Hypothetical Transgender Scenario

[Kopikatsu]

Something was mentioned in another thread (should be easy to tell which one) that made me consider the following:

Suppose there are several scholarship and enrollment quotas for women in order to give them preference for STEM fields in an attempt to increase the participation of women in those areas of study. However, there is a man who says he is transgender and has applied for the female-only scholarships, and only female 'slots' are left for the program that he wants to sign up for.

Should he be granted the scholarships and/or acceptance into the program? Why or why not?

Second scenario for people who answered 'yes' to the previous question. Assume that other men see this as a loophole to get into the field that they want and now all of the slots put aside to be filled by women are filled by men claiming to be transgender. Is this a problem? If yes, what can be done to solve it?

Third scenario. Same as the above, except instead of men pretending to be transgender, they actually are transgender. What should be done if anything?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Yes if evaluated in the same way they must be evaluated to start transitioning.

 

[White Lightning]

See shit like this is why this whole damned transgender thing is so goddamn stupid. You can't prove the guy isn't a trans women and if you say "oh well maybe he should only get it if he's got the surgery" they can just say they can't afford it. If you disagree or try to nay say you're oppressing them.

It's really quite amazing what these social justice groups have done, they've created a perfect... loophole? Is that the right word? You literally cannot question their nonsense without repercussions while the other person gets to do whatever they want.

As for your question, sure just give it to them. I'd imagine it would be hard to attach any kind of condition considering how dumb the situation is to begin with.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

See shit like this is why this whole damned transgender thing is so goddamn stupid. You can't prove the guy isn't a trans women and if you say "oh well maybe he should only get it if he's got the surgery" they can just say they can't afford it. If you disagree or try to nay say you're oppressing them.

It's really quite amazing what these social justice groups have done, they've created a perfect... loophole? Is that the right word? You literally cannot question their nonsense without repercussions while the other person gets to do whatever they want.

As for your question, sure just give it to them. I'd imagine it would be hard to attach any kind of condition considering how dumb the situation is to begin with.

You do realize that to transition they have to see a doctor yes? Do you somehow imagine that they just get anything they want without any kind of checking?

You just make things up about how it is impossible to question them. I'd say that's based on prejudice rather than any sort of facts.

 

[White Lightning]

See shit like this is why this whole damned transgender thing is so goddamn stupid. You can't prove the guy isn't a trans women and if you say "oh well maybe he should only get it if he's got the surgery" they can just say they can't afford it. If you disagree or try to nay say you're oppressing them.

It's really quite amazing what these social justice groups have done, they've created a perfect... loophole? Is that the right word? You literally cannot question their nonsense without repercussions while the other person gets to do whatever they want.

As for your question, sure just give it to them. I'd imagine it would be hard to attach any kind of condition considering how dumb the situation is to begin with.

You do realize that to transition they have to see a doctor yes? Do you somehow imagine that they just get anything they want without any kind of checking?

You just make things up about how it is impossible to question them. I'd say that's based on prejudice rather than any sort of facts.

Nah, just personal experience. When I was in summer school a few years ago there was someone who looked like a women using the mens restroom, I asked what they were doing and it blew up in my face. I thought they were lost but no one even bothered to listen to my side of the story, I was just removed from the program. Maybe I'm a little biased but meh.

Define see a doctor? I always thought you could just waltz in to a plastic surgeon office and you were good to go.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

See shit like this is why this whole damned transgender thing is so goddamn stupid. You can't prove the guy isn't a trans women and if you say "oh well maybe he should only get it if he's got the surgery" they can just say they can't afford it. If you disagree or try to nay say you're oppressing them.

It's really quite amazing what these social justice groups have done, they've created a perfect... loophole? Is that the right word? You literally cannot question their nonsense without repercussions while the other person gets to do whatever they want.

As for your question, sure just give it to them. I'd imagine it would be hard to attach any kind of condition considering how dumb the situation is to begin with.

You do realize that to transition they have to see a doctor yes? Do you somehow imagine that they just get anything they want without any kind of checking?

You just make things up about how it is impossible to question them. I'd say that's based on prejudice rather than any sort of facts.

