I am curious...why should God "have to be provable"?

[Archaeology Hat]

Most of the Christians don't do that either. We just live by the 10 amendments.

Most atheists live by the 10 commandments, too.
Well, except for the first three, of course.
4-10 aren't really that specific to the Christian/Jewish religion, they're basic moral rules of conduct that have been around a lot longer.

I do believe that in the times those "moral rules" have been written down, at least 90-95% of the people were religious. You've got to admit that people would rather respect some giant dude in the sky (remember, we're years and years before Christ) that won't protect you from Hell than an old geezer on a throne somewhere far, far away from your home.

Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence evil cometh?

Is he neither willing nor able?

Then why call him god?

- Epicurius, 33AD

Free will, look it up.

If God prevented evil people from doing evil acts, he would be no better than an overlord or a slaver, whipping you and pushing you whenever you think of anything bad.

If god cannot work around that there is something he CANNOT do, thus he is not omnipotent. As the Abrahamic religions Worship a specifically stated Omnipotent god we must conclude he is either Malevolent or not real. QED.

Long live the Cathar Heretics.

I don't live by the 10 commandments either. I have gods before the Judaeo-Christian god (Commandment 1). I regularly exclaim "Oh god!" when I stub my toe (Commandment 2). I have worked on the Sabbath (Commandment 3). I sometimes covet other peoples possessions (Commandment 10). No, the code of laws I live by is secular law, which comes from Roman law, which is only passingly influenced by the Commandments.

I do however dispute the Spainish Inquisiton being all that bad. No, the Spainish Inquisition was the only 16th century authaurity not to try people as witches, as Inquisitors could find no proof of Witchcraft they refused to take Witchcraft cases to court. In it's entire three to four hundred year history it burnt a total of aproximatly 4,000 people, most of them between the period of 1480-1500 when in fact it was being used as a tool of the secular government of Ferdinand and Isabella to steal the Jew's money. During the same period the rest of Europe burnt 4,000 people for Witchcraft alone.

There are accounts of spainish criminals in the secular prisons of the 16th century, which were by all accounts pretty hellish, deliberatly and loudly blaspheming so that they would be transfered to the Inquisition prisons. In the Inquisition prisons they were treated much more humanely and also actually had the chance of a fair trial where they'd be provided with a lawyer.

 

[comadorcrack]

The main Argument is that Science means proof and Religion Means faith.
While both these are true in esne. You musnt seperate Siance from religion. Religion and science can co-existy, as long as religion is taken with a pinch of salt. I don't believe that god deffinately created the earths. I believe that evolution took place. But I stil believe in god. I choose to believe in the teachings of the bible, not the exact words of the Bible.

Anyone who demands proof, in my belief, needs to grow up and accept that people can believe in a god for the beterment of themselves.
Conversely anyone who believes in the exact words of the bible and compleatly throws away sciece, needs to learnt hat science makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Bible ever did.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

I believe in god. The day i believe in evolution is the day i see a building gather all the materials needed to build itself and then builds itself. That is next to impossible.That is like 900 quadrillion to 1.

bio organisms can develope and evolve on their own, they're alive .. concrete isn't .. i'm sorry man but that is by far one of the worst arguments i've heard

So you are saying a building can build itself? Get me a plane ticket i like to see it. On a side note how do explain paranormal events like ghost and demons etc. My family and i seen paranormal events that science can't explain. {No we don't do drugs or are insane.]

Evolution does not deal with the origins of life, evolution deals with the way life adapted to it's enviroment. From the most simplest of cells to the most complex organisms.

How do I explain paranormal events? That can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence aka provide evidence that those paranormal events happened and then I will believe you. But out of curiosity, what were those events that you exprienced? Now again out of curiosity, did that happen at night by any chance?

Parnomal things had happened at different times of day and night. A lot this happen during my highschool years. My family lived in a haughted house. My grandma saw a kitchen raised off the stove by itself. Most of my family saw a ghost of a 11 to 13 year old girl. At first my grandma saw it and thought my little brothers {13 and 14 at the time] snuck a girl in the house.[they honestly didn't.] We ripped the house apart looking for the girl but found nothing.plus the outside doors were still locked.{only the adults had a key to the house.] My family all but me saw ghosts in that house. To this day i never saw a ghost in person. I saw signs of a ghost.

I came back from 12 hour shift at work,got some food from sonic's. I turned on the tv while i eat like i always do. Then the cable started to mess up.{You remember on old tvs where you didnt have the cable plug in it turn to static. It was like someone was pulling the cable out. My cable wire was hard to unplug. You manully had to turn the turn the wire a special way then pull it out. I lost it and started to cuss." You motherfucking ghost ***** better leave my cable alone before i beat your ghost ass!"

The cable starts going crazy. static/no static for like a minute. I cussed again "Ghost ***** why don't go up in the attic? No one is up there." A few secs later i hear heavy stomping up in the attic.{everyone else was asleep at time.] I then said "You better stop before i beat your ghost ass!" The stomping stops. I am a see to believe it kind of guy when it comes to ghosts. Lastly we didn't handy at the time. what are suppose to put cammeras all over our house to prove. Plus we were a proud family and was not going to be chased out of our house. If a ghost came to us threatening us, we would be like."Shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of my house!" We was not scared in the least.

"Parnomal things had happened at different times of day and night. A lot this happen during my highschool years. My family lived in a haughted house. My grandma saw a kitchen raised off the stove by itself. Most of my family saw a ghost of a 11 to 13 year old girl. At first my grandma saw it and thought my little brothers {13 and 14 at the time] snuck a girl in the house.[they honestly didn't.] We ripped the house apart looking for the girl but found nothing.plus the outside doors were still locked.{only the adults had a key to the house.] My family all but me saw ghosts in that house. To this day i never saw a ghost in person. I saw signs of a ghost."

"Peduncular means pertaining to the peduncle, which is a neural tract running to and from the pons on the brain stem. These hallucinations usually occur in the evenings, but not during drowsiness, as in the case of hypnagogic hallucination. The subject is usually fully conscious and can interact with the hallucinatory characters for extended periods of time. As in the case of hypnagogic hallucinations, insight into the nature of the images remains intact. The false images can occur in any part of the visual field, and are rarely polymodal."

"I came back from 12 hour shift at work,got some food from sonic's. I turned on the tv while i eat like i always do. Then the cable started to mess up.{You remember on old tvs where you didnt have the cable plug in it turn to static. It was like someone was pulling the cable out. My cable wire was hard to unplug. You manully had to turn the turn the wire a special way then pull it out. I lost it and started to cuss." You motherfucking ghost ***** better leave my cable alone before i beat your ghost ass!"

