why they were reluctant to jump into the war. It would have, and was, unimaginably costly, not only in dollars but in lives.

OT: I think the US would have gotten involved sooner or later, perhaps too late. There were already huge amounts of tension between the US and Japan. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor out of necessity, if anything.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The only reason Britain was able to last as long as it did alone was due to our airforce stopping the Nazis launching an invasion across the british channel. We couldn't have kept that up forever, eventually the superior resources Germany had would have allowed them to succeed. We needed the American army to help in holding western Europe.

If Britain fell then Hitler could have sent his entire army against Stalin and taken Russia. At that point he'd target America, so they'd have had to get involved sooner or later, but by coming in when they did we were able to attack Hitler on two fronts and limit the resources he had.

If a Nazi attack on America conincided with an attack from the Japanese then it's possible that America would have fallen too leaving the entire world to Hitler.

Um...no. The Germans simply weren't able to invade the UK, for a variety of reasons (though this wasn't obvious at the time).

They didn't have the logistic support for an invasion, the RN would destroy their supply lines and leave any invaders isolated. The Germans also couldn't destroy the RAF, because they didn't have the range to reach all of the UK. The RAF could retreat to the north and recuperate...leaving the cities to the mercy of the bombers, but in preparation to attack any invasion fleet.

Nor could they conquer Russia. It was simply too big, and the logistics, again weren't there for them. The USSR had too much territory, and too poor an infrastructure (I think with this in mind). The German military may have been superior, but without the logistics to back it up, that strength was severely limited.

As for conquering the US...same problems, except you have to defeat the US navy and land troops an ocean away on hostile shores, and conquer most of a continent. The US's industrial capacity was unsurpassed, and they developed fission devices by the end of the war.

Just wouldn't work.

 

[tehroc]

We lost World War II anyways. Even though we won the war the forces of fascism has dug it's tendrils deep into the world and would rather see the planet destroyed then to give it all up to democracy.

Let's not forget that certain elite supported the Nazi's like Prescott Bush.

 

[Kryzantine]

I would think an event such as Pearl Harbor would be inevitable. The Japanese needed to strike at us. And we needed an excuse to get into the war.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And we needed an excuse to get into the war.

The us warship Reuben James was sunk by a German submarine on Halloween before Pearl Harbour, mind, and that event didn't bring the US into the war.

 

[SillyBear]

I'm watching a Discovery History channel show about how Britan, America and Germany all got involved with World War 2 and it got me thinking...

...if the Japanese had never attacked the port at Pearl Harbour, would they have ever gotten involved at all? Cause this show said that up until that point the American people had been almost entirely against getting themselves involved, but were 'dragged into World War 2' by the attack.

So do you think America would have gotten involved with the War if the Japanese hadn't made that very bad tactical decision. And as a result, would the Germans have still failed at epicly as they did?

*ducks from incoming "We saved your asses, you'd be speaking German without us!" screams from the super-patriotic*

If Japan didn't attack the USA, then the Japanese wouldn't have expanded in the Pacific at all. Attacking the USA was inevitable, the Americans were placing trade embargo upon trade embargo upon them and it got to the point that Japan couldn't sustain their own war effort.

So they had to do something that would knock the USA out for a while, give themselves enough time to expand and set up - then hopefully enter negotiations or come to a deal with the USA.

Japan never wanted to fight a war with the Americans. They weren't stupid and they knew they would lose if it came to that. But a few vital mistakes during Pearl Harbor and the Battle of Midway ensured that it did - and the Japanese knew they were defeated by 1942.

So you're asking what would happen if none of that occurred? Well, the USA would have kept bullying the Japanese to the point they couldn't take it anymore and gave up their plans of expansion. Maybe. More realistically, the Japanese would have just attacked them elsewhere. They had to do something.

Hope that helped!

We lost World War II anyways. Even though we won the war the forces of fascism has dug it's tendrils deep into the world and would rather see the planet destroyed then to give it all up to democracy.