Nah, just personal experience. When I was in summer school a few years ago there was someone who looked like a women using the mens restroom, I asked what they were doing and it blew up in my face. I thought they were lost but no one even bothered to listen to my side of the story, I was just removed from the program. Maybe I'm a little biased but meh.

Define see a doctor? I always thought you could just waltz in to a plastic surgeon office and you were good to go.

Well there's this for a quick check on what they actually have to do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery#Standards_of_care

I don't think it'd be a far stretch to assume they could expect at least a diagnosis before allowing a scholarship.

It does suck that you got kicked without them checking what was actually going on on your end, but I really don't think that sounds usual.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You'll forgive me if this doesn't sound a lot like one of those "if we permit gays to marry, next people will be marrying their cats" scenarios.

When the first case of this occurring comes to light, bring it here and we'll discuss it.

 

[Kopikatsu]

You'll forgive me if this doesn't sound a lot like one of those "if we permit gays to marry, next people will be marrying their cats" scenarios.

When the first case of this occurring comes to light, bring it here and we'll discuss it.

There is Rachel Dolezal, who got a scholarship on the grounds that she was black (she isn't).

So while I can't point to a specific instance of someone who is transgender (or at least claiming to be such) 'gaming the system', people lying about themselves/their bodies to get money isn't unheard of either. Given how the MSM has been reporting lately, I doubt they would consider it newsworthy unless someone claiming to be trans was outed as a fraud. Although that would be incredible hard if not impossible to do. So! Chances are that won't happen.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I think that if there are scholarships designed to get women into what are traditionally men's fields, then there should be scholarships to get men in to what are traditionally women's fields. Essentially that's equality there. Assuming that both groups meet the financial aid requirements.

Now for transgender people? Well there is a general need in the trans community for help with scholarships to get higher learning. But part of the reason for this is that transgender people often have issues with consistent employment, this is due to discrimination, there is also the fact that many trans people have families that refuse to help them. So assuming there is a system for this situation, how do you prove it? Well it can simple, a sub program where a gender specialized psychologist, or psychiatrist is offered by the school, if they decline the help you have a few possible scenarios: They already have a therapist already who is helping, are satisfied with that therapist, and this something easy enough to prove. They don't have a therapist, in this case most gender dysphoric people will jump at the chance, or at least would be willing to give said therapist a shot. Finally assuming they flat refuse to even consider see a therapist, period, then the you have a fairly straight foreword indicator of someone who isn't being truthful about being trans.

Such things can be incredibly difficult to define though, any such programs would get flack from all sides of the trans community, either for being too broad, or too narrow on definition of what defines being trans. For example, plenty of transgender people don't want sexual reassignment surgery, for whatever reasons, but still pursue other types of Gender Reassignment through other surgery and hormone replacement. There are many ardent transsexuals who believe that if you don't want, or/and get full sexual reassignment, then you're not trans, most don't adhere to this line of thought, but it's there in the community.

All said it'd be easy enough to find later if someone did "game the system" if they didn't transition, in which case I think they should have to pay back the scholarship with 100% interest on what they originally got, plus inflation. Honestly, I think that that rule should apply to all such scholarships, to prevent people from cheating their way into programs for disadvantaged people.

See shit like this is why this whole damned transgender thing is so goddamn stupid. You can't prove the guy isn't a trans women and if you say "oh well maybe he should only get it if he's got the surgery" they can just say they can't afford it. If you disagree or try to nay say you're oppressing them.

It's really quite amazing what these social justice groups have done, they've created a perfect... loophole? Is that the right word? You literally cannot question their nonsense without repercussions while the other person gets to do whatever they want.

As for your question, sure just give it to them. I'd imagine it would be hard to attach any kind of condition considering how dumb the situation is to begin with.

It's stances like these that cause people to think that Gender Reassignment treatments for gender dysphoria are purely elective, and that gender dysphoria are purely made up. Neither of which is true. In fact social justice groups have made things worse by trying to make gender identity totally unassailable, it does nothing to diminish the ignorance about the subject, nor lessen the hate. What it does do is make some people extra angry about the whole thing, causing them to cling harder to prejudices. Social justice groups may actually be making life more difficult for trans people, not easier, in this respect.