You ever thinked for a second that there might have been a problem with the cable itself and not a ghost?

"The cable starts going crazy. static/no static for like a minute. I cussed again "Ghost ***** why don't go up in the attic? No one is up there." A few secs later i hear heavy stomping up in the attic.{everyone else was asleep at time.] I then said "You better stop before i beat your ghost ass!" The stomping stops. I am a see to believe it kind of guy when it comes to ghosts. Lastly we didn't handy at the time. what are suppose to put cammeras all over our house to prove. Plus we were a proud family and was not going to be chased out of our house. If a ghost came to us threatening us, we would be like."Shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of my house!" We was not scared in the least"

Again, there might have been a problem with the cable and the attic disturbances might have been rats.

Shit that happened to me:
The closet's door above the kitchen ,where we keep forks and such, is not exactly "good". It always opens. Sometimes when it oppens forks fall out of it. Does that mean a ghost did it? I sure did taught so until I saw it happen right before my eyes. Changed the door and never had a problem since.

I woke up one night suddently seeing 2 pairs of red eyes staring at me. Was that a ghost? No. Was that a night terror? Yes.

When I was at school me and my friends would usually hear noises coming from the bathroom. It turned out to be a broken pipe.

When I used to go to my grandparents I used to hear noises in the attic. I taught it was a ghost too and started screaming one day at it to stop and it actually did stop. My grandfather came in the room and asked me what the fuck was I doing. I told him I was trying to scare the ghost away. 1 hour later me and him were comming down from the attic having just killed 3 rats.

I used to hear fainth voices and taught it was a ghost. When I went to the doctor about a bad cut I had at my hand and I told him about what me hearing shit. It turned out that it was a mild form of hallucination known as a disturbance.

Has a kid I used to see images form in the dark right before I fell asleep. Told the doctor about those too and apparently they are very common and are called hypnagogic hallucination.

All of these stopped by the time I was aged 17.

how do you explain that a a kitchen pan raised clean off a stove by itself. Plus how do explain that 100 plus people see the same thing but have never spoke to each other privously.

Either an illusion or a hallucination.

100 people see the same thing but have never spoken to each other?...what? See what?

Like a demon, ghost etc. On side note i worked in so called ghost infested buildings and didn't see anything. I believe if go in a place expecting ghosts etc you will think any thing is ghost related. I believe in ghosts etc but i am a big believer in the simple solution is usually right.

So if I go in a building expecting a ghost I will not see you. Please explain to me why would I ever bother going into a building expecting a ghost?
The simple solution seems right because it's simple. The complex solution seem false because it's complex and most of the times very hard to understand. It's a very weird "logic".

Yes, I do think that all the 100 or so people who claimed they saw ghosts and demons are lieing or witnessed an event that they weren't able to describe and so they attributed it to the supernatural. We can attribute everything to the supernatural: What was that noise? It was a ghost! Where does that smell come from? It's a demon! You see, you chose the simplest solution without even investigating. What happens when you investigate? You see that a claim without evidence is a claim that cannot be trusted.

The reason someone goes to a place expecting is most likely to ghost stores or wanting to be scared.{There is nothing wrong with a good spook hunt every now and then.] When i said i believe in the simple solution is usually right i meant for example you hear a strange noise it is probaly a bad pipe or something on that line. When i was kid i lived next to the furance room for years so i pay strange noises no mind. My bed would have to lift itself off the floor with me in it before i would think there is proof of a ghost.

And yet when there are noises in the attic or there's something wrong with the cable you turn to the supernatural.

The reason i thought they were ghost related was because the cable wouldn't show static unless you unplug it. If the cable went out it would go black. The stomping wasn't like a rat crawling in the attic. It sounded like someone was river dancing up there. I had a bad day at work that night and was pissed off.

Then it might have been a hallucination(The attic part)You had a bad day at work and were tired. Has for the TV again there might have been a problem with the cable. It used to happen a lot whilst I was at my grandfather too. Then the company that was providing "the cable" went bankrupt so he turned to another one which provided both Internet, Telephone and Cable and never had a problem again.

 

[Abedeus]

Most of the Christians don't do that either. We just live by the 10 amendments.

Most atheists live by the 10 commandments, too.
Well, except for the first three, of course.
4-10 aren't really that specific to the Christian/Jewish religion, they're basic moral rules of conduct that have been around a lot longer.

I do believe that in the times those "moral rules" have been written down, at least 90-95% of the people were religious. You've got to admit that people would rather respect some giant dude in the sky (remember, we're years and years before Christ) that won't protect you from Hell than an old geezer on a throne somewhere far, far away from your home.

Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence evil cometh?

Is he neither willing nor able?

Then why call him god?

- Epicurius, 33AD

Free will, look it up.

If God prevented evil people from doing evil acts, he would be no better than an overlord or a slaver, whipping you and pushing you whenever you think of anything bad.

If god cannot work around that there is something he CANNOT do, thus he is not omnipotent. As the Abrahamic religions Worship a specifically stated Omnipotent god we must conclude he is either Malevolent or not real. QED.

Long live the Cathar Heretics.

I don't live by the 10 commandments either. I have gods before the Judaeo-Christian god (Commandment 1). I regularly exclaim "Oh god!" when I stub my toe (Commandment 2). I have worked on the Sabbath (Commandment 3). I sometimes covet other peoples possessions (Commandment 10). No, the code of laws I live by is secular law, which comes from Roman law, which is only passingly influenced by the Commandments.

God doesn't slave us because he loves us, not because he can't. Remember that according to the Bible, people writing it were "under God's influence". Who knows, maybe he put a block on himself, to avoid temptations.. but then again, he's perfect and doesn't feel the need to control us.

Besides, he's as loving as vengeful. Old Testament is full of examples where he overdid a bit (turning a city into sand, attacking people with plagues and tormenting them). But Christianity is more about... Christ. Weird, I know.

Also, Roman law was long after Hammurabi and his laws, which then inspired Judaist laws, which then passed onto Christianity. And since by the end of AD 395 Romans were Christians...

 

[TheDuckbunny]

Because there are two 'truths' in this world. Religion and Science. Science is provable, so everyone that believes in science comments about religion not being provable and thus being the lesser truth.

Wow, just came up with that on the spot.

Science isnt always proveable, science and religion are almost a ying-yang type realationship.

Like we know that everything is basicly atoms but we dont know why they are there and if someone created them or put them there.