Let's not forget that certain elite supported the Nazi's like Prescott Bush.

lolwut.

Considering the fact that nearly all of the developed world is democratic and is heavily outspoken and critical against fascism, I'm going to call bullshit on that.

Fascism is concerning, yes. But it's mostly underground and has very little large implications for the first world.

 

[SckizoBoy]

If Japan didn't attack the USA, then the Japanese wouldn't have expanded in the Pacific at all. Attacking the USA was inevitable, the Americans were placing trade embargo upon trade embargo upon them and it got to the point that Japan couldn't sustain their own war effort.

So they had to do something that would knock the USA out for a while, give themselves enough time to expand and set up - then hopefully enter negotiations or come to a deal with the USA.

Japan never wanted to fight a war with the Americans. They weren't stupid and they knew they would lose if it came to that. But a few vital mistakes during Pearl Harbor and the Battle of Midway ensured that it did - and the Japanese knew they were defeated by 1942.

So you're asking what would happen if none of that occurred? Well, the USA would have kept bullying the Japanese to the point they couldn't take it anymore and gave up their plans of expansion. Maybe. More realistically, the Japanese would have just attacked them elsewhere. They had to do something.

True, but it depends on which facet of Japan you're referring to. The Imperial household was reluctant at worst and ambivalent at best. It was the naval command (and the Japanese ambassador to the US, a former naval officer) that didn't want to fight the Americans, and Yamamoto was spot on when he said that he could cause trouble for about a half year, but after that he wouldn't be able to say (Japanese attack Pearl Harbour: 7th Dec 1941, Japanese lose at Midway: 7th June 1942). However, the army command wanted to fight anything with two legs that didn't speak Japanese. They twisted a communique from Yamamoto into a propaganda stunt (the quote was something to the effect that were the two nations to make war, then 'we cannot stop at the West Coast, we cannot stop at in the Mid-West, we must march into the White House and dictate terms on the President's desk').

To be fair, though, the American political machine was very slow in recognising the Japanese threat. The PURPLE code had long been cracked and US military intelligence knew of Japanese plans well before their embassies did. And politically, how did the appointment of Saburou Kurusu as 'diplomatic envoy' not sound alarm bells?!

If Adm Kimmel had been more pro-active, instead of just rolling on his heels asking questions, recalling the Enterprise and Lexington, the Pearl Harbour disaster could've been avoided. Ultimately, I blame Adms Stark and Turner for being such dicks.

 

[erbkaiser]

Even if the Japanese had somehow not encroached upon American interests in the Pacific, America would have found another excuse to get involved with the war against Germany and Japan. The goal of WW2 on the allied side was to eliminate the major powers in both Europe and Asia, and in this they succeeded completely.
Germany lost a good third of its territory and manpower, and was occupied for the next decades. The goal of the Jalta conspirators was to eliminate Germany forever, or at least keep it a backwards agrarian society. The Wirtschaftswunder was a 'miracle' mainly because despite all the pressure from the occupying nations, Germany still managed to recover and reform: first the three western occupation zones, and much later the Soviet satellite state. The east (Silesia, Pommerania, Prussia) should be considered fully lost.
Likewise Japan lost all its possessions in southern Asia and the Pacific, parts of its historic territory (Kurill and Sakhalin, and until 1972 Okinawa), and was placed under full occupation during which time the entire feudal system was dismantled. MacArthur's laws tried to make sure that no family would be able to keep any of its money past inheritances, and it was only the ingenuity of the Japanese in that they formed family companies that prevented the total destruction of their culture.
Of course by destroying both the European and Asian power blocs, the USA opened the way for the USSR to become the second world power (and at the same time ensuring the USA would become the main one, the real loser of the Jalta conspiracy was the UK which became irrelevant before the war was over), and thus lead directly to the cold war.

