I always thought the Brotherhood of Steel were the good guys.

008Zulu_v1legacy

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So my primary video card died recently, and until the new one arrives, I have been playing on my backup card which won't run Fallout 4, but will run Fallout New Vegas. And I have the Tale of Two Wastelands mod installed so I can play Fallout 3.

In F3, I remember the BoS being the Good Guys, who wanted to bring clean water to wasteland for all to benefit from, human and ghoul alike. I had completely forgotten about the Outcast faction, who as it turns are the actual Brotherhood of Steel, who only turned away after Lyons decided to not be a colossal dick to the inhabitants of the Capital Wasteland.

This one small thing I forgot, has changed how I perceive the entire Fallout-verse.

I never played Fallout 1 and 2 to any great length, were the BoS always so xenophobic?
 

Comic Sans

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Absolutely. Fallout 3's Brotherhood was a massive exception, not the rule. To them, outsiders are basically cave men slamming rocks together, and they treat them as such. In Fallout 4 they have evolved enough to be willing to bolster their numbers with outsiders, but have become even more hard line anti-nonhuman to an almost Enclave level degree, and also have no problem forcing people to cooperate with them for "the greater good". They have never been "good guys" except in Fallout 3.
 

totheendofsin

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If I recall correctly the BoS you encounter in 3 is a splinter group that broke away from the main BoS over a fundamental conflict of beliefs
 

Zhukov

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008Zulu said:
I never played Fallout 1 and 2 to any great length, were the BoS always so xenophobic?
Yeah, kinda.

In the original Fallout they weren't really out to screw with anyone but they sure as hell weren't remotely altruistic or helpful either.

They just holed up in an underground bunker hoarding all the cool tech for themselves. They were essentially unassailable by any of the hostile factions (besides super mutants) because they were the only ones with heavy weapons and power armour. Anyone coming close was told to bugger off or catch a bullet, including the protagonist. You have to do a bunch of quests before they let you in.
 

MHR

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It's funny you got that impression initially. As already said, FO3 Brotherhood were the oddballs, actually going around helping wasters with their over-arching concerns. The outcasts were the real brotherhood doing what they're supposed to.

The Brotherhood as described in New Vegas were the typical deal most people would see. If you had some tech they wanted, you got the full extent of their negotiation tactics at the hot end of a laser rifle.
 

FalloutJack

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008Zulu said:
How the BoS handles things changes wih time and leaders. Fallout 1, they were condescending. Fallout 2, they were secretive, but actually somewhat helpful in the end. Fallout 3, the East Chapter was denounced by the West Chapter for getting too involved and Elder Lyons gave them the proverbial finger. Of course, by Fallout Vew Vegas, the West Chapter also got its ass roundly beaten by NCR, for the most part. And so, we come to Fallout 4, where it is regrettable that the West Chapter swung back towards being more zealous in their actions. It happened after Sara Lyons died, much the same way NCR became a bit of an ass after Tandi passed away. So, they're...kind of good guys...but mostly it's less evil than the Enclave has been in he games.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Makes it hard to choose a faction in Fallout 4 now. The Minutemen are pretty bland, the other 3 are varying degrees of jerks.

Zhukov said:
Yeah, kinda.
Kinda wish I stuck with F1 and 2 now.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Think of the Brotherhood as your local Space Marine Chapter. Pretty cool from a distance, and who doesn't like Power Armor and jump packs, but you really don't want to live in a place they need to be deployed and unless you're planning to swear total allegiance to them, you want to avoid blipping on their radar.

Interactions end one of two ways. You either 'volunteer' to become an initiate, or get a power fist to the dick.
 

FirstNameLastName

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008Zulu said:
Makes it hard to choose a faction in Fallout 4 now. The Minutemen are pretty bland, the other 3 are varying degrees of jerks.

...
I actually kind of like that; it makes choosing a faction come down more to the player's own opinions and philosophy, rather than simply picking whether you're good or a jerk.
 

Kyrian007

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From the first until 4 I've always looked at the BoS as being potentially good, but they have to be kicked into it. 3 was the exception but even in my NV initial game I had formed them into a patrolling peacekeeping force for good like they were in 3. I even had to murder House and kick the NCR off the strip to do it, and I didn't want to take the city for myself.
 

IceForce

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I think probably most people (and I include myself in this) first started their Fallout experience with 3 (having never played the original two games). So naturally, the way the BoS is portrayed in 4 came as something of a curveball.

Anyway, I'm torn. Because physically, the Prydwen is awesome. Then again, physically, the Institute is awesome too. It's just a shame that these two awesome game locations ('premises' if you will) are attached to the most jerkish factions. (Although, I guess that's the whole point; to make your decision harder.)
 

Raddra

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Lore BoS would kill you if you were using tech they deemed 'unsafe for non BoS hands'. This would include if you had a protectron or if you were fortunate enough to have a laser rifle. You either gave it up or they would literally murder you to take it.

F3's BoS were indeed a just a splinter group.
 

Ragsnstitches

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The BoS aren't good or bad per say. They are isolationist and xenophobic for the most part, with the DC chapter being a notable exception. Depending on when we see them they tend to sway slightly from the grey on the moral spectrum, one way or the other.

The initial brotherhood were a secretive group that made damn well sure anyone not from the brotherhood kept their distance. They would take technology from the wastes, presumably flexing their technological advantage on anyone who protested, and horde them away... even non-military tech that could benefit the wastes. As a result of the Super Mutant horde, they also develop a huge case of xenophobia towards mutants of all kinds, which becomes apparent in later eras.