What science dosnt know is religion. What religion dosnt know is science.

I don't entirely agree on that. Religion and science often overlap on certain 'truths'. Like human existence for instance. They both believe a different story to be true. And now this isn't the best example seeing as human existence according to both science and religion can't be completely proven, but it does show that it doesn't always coexists next to eachother.

 

[SecretTacoNinja]

What does make me mad is it seems like people are trying to get us beleivers to stop beleiving.

Only arseholes who can't handle the fact that others believe in something are trying to do that. Hopefully those people are teenagers and will soon grow out of it.

 

[Uncompetative]

God.

This word has been used a lot in this thread by a lot of different people. Many of whom have a different concept in mind when they read the word "God".

Dog.

To prove a point, just write down the first thing that comes to mind when you encountered that word: "Dog". What breed of dog were you thinking of? Was it asleep, or awake, barking, or pissing against a lamp-post? Was it road-kill? Everyone here will have a different 'Archetype' as there is no ONE DOG.

Similarly, there is no ONE GOD.

Now, I am staying out of the whole "existence"/"proof"/"faith' argument this time around as that is not the purpose of my post. All I wanted to observe was that you were all arguing about something that may be definite in your mind (i.e. you may have a strong faith in Yahweh, or you may have a philosophical conviction that you prefer to live in scientifically provable reality with the understanding that science undergoes continual revision in the light of new experimentally verified evidence), but was in no way "well defined" with a single definition for everyone.

How then can you discuss this?

It is even worse than talking about dogs and whether we like or dislike them as pets, or are only prepared to tolerate them when they are "working dogs", checking bags at the airport, or guiding blind people, or rounding up sheep. As none of us has had tangible experience of "God". You even get disagreements between different denominations that essentially follow the same "God" - e.g. Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland over "Jesus".

Perhaps, we should stop saying "God" until we all know what we mean, or at least qualify our perception of the Archetype we implicitly hold so that others that read what we have written don't jump to the wrong conclusion.

 

[Archaeology Hat]

God doesn't slave us because he loves us, not because he can't.

If he was omnipotent he could do both, there is something he cannot do or will not do. He is either not omnipotent or he is Malevolent.

 

[tenlong]

I'd like to see one of these whackjobs get the swineflu despite having taken the flu shot and then argue against evolving organisms....

You are saying all those who believe in god are whack jobs.You also wish harm to them. You are just as bad as a bible thumper telling all atheists they are going to hell. If you believe there is no god,that is your right. I believe in god, that is my right. Why can't you agree to disagree. We all worship something. Whether that be god ,sports,video games,movies etc. There is something you can't live without and always want to have.

I'm saying bacteria are evolving at a rate which we can study,
but, sure, go ahead and read in a WHOLE lot more into a post than that...

For someone who believe without questioning you... Wait, you just prove my point even more by assuming I'm stating things without questioning.

And for the sake of argument: No, I don't worship Anything. I hold a firm anti-material standpoint and shun any and all things that causes one to stagnate.
So, no, we don't all worship something, it's just you Dogpeople who need a pack and can't rise up to be an Alpha. Us cats.. We just shake our heads.

So you are saying that you have no hobbies at all and just stare at a wall all day. All people have hobbies that take a big chuck off their time. Sooner or later you have to do that hobby. It becomes like a itch. Unless you find a new hobby you have to do it. If people don't worship or obssess anything. How do explain people stand in lines{while in rain,snow,hail ,etc] for days to get tickets,books etc. They wouldn't do that just like it a little bit. They love it to the point of worship and/or obsession.

I have hobbies, thank you very much,
I study psychology at a university level,
I enjoy the company of good friends on a sunny summer day,
I'll gladly play a video game every now and then,
also am quite fond of the works of Terry Pratchett and from time to time Zero Punctuation,
why you can't wrap your mind around the act of enjoying life without being an, as YOU describe yourself, obseesive worshiper, but rather a free mind with expanding worlds, basking in the glory of nature's beauty and sharing a smile and all your love with those around..
I can't quite understand youre inability to comprehend texts and your rather disturbing *need* to assume far more than is stated.. It Does however explain a whole lot about you and your relation to this figment of your mind you label as God.
Fascinating and tragic.

I am just a sad person who has like 20 + different hobbies [anime,movies,
,bike riding,books,games,weightlifting,comics,internet surfing to name a few.} Plus i am going to college soon. I plus a enjoy a good talk with family and friends. But i am so narrow minded and don't try anything new. It is so sad that i enjoy my life. I need help. i have nothing to do. Plus i need to throw that reading comprehension test i aced to get into college.

Well I'm glad for you.
I don't know if I'd put "internet surfing" as a hobby though..?
"Essential for daily functioning at this point of mankinds evolution." is a bit closer to the truth.
If you're sad about enjoying your life (or imply that I've stated it) I'd say you might want to revise your values.

Oh, and I wouldn't "brag" about my community college reading comprehension test if I were you,
as we both know, it doesn't measure anything related to your functioning in a social setting.
Or to put it in your "aced" test's style "sarcasm is to internet forums as lack of social awareness is to:
A. Christians
B. Community College Students
C. Obsessive Worshipers
This question is worth 2 points.

The reaI said something about my test because you said could understand what you said. But that went over your head. I hate about a lot of people{both people in god and does who don't.]is that you don't believe what they believe you are narrow minded .

You might want to read that... Three or four times over and correct it..

Oh my god i got tired and mess up a post on the interwebs! Oh noes! I got to to kill himself now!

 

[jayhawk97]

Well first I'd like to apologize, I didn't mean your life had no purpose, that was harsh, more so that life is very much more so colorful with a god.

Other than that I would like to say that where you speak of trends, I think it is impossible to remark upon that simply because atheism has really only been prominent for a few hundred years. To me tens of thousands of years of theism cannot really be weighed against the few centuries of accepted atheism. That said it is a possibility that ceasing to exist as it where is "a heaven" in and of itself, with a creator god behind it (I understand it's a long shot, I'm just saying it is possible.) Oh! And I know my ordering is off, but I'm very tired. To be honest, yes I would call many 18-25 year olds immature. I'm not saying I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread, nor am I all that great, but I can at least say that I normally don't prescribe to something because it is cool. What I often find funny is when you have people who go into fads in the gaming community (since the gaming community is almost "uncool" in itself. Of course I'm not insulting something I'm a part of, I refer to it terms of the broader social spectrum). Many older people are even immature, so it's no stretch for me to imagine many 18-25 year olds buying into something to look cool. Just examine the ages of many posters here and you'll see quite a few in the 1990-1994 years (which though not all in the aforementioned demographic are part of that general age group I suppose). Many of those I've spoken with on these forums are in that age group and often are "angry because Christians want to impress their beliefs on us" (and really nothing else except that twilight is awesome, as is marajuana, and harold and Kumar). Somehow these things are grounds for atheism or something /boggle. (It was a joke, really).

