I Can Be a Computer Engineer Barbie Sends Girls the Opposite Message - Update

[Karadalis]

*facepalm* The reason why women dont like to enter the software industry is because its a high risk, low yield job that will see you out of a job more often then not as soon as a project is finished.

It certainly is not a book about barbie, or some scientist wearing a somewhat unapropiate shirt (for the occasion of the interview anyways, just a tad unprofesional but else completly harmless) thats keeping women out of these kinds of jobs, its because they are pretty shitty unsecure jobs if you take a closer look.

To be honest, especialy as a gaming dev, the job of a programmer sucks balls if you work on AAA projects. We all heard the stories about horrible crunchtimes and mass offlays of coders once a certain milestone is reached.

The only people who have any creative input on a project are the higher ups, and chances are you will be layed off sooner then you will have a chance to become one of these persons...

Improve the working conditions for game devs and perhaps you will see a raise in female interest for the job. As it stands... its an ungratefull, uncreative, poorly paid job that you have to sacrifice alot for and im amazed that there are even so many people left that want to do it.. male or female. But hey... whatever pays the bills i guess.

 

[the December King]

*facepalm* The reason why women dont like to enter the software industry is because its a high risk, low yield job that will see you out of a job more often then not as soon as a project is finished.

It certainly is not a book about barbie, or some scientist wearing a somewhat unapropiate shirt (for the occasion of the interview anyways, just a tad unprofesional but else completly harmless) thats keeping women out of these kinds of jobs, its because they are pretty shitty unsecure jobs if you take a closer look.

To be honest, especialy as a gaming dev, the job of a programmer sucks balls if you work on AAA projects. We all heard the stories about horrible crunchtimes and mass offlays of coders once a certain milestone is reached.

The only people who have any creative input on a project are the higher ups, and chances are you will be layed off sooner then you will have a chance to become one of these persons...

Improve the working conditions for game devs and perhaps you will see a raise in female interest for the job. As it stands... its an ungratefull, uncreative, poorly paid job that you have to sacrifice alot for and im amazed that there are even so many people left that want to do it.. male or female. But hey... whatever pays the bills i guess.

I think you're right, making games in reality can be very unglamorous and rife with drudgery. I'm mainly a freelance VFX artist/compositor, mostly for movies, and it's a very similar tune- just that the pay fluctuates more wildly for the abuse. I'm currently working for a company owned by a woman, and I do see a lot of women in middle management positions, but rarely down in the trenches, so to speak.

On the other hand, my lovely better half is a computer engineer, with a government position, benefits and steady pay, and makes me jealous!

 

[Alexander Kirby]

snip

If I'm honest here I don't own any shirts or anything depicting nude people, mostly because I think them gaudy and I'd be embarrassed of other people seeing it. The thing is, I only think that way because of the way society presents such things. I wouldn't be typing this right now if some people had respectfully stated to him that they'd rather he didn't wear it (fair enough; it's their opinion), but it was very sad the way he was publicly discriminated against over something that people were reading into, when as far as we know he may well be a lovely person if you met him.

Unprofessional, gaudy, unnecessary, it may well have been these things, but then again I also see a man who was discriminated against because of what he wore, and not only that but discrimination that went completely out of proportion, demonizing him. Women complain when they're discriminated against for their clothing, but heck, as I see it they have the better deal (I'd totally wear a skirt if I wouldn't get publicly ridiculed for it) not to mention I've seen women porting items depicting mostly naked men, and I'm yet to see a public campaign against that. I agree with you, but I hope you can see I think this was all a bit unfortunate.

 

[ryukage_sama]

If I'm honest here I don't own any shirts or anything depicting nude people, mostly because I think them gaudy and I'd be embarrassed of other people seeing it. The thing is, I only think that way because of the way society presents such things. I wouldn't be typing this right now if some people had respectfully stated to him that they'd rather he didn't wear it (fair enough; it's their opinion), but it was very sad the way he was publicly discriminated against over something that people were reading into, when as far as we know he may well be a lovely person if you met him.

Unprofessional, gaudy, unnecessary, it may well have been these things, but then again I also see a man who was discriminated against because of what he wore, and not only that but discrimination that went completely out of proportion, demonizing him. Women complain when they're discriminated against for their clothing, but heck, as I see it they have the better deal (I'd totally wear a skirt if I wouldn't get publicly ridiculed for it) not to mention I've seen women porting items depicting mostly naked men, and I'm yet to see a public campaign against that. I agree with you, but I hope you can see I think this was all a bit unfortunate.