In 2 the Californian chapters are getting battered by the Enclave who are technologically superior and 1000% more crazy. This version of the Brotherhood is still secretive and isolationist, but they know they need outside help to beat the enclave. The Enclave possessed the same hubris of the brotherhood, therefore didn't see wastelanders as a threat, which the Brotherhood tried to use to their advantage (assisting some smelly tribal to do their dirty work).

In 3 we see a side of the Brotherhood that is hinted at but often suppressed. This chapter is far more altruistic and are willing to put themselves on the line to help the wasteland. But it's a contentious stance and a splinter group travel the wastes doing what brotherhood do best but with an even greater helping of scorn and nasal gazing, making for an uneasy tension between the 2 groups. Talking to the Mutants in Underworld reveals that even the "good" brotherhood aren't exactly enlightened, as they don't value Ghoul lives very much if at all.

New Vegas shows the end times of the old brotherhood ways and either their demise or reform. Isolating themselves made them weak, rejecting new blood made them few and their tech no longer yields an advantage as the collapse of other chapters as well as the enclave has resulted in a lot of tech becoming more widely available, if still uncommon, out in the wastes.

Fallout 4 see's the Altruistic reformed brotherhood take a few too many cues from their old Enclave nemesis. They are now a force that operates in the open and in large scale deployments. They even recruit wastelanders to their cause to bolster their numbers. They speak of greater good and at some level they are genuine. But they are totalitarian, bordering tyrannical. On top of that they still hold to old xenophobic tendencies towards mutants, even though there are numerous examples of reformed Super Mutants and entire communities of ghouls that get by peacefully.

The BoS for the most part only had their own interests in mind, yet when they finally opened up to help others it quickly became a warring faction set on conquering the wastes, even if peaceful wastelanders get trampled underfoot. The BOS has potential to be a great force for good, but instead we are seeing a revival of the Enclave, minus old world rhetoric and propaganda.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Ragsnstitches said:
An interesting evolution of the group you have presented. Considering that that majority of the endings in F4 show the Brotherhood being knocked down, I wonder if this isn't part of some larger story where the Brotherhood isolate themselves in to extinction. How much of the East coast were wiped out aboard the Prydwyn? I wonder how far east the NCR could have pushed in 10 years (it's likely that the NCR winning, and Caesar dying is the canon ending for NV)?

I think the moment I lost all respect for the Brotherhood was when I offered the now ghoul Vault-Tec rep a place among the settlements I established, and Paladin Danse commented that I should have killed him instead.
 

Ihateregistering1

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Yeah, the BoS has splintered frequently and there has been opposition from within, but they've really never been altruistic (except perhaps the DC chapter).

Even in Fallout: Tactics (which, granted, is considered non-canon) the only reason they help the villages is because the villages promise them recruits and food in exchange for protection, and the only reason they start accepting Ghouls, Mutants, etc. in their ranks is because they need them to survive.
 

Ragsnstitches

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008Zulu said:
Ragsnstitches said:
An interesting evolution of the group you have presented. Considering that that majority of the endings in F4 show the Brotherhood being knocked down, I wonder if this isn't part of some larger story where the Brotherhood isolate themselves in to extinction. How much of the East coast were wiped out aboard the Prydwyn? I wonder how far east the NCR could have pushed in 10 years (it's likely that the NCR winning, and Caesar dying is the canon ending for NV)?

I think the moment I lost all respect for the Brotherhood was when I offered the now ghoul Vault-Tec rep a place among the settlements I established, and Paladin Danse commented that I should have killed him instead.
I don't think extinction or even extreme isolation will occur, not like what could have happened if they didn't reform initially. The brotherhood is exposed now and they've taken on new blood that has ties to the wastes, for good or ill. Either they become another warring faction similar to the enclave and go to greater blows with the NCR then the usual skirmishes or they splinter into various smaller groups with wildly different goals.

Regardless I think the most likely scenario is that the brotherhood evolve into something else. Who they were and what they once stood for no longer exists. The brotherhood were tech conservationists and gatekeepers, now they aren't even a brotherhood beyond being one in name only and the tech that once made them stand out is being wielded by raider groups, completely destroying their power base. They now proactively seek technologically superior groups and try to out muscle them before they grow in strength, like the Enclave remnants and the Institution.

On a personal note, I like this evolution of the Brotherhood. While I did find the DC chapter in 3 kind of flat and uninteresting, the way it contrasted with the old BoS, how said old BoS's faith was explored in New Vegas and how they've played with this shift in goals in 4 is really working for me. Whatever happens to the Brotherhood at least I'm interested in it.
 

pookie101

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even in 3 the good brotherhood had to literally have someone kicking and screaming at their front door for them to actually get off their asses and set foot outside the citadel let alone actually help people.

someone else also mentioned that they were trigger happy at the best of times, with mutants and ghouls, tending to have a shoot on sight view.

once the moderating influences of the lyon's were gone the brotherhood is back to its old hate everyone, we know best xenophobia.

i do wonder what happened to the lone wanderer in the 10 years between fallout 3 and 4 id say the brotherhood purged the less zealous members
 

Mister K

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From what I remember, BoS stand for purity of humanity, for protection of what is left of pre-war world. To them an outsider is a fallen, a person who not only soesn't share the vallues BoS desires to protect, but said outsider also is irradiated, unpure. It is even worse with mutants.

However, as far as I am aware, they know how to work together with "lesser evil" to take down the actual threat.
 

Erttheking

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Kyrian007 said:
From the first until 4 I've always looked at the BoS as being potentially good, but they have to be kicked into it. 3 was the exception but even in my NV initial game I had formed them into a patrolling peacekeeping force for good like they were in 3. I even had to murder House and kick the NCR off the strip to do it, and I didn't want to take the city for myself.
Technically you can get the BoS to form an alliance with the NCR. You have to leave the current head in and Colonel Moore gets pissed at you (Screw you lady) but it can be done.