To say that human civilization has existed for tens of thousands of years is a gross exaggeration. Maybe ten thousand years. I think it takes civilization to have actual dogmatized theism as we use the term now. But anyways, think through history of all the conflicts that have sprung from religious differences and even disagreements between worshippers of the same god, and all the unreconcilable hatred that has stemmed from that. If that was gone, history would be a much more peaceful place. Still, tons of conflict, to be sure, but it's all for an actual reason, towards pursuing a real goal like obtaining resources or land, not towards imposing one group's delusions on top of another's (These can still be quite violent and barbaric, and unforgivable in many cases, but are not motivated by theism, atheism, or any cosmic belief). And today... take away all the religious passion and conflict that stems from that. There's still tensions and differences to reconcile, but these are far more arguable and negotiable that when someone believes something is the unchangeable word of god... no negotiation there.

When a nation becomes predominantly atheist, there will be no need for the term atheism. Because you can't be the opposite of something that doesn't exist. There is no belief to defend, because you have no belief other than fact. People will not be stirred to go to war over the first law of thermodynamics or something. All you're arguing is that athiesm could possibly, in the future, be at least as dangerous as theism. It cannot be, because it does not offer intoxicating promises and compellation by an all powerful being that will cause normal people to do irrational and violent things. And it has not been shown to be in the past.

Please explain to me how life is more "colorful" with a god. I'm not even sure what you mean by that, or if it is quanifiable. I do know that most of my friends believe in god and we all are able to enjoy enjoyable things. And I used to theoretically believe in god when I was younger, and I don't enjoy things any less now.
And please try to say what you mean. If you don't mean that my life is "devoid of any real reward," and that I have "no reason to work or do anything," don't say it. That said, I accept your apology.

Okay, if we do assume that a statistically significant number of 18-25 year olds who say they're atheist are just doing it to look cool without any true reason, then what are we to assume of the theists? Why do people first believe in a god or a certain theology? Because their parents or adults in power over them told them to. Do people always question their own beliefs they've held since childhood? I'm sure some do, but there has to be a great many who don't. What is church if not a social community? Did it ever occur to you that for every internet forum atheist trying to look cool but not really understanding what it is to be an atheist that there must be many people who go to church to be a part of that social community and profess a belief in the majority relgion just to gain acceptance by that majority?

 

[Abedeus]

God doesn't slave us because he loves us, not because he can't.

If he was omnipotent he could do both, there is something he cannot do or will not do. He is either not omnipotent or he is Malevolent.

Are you putting fingers in your ears and shouting LALLAALLA?

I just told you - he can, but he doesn't want to. How can he slave us and NOT slave us at the same time? That's like saying something can be hot and cold at the same time.

Is it so hard to understand, that he just doesn't WANT TO slave us? He won't stop us, but it doesn't mean he won't punish people doing bad things in the afterlife. After all, he warned them.

I know, it sounds like a paradox. But there are tons of paradoxes around things impossible to understand by a human mind. Remember that most of the paradoxes can be "fixed" by changing the laws of physics. Stone too heavy? Disable the gravity. Burrito too hot to eat? Place it in a heat-resistant material. Aaand so on, so on.

 

[Uncompetative]

You should all shut up. None of you can know what the others in this thread will think you mean when you use the word "God".

At least try qualifying your statements - Supreme Being, Creator, Saviour, Guardian, Source of Peace, The Way... add your own.

Enough of this blanket God crap.

 

[Tdc2182]

Because some people need proof for everything.

Indeed, those fools called "intellectual" and "sane"..


"Oh there's a bearded fella flying above us without a plane despite 6-7 billion others being unable? Oh he's also invisible, creating everything and the only one of his kind and he created all this from nothing, for no reason, and made us because he loves us, even though he couldn't love if he didn't create emotions so he can not love without creating love and then it's just a machination of his own device, quite like a sociopath proclaiming "love" for someone...? Yeeeeah you might want to give support for that claim."

In contrast to mr Christian who goes "That makes PERFECT sense!"
Damn scientology look-a-likes...

I could easily be skeptical about your non-beleif. If a god is real than he is most likely unable to comprehend, making narrow minded people like you needing proof for something that you would never be able to process. And who says he has a beard.

Ah, but if people like me are unable to comprehend a proof of God, then by design, I'm flawed and doomed to Hellfire anyways, because of God. So we're still on square one we're God either made me flawed in a way which he refuses to redeem my soul, or, he just plain doesn't exist and I'm just a sane and intellectual sceptic with a rather severe case of tourette's.
And on that point, I'm saying he has a beard,
are you to question the gender and looks of God? Like you KNOW anything about that, Believer.

Who said god controls your life? Thats what is called fatalism, and I am not a fatalist. You control your actions So your choices are your own. Therefore you would be doomed for eternity in hellfire because of YOUR OWN actions. ( I'm not trying to scare you into beleiving, merely making a point) And I did not question the gender and looks of god in my last post, Reread it.

Oh, I've tried to believe in God, trust me, I've sought him, I've begged, I've hunted,
but no, there's nothing that can make me believe in God, it's in my very nature to not accept.
And I just expanded on the beard issue.
So what ACTIONS will doom me?
The fact that I love unconditionally? That I help the poor? That I do charity work every week? That I study psychology at a university level just to help others?
"Oh but it's your faith"
Well, you see, that's not an action. That's a thought. Thought and action are NOT the same thing. (And there's fMRI's to prove it!)

Then you should have nothing to worry about. MRI's have never been able to proove anything. They've found neurotransmitters but have never known howthey work. Maybe you're not trying hard enough. And stop questioning my religion and my god. I have had enough of that for the past few years of my life. You people have made it harder to believe in him. What trouble does it cause people these days? If anything it makes people who do believe do good things. Is it really that big of a deal if we can have faith for something we don't need to be proven?

 

[jayhawk97]

God doesn't slave us because he loves us, not because he can't.

If he was omnipotent he could do both, there is something he cannot do or will not do. He is either not omnipotent or he is Malevolent.

Are you putting fingers in your ears and shouting LALLAALLA?

I just told you - he can, but he doesn't want to. How can he slave us and NOT slave us at the same time? That's like saying something can be hot and cold at the same time.