Nah, just personal experience. When I was in summer school a few years ago there was someone who looked like a women using the mens restroom, I asked what they were doing and it blew up in my face. I thought they were lost but no one even bothered to listen to my side of the story, I was just removed from the program. Maybe I'm a little biased but meh.

Define see a doctor? I always thought you could just waltz in to a plastic surgeon office and you were good to go.

Keep in mind that you're dealing with a group that particularly sensitive due to being marginalized and mistreated by society at large, this can cause massive resentment. Also if you mistake a guy for a gal, or visa versa most of the time they'll blow up in your face, this is regarding cisgender/non-trans people, not just trans people. Although being removed from the program out of hand was something of an extreme overreaction on the part of the people in charge, in my opinion. One would think an apology, maybe an explanation for both sides too, would suffice in such a situation.

Also you can't just walk in to a plastic surgery place and get sexual reassignment surgery(SRS), and many transgender people never get such surgery anyways for various, usually very personal reasons. Besides just to qualify for full SRS you need live as a member of the opposite gender for at least a year most places. It can take months of therapist visits just to get the recommendation to receive hormone replacement therapy(HRT), mind you just the recommendation, after which other tests, like blood tests need to be done. Hormone replacement therapy is a necessary first step for any further gender reassignment treatments. It's not just getting a boob job and vaginoplasty. Even then full sexual reassignment surgery isn't something all trans people opt to get, not getting sexual reassignment does not mean one has not transitioned, or that one is not transgender. In my case for example; my development on HRT, an orchiectomy, and little else is what it's taken for me to be happily transitioned, and I don't feel the need to do more. But each step I've taken has been difficult enough on it's own, each took a great deal of time just to start on for more than just financial reasons. I'm lucky that I got to start early, but each thing took a great deal of work just to get clearance and recommendations for. So no you don't "just waltz in to a plastic surgeon office and you're good to go."

I'm sorry that one particularly bad experience happened to you before and I'm sorry that it colors your whole opinion of trans people in general. I really wish that one experience didn't color your opinion of all trans people.

 

[Shraggler]

The apparent, simplest solution is to remove gender as a basis for qualification; anyone who's interested in studying in those particular fields is welcome to apply.

Fuck sociological-based quotas. They're too arbitrary, too vague, and it seems that they just devolve into a numbers game at some point.

 

[Summerstorm]

Hm, i remember an 80ies movie with some white guy using experimental skin-darkening pills to get into a scholarship for black students. Learning some valuable lessons on the way i assume.

Maybe we should just throw out all scholarships / special programs etc. - Have enough "slots" for everyone. Have a perfect standard for all schools, colleges and universities and abolish all costs for education. Ha, easy to do.

Man, i like fairness...

 

[Hazy992]

This is like the time Jeremy Irons said fathers will marry their sons to avoid tax if we allow same-sex marriage. It has no basis in reality and shows a complete lack of understanding of what transitioning actually is.

 

[chikusho]

The reason that gender-based programs like this exist is to encourage marginalized groups to participate in fields they are usually excluded from. To level the playing field and allow opportunities to those who would otherwise be overlooked or rejected due to prejudice or biases.
Women are often systematically denied access to certain fields, if not in the selection process then certainly by a biased culture that will hinder them from receiving fair treatment. Considering that trans-women are an even more marginalized group, they could actually have a greater benefit from being allowed access to programs like this, not to mention the positive effect of having an institution recognize your gender.

The miniscule risk that some dude would lie about his gender to get into a program is well worth it considering the benefits of a successful program.

 

[joshuaayt]

Yep, because trans folk absolutely need people creating extreme examples that seed distrust.

Ask yourself something: "Is this actually going to happen?"

Is it seriously likely that a significant number of slots are going to be filled by cis men willing to pretend that they're trans for the duration? You know transgendered people aren't, like. Treated well, right? It's not a premium membership club with exclusive deals.