There is an important distinction between the consequences of one's actions and being discriminated against. In Dr. Taylor's case he faced wide spread criticism for his decision to represent himself and by extension the entire project that he was responsible for managing as being insensitive unconcerned about the feelings of women on his staff, as well as displaying a lack of concern regarding how the world as a whole would perceive his project. The reason this is causing such large waves is because Dr. Taylor wasn't some random person you've seen. He was one of the top people on this historic project. This was not an example of a random person on the street who was asked about the comet project. If you saw a woman who was a the manager of a government project who showed up to a press conference wearing a shirt with an image of Chris Hemsworth shirtless, you'd have a reasonable objection. But some women you've seen randomly wearing non-professional attire is not applicable to this discussion. It's fine if Dr. Taylor has his home covered in Frank Frazetta art. Nobody would care. This is not discrimination. The criticism he faces is a consequence of his choices which were entirely in his control and the fault of no one else. He was right to make an apology, and we should use this event as a teachable moment to enlighten both professional and academic circles that we need to make a conscious effort to keep sexism, both passive and directed, out of our work.

Edit:[link]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/fashion/the-lessons-of-a-rosetta-scientists-shirt.html?_r=0[/link]
This article does a good job of breaking down the significance or lack thereof of the event.

 

[ryukage_sama]

*snip*

Oh please, if you can't see this as a complete and utter overreaction to what amounts to a fairly benign shirt then you really need to check your priorities. The man's job has very little to do with what he wears, I don't see how a zip up hoodie could be considered "less professional" then a shirt that has women on it. If this was a matter of professional attire, he wouldn't be wearing such casual clothing in the first place. Would literally anyone have said anything if he had worn a gaudy T-shirt with some other pop-culture iconography? There is no sexism at play here, passive or directed, and if women are so sensitive that something as inconsequential as a shirt that has women wearing bikinis on it is going to deter them from entering entering such a field then they clearly need some growing up to do for them to consider choosing a career of any kind really.

What's the overreaction exactly? Lots of people talking about it? Too many people having said that he shouldn't have worn a sexualized depiction of women as decoration while appearing before an international audience on a historic event? None of the news articles or editorials I have read or referenced here have said anything beyond why he shouldn't have worn that. I never suggested that he ought to have done anything more than apologize for the thoughtless offense.

I'm sorry that you can't see or understand how other people can and are made uncomfortable by depictions of people with whom they identify.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It's Barbie, her very presence already sends a mixed message - "You can be whoever you want to be, so long as you look like this".

 

[Amaror]

Barbie starts out at breakfast stating that she's designing a game but when questioned by her sister Skipper, she admits, "I'm only creating the design idea, I'll need Steven and Brian's help to turn it into a real game"

And what is wrong with this? No, seriously. *sigh* This pretty much explains why you don't see so many female characters because if you're going to write one she better damned well be wonder woman who can do everything that needs to be done without help.. unless it is from another woman.

Geez it's weird that that is actuyally a fair and accurate depiction of what a woman would face working in the field. You are going to need help (everyone needs help) and in a currently male dominated field well there's a good bet your peers and co-workers are going to be male...

What's wrong with this is that the book is titles "I can be a computer engineer", with the main character not actually being able to engineer anything on a computer.
It basically goes:
"I can be a computer engineer!" "No, you can't because your a girl. Get some boys to do it for you."

It would be perfectly fine if barbie was the programmer and asked her friends steven and brian to do the art and sound for her or something. She doesn't need to be able to do everything, just what she is advertised as doing on the freakin title.

 

[Amaror]

Uhm have you ever noticed the credits at the end of games? You ever notice that more or less every game more complicated than COmmander Keen has more than one programmer...I mean seriously... you see it as her saying that she can't I see it as delegation . She didn't say I'm going to have Steve and Brian do it for me no she said she would need Steve and Brian's HELP. Knowing when you need help is the sign of a well adjusted and sensible individual.

Uhm have you still not read the title of the book? It's "I can be a computer engineer". And in it Barbie is not computer engineering. That is the problem, i don't know why that's so hard for you to understand.
She could have gotten help with her projekt, whatever it is, and still work on the projekt herself. The problem is she doesn't do that. She doesn't actually work as a computer engineer herself. If the game were titled "I can be a project manager", then it would have been entirely fine that she delegates ALL her work to the boys. But it isn't. It's titled "I can be a computer engineer", were barbie can't actually be a computer engineer and that's the entire problem.

 

[Amaror]

So basically the sin of the book (which I have not read, sexist drivel that it is) is that the writer mayhaps had no clue as to what computer engineering entails?

Or perhaps they thought the idea of a book where barbie debugs code and traces stack faults may have been a bit too well boring. I mean we know what it's like but I don't think the target audience will appreciate the struggle of getting a module of code from a (x^2) to a (10) and the elation that comes from that.

The sin of the book comes from suggesting that the only way a girl could do work with computers is to get boys to help her.
Whether that misconception comes from the author being sexist, clueless about computer engineering or afraid of his book becoming booring doesn't matter. What matters is the books itself.