Is it so hard to understand, that he just doesn't WANT TO slave us? He won't stop us, but it doesn't mean he won't punish people doing bad things in the afterlife. After all, he warned them.

I know, it sounds like a paradox. But there are tons of paradoxes around things impossible to understand by a human mind. Remember that most of the paradoxes can be "fixed" by changing the laws of physics. Stone too heavy? Disable the gravity. Burrito too hot to eat? Place it in a heat-resistant material. Aaand so on, so on.

"Slave" is not a verb. Enslave.

So you say that god stopping people from doing bad things would be slavery? And slavery is cruel?
According to you, if god forced us to follow his will that would be akin to slavery. But if you are a true believer, god does force you into following his will. Rather than telling you what to do before you do it, he threatens you with eternal punishment if you go against him. If you really believe that sort of thing, you would absolutely never go against him.
A slave is not stopped from diobeying his master as soon as he thinks about it, but after he follows through on the diobedience, he is punished. Same thing is theoretically happening here with god.
God, then, allows evil to exist and clearly has no problems with threatening and coercing people to follow him. If he allows this evil and he is omnipotent, he is malevolent. And evil does not need to be evil actions by people, it can be pain and suffering caused by other things, like disease and natural disaster... which kill and cause the suffering of countless innocent people. Either he will not or cannot stop these from happening, making him either fallible or malevolent. (Or nonexistant).

And... if god was omnipotent and benevolent and wanted to avoid coercion or "slavery," why wouldn't he just create only people who would never disobey him?

You should all shut up. None of you can know what the others in this thread will think you mean when you use the word "God".

At least try qualifying your statements - Supreme Being, Creator, Saviour, Guardian, Source of Peace, The Way... add your own.

Enough of this blanket God crap.

1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/god
There are other definitions, this is the most common and most general.

Then you should have nothing to worry about. MRI's have never been able to proove anything. They've found neurotransmitters but have never known howthey work. Maybe you're not trying hard enough. And stop questioning my religion and my god. I have had enough of that for the past few years of my life. You people have made it harder to believe in him. What trouble does it cause people these days? If anything it makes people who do believe do good things. Is it really that big of a deal if we can have faith for something we don't need to be proven?

Why should religion and god not be questioned, just like anything else that people claim to be true?

What trouble does religion cause people these days? Have you read my other posts in this thread? Short answer: lots of trouble. One example: September 11.

 

[Tdc2182]

God doesn't slave us because he loves us, not because he can't.

If he was omnipotent he could do both, there is something he cannot do or will not do. He is either not omnipotent or he is Malevolent.

Are you putting fingers in your ears and shouting LALLAALLA?

I just told you - he can, but he doesn't want to. How can he slave us and NOT slave us at the same time? That's like saying something can be hot and cold at the same time.

Is it so hard to understand, that he just doesn't WANT TO slave us? He won't stop us, but it doesn't mean he won't punish people doing bad things in the afterlife. After all, he warned them.

I know, it sounds like a paradox. But there are tons of paradoxes around things impossible to understand by a human mind. Remember that most of the paradoxes can be "fixed" by changing the laws of physics. Stone too heavy? Disable the gravity. Burrito too hot to eat? Place it in a heat-resistant material. Aaand so on, so on.

"Slave" is not a verb. Enslave.

So you say that god stopping people from doing bad things would be slavery? And slavery is cruel?
According to you, if god forced us to follow his will that would be akin to slavery. But if you are a true believer, god does force you into following his will. Rather than telling you what to do before you do it, he threatens you with eternal punishment if you go against him. If you really believe that sort of thing, you would absolutely never go against him.
A slave is not stopped from diobeying his master as soon as he thinks about it, but after he follows through on the diobedience, he is punished. Same thing is theoretically happening here with god.
God, then, allows evil to exist and clearly has no problems with threatening and coercing people to follow him. If he allows this evil and he is omnipotent, he is malevolent. And evil does not need to be evil actions by people, it can be pain and suffering caused by other things, like disease and natural disaster... which kill and cause the suffering of countless innocent people. Either he will not or cannot stop these from happening, making him either fallible or malevolent. (Or nonexistant).

And... if god was omnipotent and benevolent and wanted to avoid coercion or "slavery," why wouldn't he just create only people who would never disobey him?

You should all shut up. None of you can know what the others in this thread will think you mean when you use the word "God".

At least try qualifying your statements - Supreme Being, Creator, Saviour, Guardian, Source of Peace, The Way... add your own.

Enough of this blanket God crap.

1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/god
There are other definitions, this is the most common and most general.

Then you should have nothing to worry about. MRI's have never been able to proove anything. They've found neurotransmitters but have never known howthey work. Maybe you're not trying hard enough. And stop questioning my religion and my god. I have had enough of that for the past few years of my life. You people have made it harder to believe in him. What trouble does it cause people these days? If anything it makes people who do believe do good things. Is it really that big of a deal if we can have faith for something we don't need to be proven?

Why should religion and god not be questioned, just like anything else that people claim to be true?

What trouble does religion cause people these days? Have you read my other posts in this thread? Short answer: lots of trouble. One example: September 11.

September 11th was caused by muslim extremist. Suicide bombings and 72 virgins and killing others is nowhere in there muslim religion. Corrupt leaders that do not truelly believe in the religion in most cases use the religion to gain power.yes, even my Christianity has been taken advantage of for power. But does it not tell people to never kill, never steal, in all be good? How does that cause problems? It's telling others to be good.

Religion should not be questioned because no matter what arguement we make, yours always seems to go back to "where's the proof?" There is plenty of proof that we don't see, or others that people choose to overlook, explaining them as mere quoincidences, overlooking miracles, trying to find explanations for emotions. Scientist explanation for emotion is more of a stretch than believing in God. If religion didn't exsist today, we would be a much darker world than we are now.

Now please, I'm done with this horrible topic, so stop questioning me.

 

[Tdc2182]

The main Argument is that Science means proof and Religion Means faith.
While both these are true in esne. You musnt seperate Siance from religion. Religion and science can co-existy, as long as religion is taken with a pinch of salt. I don't believe that god deffinately created the earths. I believe that evolution took place. But I stil believe in god. I choose to believe in the teachings of the bible, not the exact words of the Bible.

Anyone who demands proof, in my belief, needs to grow up and accept that people can believe in a god for the beterment of themselves.
Conversely anyone who believes in the exact words of the bible and compleatly throws away sciece, needs to learnt hat science makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Bible ever did.

Yes, this is how I live my life and people should read this post.