And even that's an argument that just assumes such a scholarship would be granted to a trans woman with only their word on the matter which, nice as that sounds, isn't likely. Gender Dysphoria is diagnosable, you know.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

Or they could just throw in the caveat "must have publicly identified as a woman for at least a month to be qualified" or some other lawyery mumbo jumbo. Should weed out some of the scammers

 

[K12]

Do you seriously think somebody would spend their life as a different gender for the sake of a scholarship? This is similar (though less creepy) than the questions asking whether a man might be lying to spy on/ harass women in the women's bathrooms. Why not ask about Sophia in "Orange is the New Black" being in a women's prison since that's far more topical?

If they could qualify for a scholarship then wouldn't you think that virtually anybody would defer until next year and get the men's scholarship then rather than decide to spend the next few years living as a women?

If this hypothetical transgender person has been living as a women and is legally a women then yes she should qualify for the women's scholarship (but not the men's scholarship obviously). If he simply saw that only the women's placements were available and then developed a cunning plan to get one then it would be be pretty transparent. There'd be nothing wrong with getting him/her to provide information from his/her doctor to confirm what he/she is claiming.

People seem to think that accepting that people's gender isn't binary suddenly means you have to unquestioningly accept anything that anybody claims to be, like a dolphin. How about we deal with this situation if/when it ever comes up rather than imply that this is an inevitable consequence of accepting people as transgender.

 

[Asclepion]

People seem to think that accepting that people's gender isn't binary suddenly means you have to unquestioningly accept anything that anybody claims to be, like a dolphin. How about we deal with this situation if/when it ever comes up rather than imply that this is an inevitable consequence of accepting people as transgender.

That likely IS the inevitable outcome of people having the option to drastically modify their bodies. I have little doubt that technology won't eventually be advanced enough for a person to augment themselves into a dolphin, or have butterfly wings grafted onto their back, or have giant synthetic eyes to look like an anime character. The logical endpoint of accepting that sex can be changed is accepting that being a human can be changed.

 

[Dizchu]

That likely IS the inevitable outcome of people having the option to drastically modify their bodies. I have little doubt that technology won't eventually be advanced enough for a person to augment themselves into a dolphin, or have butterfly wings grafted onto their back, or have giant synthetic eyes to look like an anime character. The logical endpoint of accepting that sex can be changed is accepting that being a human can be changed.

That's a slippery slope argument. It is exactly like saying "if marriage isn't between a man and a woman, that means people will be marrying kids and animals". People are essentially saying "your gender identity must correspond with your biological sex, if it doesn't that means people will be able to become dolphins or have butterfly wings or whatever". Things like giant synthetic eyes are cosmetic, they serve no purpose other than they look a certain way, just like tattoos or breast implants or hair dye. Gender reassignment surgery is not the same thing. Drag queens dress up like women and they openly state that they are men. Transgender people aren't drag queens, they're not putting on a show, they're wearing makeup or taking hormones or getting surgery so they can feel like normal people.

 

[Asclepion]

That's a slippery slope argument. It is exactly like saying "if marriage isn't between a man and a woman, that means people will be marrying kids and animals". People are essentially saying "your gender identity must correspond with your biological sex, if it doesn't that means people will be able to become dolphins or have butterfly wings or whatever". Things like giant synthetic eyes are cosmetic, they serve no purpose other than they look a certain way, just like tattoos or breast implants or hair dye. Gender reassignment surgery is not the same thing. Drag queens dress up like women and they openly state that they are men. Transgender people aren't drag queens, they're not putting on a show, they're wearing makeup or taking hormones or getting surgery so they can feel like normal people.

"A person feels like having a penis instead of a vagina does not reflect who they are, they change that through artificial means" to "A person feels like having arms instead of flippers does not reflect who they are, they change that through artificial means" is not a slippery slope. Conceptually, they are exactly the same thing.

 

[wizzy555]

Wow people have short memories. This is exactly the problem the fine young capitalists had. They had men applying for their female only competition pretending to identify as women.

Matt said in multiple interviews that he went for legal advice and was generally disappointed in how he couldn't get straight answers from people. So he went to the Canadian homeless shelters and they ask for gender BEFORE they say what beds are available.

So the TYFC had the rule that entrants must have transitioned before the contest started. Which led to them being called transphobic yadda yadda.