The only thing that would have prevented US 'intervention' would have been a nazi sympathizer government coming to power in the US before the Japanese-American concentration camps were started, which was not likely at all. The closest thing was the "America First" movement under Lindbergh, who did not run for president in 1940, and likely would not have won either. Even if America had signed a non-aggression treaty with Germany, it would still have gone to war with Japan eventually, and because of the system of alliances it would find itself on the USSR side against Germany anyway.

 

[Smooth Operator]

From what I remember about WW2 history Japan snapped when America pushed the trade embargo's, it's very questionable who wanted that attack.

And America got a reason to really join when they put a load of American tourists on a french cruise ship and sent it right through Germany occupied waters, who could have guessed it would get shot to bits.

OT: What would happen without Pearl Harbor... the attacks would just migrate somewhere else, but the sides would clash at some point.

 

[Catchy Slogan]

If Japan didn't attack the USA, then the Japanese wouldn't have expanded in the Pacific at all. Attacking the USA was inevitable, the Americans were placing trade embargo upon trade embargo upon them and it got to the point that Japan couldn't sustain their own war effort.

So they had to do something that would knock the USA out for a while, give themselves enough time to expand and set up - then hopefully enter negotiations or come to a deal with the USA.

Japan never wanted to fight a war with the Americans. They weren't stupid and they knew they would lose if it came to that. But a few vital mistakes during Pearl Harbor and the Battle of Midway ensured that it did - and the Japanese knew they were defeated by 1942.

So you're asking what would happen if none of that occurred? Well, the USA would have kept bullying the Japanese to the point they couldn't take it anymore and gave up their plans of expansion. Maybe. More realistically, the Japanese would have just attacked them elsewhere. They had to do something.

True, but it depends on which facet of Japan you're referring to. The Imperial household was reluctant at worst and ambivalent at best. It was the naval command (and the Japanese ambassador to the US, a former naval officer) that didn't want to fight the Americans, and Yamamoto was spot on when he said that he could cause trouble for about a half year, but after that he wouldn't be able to say (Japanese attack Pearl Harbour: 7th Dec 1941, Japanese lose at Midway: 7th June 1942). However, the army command wanted to fight anything with two legs that didn't speak Japanese. They twisted a communique from Yamamoto into a propaganda stunt (the quote was something to the effect that were the two nations to make war, then 'we cannot stop at the West Coast, we cannot stop at in the Mid-West, we must march into the White House and dictate terms on the President's desk').

To be fair, though, the American political machine was very slow in recognising the Japanese threat. The PURPLE code had long been cracked and US military intelligence knew of Japanese plans well before their embassies did. And politically, how did the appointment of Saburou Kurusu as 'diplomatic envoy' not sound alarm bells?!

If Adm Kimmel had been more pro-active, instead of just rolling on his heels asking questions, recalling the Enterprise and Lexington, the Pearl Harbour disaster could've been avoided. Ultimately, I blame Adms Stark and Turner for being such dicks.

The sad thing is is that the FBI was warned that there may be an attack on Pearl Harbour, But the the general mistrust of foreigners (and the fact the guy giving the info was a double agent) meant this warning wasn't passed on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusan_Popov

 

[ShindoL Shill]

1. if an american ever says 'you would be speaking german if it werent for us' calmly point out that germans only speak english as a choice.
2. russia would have been fighting germany and japan, so they wouldnt have made the advance on berlin as quickly as they did. fortunately, the brits probably would have reached hitlers bunker first.
3. World War 1. america joined in when the brits/french were running out of men to fight. the same probably would have happened here.

now think about this: japan doesnt attack pearl harbour, is forced into a land-based battle with russia (which is a bad decision), then america joins in with troops who've recovered even more from ww1 than germany/japan and have had the chance to fully train all their troops. it was the best tactical decision the japanese could have made.

 

[SckizoBoy]

The sad thing is is that the FBI was warned that there may be an attack on Pearl Harbour, But the the general mistrust of foreigners (and the fact the guy giving the info was a double agent) meant this warning wasn't passed on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusan_Popov

Thanks, I did not know that.

Though on a lighter note, I'm amused regarding the origin of his code name(!)