 

[jayhawk97]

September 11th was caused by muslim extremist. Suicide bombings and 72 virgins and killing others is nowhere in there muslim religion. Corrupt leaders that do not truelly believe in the religion in most cases use the religion to gain power.yes, even my Christianity has been taken advantage of for power. But does it not tell people to never kill, never steal, in all be good? How does that cause problems? It's telling others to be good.

Religion should not be questioned because no matter what arguement we make, yours always seems to go back to "where's the proof?" There is plenty of proof that we don't see, or others that people choose to overlook, explaining them as mere quoincidences, overlooking miracles, trying to find explanations for emotions. Scientist explanation for emotion is more of a stretch than believing in God. If religion didn't exsist today, we would be a much darker world than we are now.

Now please, I'm done with this horrible topic, so stop questioning me.

When you say that Christianity tells you not to kill, steal, etc you are ignoring the equal amount of morally reprehensible things in the Bible.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Lev 20:13

That is one of many examples. While you (I'm not sure what you think of this subject, but if you actually hate gays, then I'm referring to most non-fundamentalist Christians) may not believe that homosexuals should be killed or are not to be treated as equals, the Bible gives ample justification in the minds of people who practice hate. And there are verses promoting the hate of all sorts of things... women, other religions, etc.

The rules of not to kill, steal, etc are very good rules, but very simple ones and existed long before Christianity of Judaism. Hammurabi's code is an easy example, but rules like that existed long before. It's not like people before religion were all killing and stealing from everyone and then someone said "god said this," and they all said "oh, okay... now we'll stop." Those values existed in humans long before religion.

A (probably) majority of Muslims do not encourage carrying out jihad and suicide bombings, but in the minds of extremists and fundamentalists, the Koran and their religion offers plenty of "justification."

"The gardens of perpetuity, they shall enter them, rivers flowing beneath them, they shall have what they please. Thus does Allah reward those who guard against evil" Koran 16.31.

While most Muslims draw an alternate interpretation from material like this, or ignore it althogether, the fact remains that it is there in their religion and people can read it as telling them to kill any non-Muslim. When this is backed by the belief that it is the perfect word of the almighty, it can be a powerful thing.

The reason that arguments often go back to "where's the proof," is because there is no proof. The reason you don't want arguments to go there is because you can't answer it because there is no proof. Because you can't understand the neurological theories proposed to explain emotion (and nor can I, to their fullest extent), you say it's more of a stretch than a tribal Bronze age myth? Because the scientific theories on emotions (and lots of other things) are not fully developed means we should just quit and attribute things we don't fully understand to god? If we did that, we'd still be stuck in the Bronze age.

I have presented many instances of religion causing suffering, persecution, and death. There are countless others. Show me how religion has made the world a brighter place. I'm cool with people who believe and it makes them feel better and such, as long as they don't use that belief to persecute others, but this does not overrule the damage their same religions have done to humanity.

 

[Tdc2182]

September 11th was caused by muslim extremist. Suicide bombings and 72 virgins and killing others is nowhere in there muslim religion. Corrupt leaders that do not truelly believe in the religion in most cases use the religion to gain power.yes, even my Christianity has been taken advantage of for power. But does it not tell people to never kill, never steal, in all be good? How does that cause problems? It's telling others to be good.

Religion should not be questioned because no matter what arguement we make, yours always seems to go back to "where's the proof?" There is plenty of proof that we don't see, or others that people choose to overlook, explaining them as mere quoincidences, overlooking miracles, trying to find explanations for emotions. Scientist explanation for emotion is more of a stretch than believing in God. If religion didn't exsist today, we would be a much darker world than we are now.

Now please, I'm done with this horrible topic, so stop questioning me.

When you say that Christianity tells you not to kill, steal, etc you are ignoring the equal amount of morally reprehensible things in the Bible.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Lev 20:13

That is one of many examples. While you (I'm not sure what you think of this subject, but if you actually hate gays, then I'm referring to most non-fundamentalist Christians) may not believe that homosexuals should be killed or are not to be treated as equals, the Bible gives ample justification in the minds of people who practice hate. And there are verses promoting the hate of all sorts of things... women, other religions, etc.

The rules of not to kill, steal, etc are very good rules, but very simple ones and existed long before Christianity of Judaism. Hammurabi's code is an easy example, but rules like that existed long before. It's not like people before religion were all killing and stealing from everyone and then someone said "god said this," and they all said "oh, okay... now we'll stop." Those values existed in humans long before religion.

A (probably) majority of Muslims do not encourage carrying out jihad and suicide bombings, but in the minds of extremists and fundamentalists, the Koran and their religion offers plenty of "justification."

"The gardens of perpetuity, they shall enter them, rivers flowing beneath them, they shall have what they please. Thus does Allah reward those who guard against evil" Koran 16.31.

While most Muslims draw an alternate interpretation from material like this, or ignore it althogether, the fact remains that it is there in their religion and people can read it as telling them to kill any non-Muslim. When this is backed by the belief that it is the perfect word of the almighty, it can be a powerful thing.

The reason that arguments often go back to "where's the proof," is because there is no proof. The reason you don't want arguments to go there is because you can't answer it because there is no proof. Because you can't understand the neurological theories proposed to explain emotion (and nor can I, to their fullest extent), you say it's more of a stretch than a tribal Bronze age myth? Because the scientific theories on emotions (and lots of other things) are not fully developed means we should just quit and attribute things we don't fully understand to god? If we did that, we'd still be stuck in the Bronze age.

I have presented many instances of religion causing suffering, persecution, and death. There are countless others. Show me how religion has made the world a brighter place. I'm cool with people who believe and it makes them feel better and such, as long as they don't use that belief to persecute others, but this does not overrule the damage their same religions have done to humanity.

The christian bible was taken and altered by the corrupt church in the early last millinium. Many Lines wear changed and it is beleived the homosexuality was one of them. I have nothing against gays. And I don't know if you've realized this but you have just called all christian, tribals. I am offended. Like an argument I have already made, prove that he does not exist. You can't. It's very nearly impossible. Religion has made the world a brighter place. We would have many more rapists, murderers, robbers, if they did not think there was a greater consequence for there crimes.

"Allah protects those who guard against evil" That says nowhere to kill. I do not put my support into any religion that supporst death.

There will always be people who are blinded. Blinded by science, blinded by religion. Also humans beings were the ones who made the bible, and not counting Jesus Christ, all made mistakes, and may have all had seperate views.

I have given you more than enough reason for my side of the argument, and until science can prove me wrong( which it can't) I will always beleive in my god. We are both of different minds, and we will both not be swayed so if you have any common decency you won't pursue this subject anymore.

 

[jayhawk97]

September 11th was caused by muslim extremist. Suicide bombings and 72 virgins and killing others is nowhere in there muslim religion. Corrupt leaders that do not truelly believe in the religion in most cases use the religion to gain power.yes, even my Christianity has been taken advantage of for power. But does it not tell people to never kill, never steal, in all be good? How does that cause problems? It's telling others to be good.

Religion should not be questioned because no matter what arguement we make, yours always seems to go back to "where's the proof?" There is plenty of proof that we don't see, or others that people choose to overlook, explaining them as mere quoincidences, overlooking miracles, trying to find explanations for emotions. Scientist explanation for emotion is more of a stretch than believing in God. If religion didn't exsist today, we would be a much darker world than we are now.

Now please, I'm done with this horrible topic, so stop questioning me.

When you say that Christianity tells you not to kill, steal, etc you are ignoring the equal amount of morally reprehensible things in the Bible.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Lev 20:13

That is one of many examples. While you (I'm not sure what you think of this subject, but if you actually hate gays, then I'm referring to most non-fundamentalist Christians) may not believe that homosexuals should be killed or are not to be treated as equals, the Bible gives ample justification in the minds of people who practice hate. And there are verses promoting the hate of all sorts of things... women, other religions, etc.

The rules of not to kill, steal, etc are very good rules, but very simple ones and existed long before Christianity of Judaism. Hammurabi's code is an easy example, but rules like that existed long before. It's not like people before religion were all killing and stealing from everyone and then someone said "god said this," and they all said "oh, okay... now we'll stop." Those values existed in humans long before religion.

A (probably) majority of Muslims do not encourage carrying out jihad and suicide bombings, but in the minds of extremists and fundamentalists, the Koran and their religion offers plenty of "justification."

"The gardens of perpetuity, they shall enter them, rivers flowing beneath them, they shall have what they please. Thus does Allah reward those who guard against evil" Koran 16.31.

While most Muslims draw an alternate interpretation from material like this, or ignore it althogether, the fact remains that it is there in their religion and people can read it as telling them to kill any non-Muslim. When this is backed by the belief that it is the perfect word of the almighty, it can be a powerful thing.

The reason that arguments often go back to "where's the proof," is because there is no proof. The reason you don't want arguments to go there is because you can't answer it because there is no proof. Because you can't understand the neurological theories proposed to explain emotion (and nor can I, to their fullest extent), you say it's more of a stretch than a tribal Bronze age myth? Because the scientific theories on emotions (and lots of other things) are not fully developed means we should just quit and attribute things we don't fully understand to god? If we did that, we'd still be stuck in the Bronze age.

I have presented many instances of religion causing suffering, persecution, and death. There are countless others. Show me how religion has made the world a brighter place. I'm cool with people who believe and it makes them feel better and such, as long as they don't use that belief to persecute others, but this does not overrule the damage their same religions have done to humanity.

The christian bible was taken and altered by the corrupt church in the early last millinium. Many Lines wear changed and it is beleived the homosexuality was one of them. I have nothing against gays. And I don't know if you've realized this but you have just called all christian, tribals. I am offended. Like an argument I have already made, prove that he does not exist. You can't. It's very nearly impossible. Religion has made the world a brighter place. We would have many more rapists, murderers, robbers, if they did not think there was a greater consequence for there crimes.

"Allah protects those who guard against evil" That says nowhere to kill. I do not put my support into any religion that supporst death.

There will always be people who are blinded. Blinded by science, blinded by religion. Also humans beings were the ones who made the bible, and not counting Jesus Christ, all made mistakes, and may have all had seperate views.

I have given you more than enough reason for my side of the argument, and until science can prove me wrong( which it can't) I will always beleive in my god. We are both of different minds, and we will both not be swayed so if you have any common decency you won't pursue this subject anymore.

-So you just said that the book which most of the Western world's population bases their life view on was altered by some people at some point? I haven't heard that particular claim and all it does is support that the book is not anywhere near the perfect word of god. It goes towards invalidating the accuracy of religion, and even if you cited that fact as true it wouldn't make much difference in this argument, as the fact remains that the religion, no matter how bastardized it is, inspires certain people to hate and to do violent things. Those fundamentalists would think your view of Christianity heretical and as wrong as you think theirs, and you would never be able to have a reasonable argument about it because it's all hogwash.

-I never called anyone a tribal. I said that what they believe is a tribal Bronze age myth. Which it is. If I accept an 18th century scientific discovery, that makes me neither a scientist nor from the 18th century.

-You still have not quantified how religion has made the world brighter, while I have shown that it always has and does contribute to hate, irrationality, and the destruction of innocent lives. You have nothing to back up your claim that there would be more crime without religion, and you're implying that the only thing stopping you (or many theists) from being criminals is the prospect of eternal punishment. You don't think people can simply develop good morals without being threatened? And if people didn't harbor delusions that life wasn't the only chance they'd ever get, maybe they'd value it more and the death penalty or wasting time away in prison would carry more weight, because anyone can contort religion and reality enough to support the comforting thought that they were in the right and will soon be in eternal paradise.

-Prove that Zeus, Odin, or Ra do not exist. Prove there is no invisible unicorn watching you as you read this right now, prove that there isn't a teapot orbiting the sun. You can't prove something to not exist, because if you could prove anything about it, it would exist. We can't prove anything about those things that I named and any number of possible things I could come up with, but common sense, logic, and scientific knowledge lead us to understand that they don't exist. If you had been taught from birth that invisible unicorns existed and that Zeus was a supreme deity that creates lightning, you would likely believe it and would not be convinced otherwise in face of reason.

-That's not the only, nor the worst, verse in the Koran on this subject. It proves my point entirely though. It is equally easy to interpret that as fairly benign like most people do, but can you not see how that exactly fits with the Islamic extremist and fundamentalist beliefs with a bit of spin doctoring, which people do to any verse in any holy book to suit their purposes?

-I love the throwing in of the "common decency" thing. How is me replying any less decent than the you making the reply to which I am replying? I guess I never heard the etiquette rule of "don't reply on a forum when the person you're discussing something with wants to get the last word."

 

[Tdc2182]

September 11th was caused by muslim extremist. Suicide bombings and 72 virgins and killing others is nowhere in there muslim religion. Corrupt leaders that do not truelly believe in the religion in most cases use the religion to gain power.yes, even my Christianity has been taken advantage of for power. But does it not tell people to never kill, never steal, in all be good? How does that cause problems? It's telling others to be good.

Religion should not be questioned because no matter what arguement we make, yours always seems to go back to "where's the proof?" There is plenty of proof that we don't see, or others that people choose to overlook, explaining them as mere quoincidences, overlooking miracles, trying to find explanations for emotions. Scientist explanation for emotion is more of a stretch than believing in God. If religion didn't exsist today, we would be a much darker world than we are now.

Now please, I'm done with this horrible topic, so stop questioning me.

When you say that Christianity tells you not to kill, steal, etc you are ignoring the equal amount of morally reprehensible things in the Bible.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Lev 20:13

That is one of many examples. While you (I'm not sure what you think of this subject, but if you actually hate gays, then I'm referring to most non-fundamentalist Christians) may not believe that homosexuals should be killed or are not to be treated as equals, the Bible gives ample justification in the minds of people who practice hate. And there are verses promoting the hate of all sorts of things... women, other religions, etc.

The rules of not to kill, steal, etc are very good rules, but very simple ones and existed long before Christianity of Judaism. Hammurabi's code is an easy example, but rules like that existed long before. It's not like people before religion were all killing and stealing from everyone and then someone said "god said this," and they all said "oh, okay... now we'll stop." Those values existed in humans long before religion.

A (probably) majority of Muslims do not encourage carrying out jihad and suicide bombings, but in the minds of extremists and fundamentalists, the Koran and their religion offers plenty of "justification."

"The gardens of perpetuity, they shall enter them, rivers flowing beneath them, they shall have what they please. Thus does Allah reward those who guard against evil" Koran 16.31.

While most Muslims draw an alternate interpretation from material like this, or ignore it althogether, the fact remains that it is there in their religion and people can read it as telling them to kill any non-Muslim. When this is backed by the belief that it is the perfect word of the almighty, it can be a powerful thing.

The reason that arguments often go back to "where's the proof," is because there is no proof. The reason you don't want arguments to go there is because you can't answer it because there is no proof. Because you can't understand the neurological theories proposed to explain emotion (and nor can I, to their fullest extent), you say it's more of a stretch than a tribal Bronze age myth? Because the scientific theories on emotions (and lots of other things) are not fully developed means we should just quit and attribute things we don't fully understand to god? If we did that, we'd still be stuck in the Bronze age.

I have presented many instances of religion causing suffering, persecution, and death. There are countless others. Show me how religion has made the world a brighter place. I'm cool with people who believe and it makes them feel better and such, as long as they don't use that belief to persecute others, but this does not overrule the damage their same religions have done to humanity.

The christian bible was taken and altered by the corrupt church in the early last millinium. Many Lines wear changed and it is beleived the homosexuality was one of them. I have nothing against gays. And I don't know if you've realized this but you have just called all christian, tribals. I am offended. Like an argument I have already made, prove that he does not exist. You can't. It's very nearly impossible. Religion has made the world a brighter place. We would have many more rapists, murderers, robbers, if they did not think there was a greater consequence for there crimes.

"Allah protects those who guard against evil" That says nowhere to kill. I do not put my support into any religion that supporst death.

There will always be people who are blinded. Blinded by science, blinded by religion. Also humans beings were the ones who made the bible, and not counting Jesus Christ, all made mistakes, and may have all had seperate views.

I have given you more than enough reason for my side of the argument, and until science can prove me wrong( which it can't) I will always beleive in my god. We are both of different minds, and we will both not be swayed so if you have any common decency you won't pursue this subject anymore.

-So you just said that the book which most of the Western world's population bases their life view on was altered by some people at some point? I haven't heard that particular claim and all it does is support that the book is not anywhere near the perfect word of god. It goes towards invalidating the accuracy of religion, and even if you cited that fact as true it wouldn't make much difference in this argument, as the fact remains that the religion, no matter how bastardized it is, inspires certain people to hate and to do violent things. Those fundamentalists would think your view of Christianity heretical and as wrong as you think theirs, and you would never be able to have a reasonable argument about it because it's all hogwash.

-I never called anyone a tribal. I said that what they believe is a tribal Bronze age myth. Which it is. If I accept an 18th century scientific discovery, that makes me neither a scientist nor from the 18th century.

-You still have not quantified how religion has made the world brighter, while I have shown that it always has and does contribute to hate, irrationality, and the destruction of innocent lives. You have nothing to back up your claim that there would be more crime without religion, and you're implying that the only thing stopping you (or many theists) from being criminals is the prospect of eternal punishment. You don't think people can simply develop good morals without being threatened? And if people didn't harbor delusions that life wasn't the only chance they'd ever get, maybe they'd value it more and the death penalty or wasting time away in prison would carry more weight, because anyone can contort religion and reality enough to support the comforting thought that they were in the right and will soon be in eternal paradise.

-Prove that Zeus, Odin, or Ra do not exist. Prove there is no invisible unicorn watching you as you read this right now, prove that there isn't a teapot orbiting the sun. You can't prove something to not exist, because if you could prove anything about it, it would exist. We can't prove anything about those things that I named and any number of possible things I could come up with, but common sense, logic, and scientific knowledge lead us to understand that they don't exist. If you had been taught from birth that invisible unicorns existed and that Zeus was a supreme deity that creates lightning, you would likely believe it and would not be convinced otherwise in face of reason.

-That's not the only, nor the worst, verse in the Koran on this subject. It proves my point entirely though. It is equally easy to interpret that as fairly benign like most people do, but can you not see how that exactly fits with the Islamic extremist and fundamentalist beliefs with a bit of spin doctoring, which people do to any verse in any holy book to suit their purposes?

-I love the throwing in of the "common decency" thing. How is me replying any less decent than the you making the reply to which I am replying? I guess I never heard the etiquette rule of "don't reply on a forum when the person you're discussing something with wants to get the last word."

I could go on about this but I won't. The difference between your comments being less decent than mine is that you have nothing to lose by being convinced by my side. You gain a religion, you have something to look forword to after death. My life would change dramatically if I lose faith. There is no reason for you to pursue the subject, you don't believe in god, we get it, I'm not trying to change that. Everyday on television we here skeptics with new information on how god is not real. It's hard enough.

Religion has it's ups and it's downs. But mostly it's ups. When scientist discover cures and new wonders thats great. But when they actively go out and try to disprove god? Alter to what some people is there entire lives? Tell me how that is good? I don't give a shit about having the last comment. The common decency thing is maybe you should think about what your effect your comment will have on someone. I think that falls under common decency don't you?