I don't understand tipping culture...

May 29, 2011
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GundamSentinel said:
Use_Imagination_here said:
OT: Here's a fun drinking game, anytime you read "tip" pretend it means very slight intercourse. Everytime it would get the poster a warning take a drink!

DISCLAIMER: DO NOT ACTUALLY DO THIS YOU WILL DIE.

GundamSentinel said:
It really depends on where you're from. Where I live, people don't depend on tips to make a living (enforced minimum wage FTW!). My tips for competent service are generally just a generous rounding. Only good service gets a proper tip (screw percentages, I'll decide for myself what is reasonable).

When I'm in a foreign country and not accustomed to local tipping customs, maybe I come across as a dick, but then again, I wouldn't be if the country had proper wages legislation. I refuse to be guilted into giving tips to people just doing their jobs.
It seems to me that refusing to do something purely because the government's at fault for it being necessary is a load of shit. If waitresses need your tip to feed themselves then you bloody well tip, it doesn't matter if they're "just doing their job" OR if the government should make new laws, the point is that it DOESN'T and they DO. And honestly you're not refusing to tip because you want to make a political statement, you just don't want to.

But in countries where waitresses make minimum wage in some restaurants the manager pretty much just takes the tip (just take the tip, just for a second, just to see how it feeeeels) and honestly if you make minimum wage, fuck you I've worked in worse jobs for minimum wage and I didn't get a tip.
Let me get this straight: my primary thought about any job is, if you're doing your job, you ought to get paid properly for it. If your payment depends on people's generosity, that's just wrong. You'd basically be a part-time beggar. In most western countries there is something like a minimum wage that you ought to get for your work. And as other people have said, even from countries with a strong tipping culture, if you don't get enough from tips, your boss should cover the rest until you hit minimum wage.

If that isn't the case, there's something wrong with your job and you should indeed blame your government (or your boss) for not properly enforcing policy. Or do something about it yourselves.
So if there's something wrong with someone's government it is not your responsibility to work within that, it's the job of the 20 year old with no time, connections or political experience to campaign against it and change the system. And if you do work within it you are enforcing it.

Sorry, but that's just insane to me. If they do indeed get minimum wage anyway thats fine, if they don't and you are aware of it then just pay the tip.
 

immortalfrieza

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DarkRyter said:
No, you aren't (unless you're not an American). That's what I'm trying to tell you. You are the one who is wrong.
So if I wasn't an American it wouldn't be an issue. Sigh... that's my point! The only reason you even CARE whether I or anyone else tips or not is because you were raised in a society that considers it wrong not to tip. If you weren't you wouldn't even give a damn, hell, you might even be praising my postition. That, and the fact that this DOESN'T happen in most other countries and it works just fine is all the evidence needed to invalidate any argument anyone could possibly make in favor of tipping.

Patrons are entirely within their power to fire their server. It's called requesting a different server. Or just leaving the restaurant. People refuse to pay for things all the damn time.
And I can request a different mechanic or head to another dealership or refuse to pay because they did a crappy job, I still am not considered a dick if I don't tip them. This whole "Servers work for the Patrons" idea is just a very poor justification (and one that completely ignores the facts at that) to keep tipping because that's what everybody has always done. It doesn't make any logical or even moral sense but everybody still does it. The whole thing 3 logical fallacies in one.
1. Appeal to popularity, tipping is good and it's a dick move not to do it because everybody does it.
2. Appeal to tradition, tipping is good because we've always done things that way.
3. Appeal to consequences, tipping is good because servers won't get enough money to live off of if we don't.

Ugh, We're never gonna resolve this. We can't get over this one chasm in our arguments.

Me: When you tip, you are paying your server for their service.

You: You pay your server for their service when you pay the bill. A tip is culturally enforced bonus.

Both of us: The thing I am saying is a fact.
Of course we're never going to resolve this, that would require you to look past your cultural bias and actually admit that you're wrong, but since "tipping is good" "not tipping is bad" has been hammered into you for so long, you'll never do that no matter how obvious I make it.
 

immortalfrieza

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Use_Imagination_here said:
"Those servers have nobody else to blame but themselves for the fact that they aren't able to live off their wages." Well yeah, except you know, the people who are ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE.

Really? Twenty year olds who couldn't even have influenced any sort of policy when these laws were made (because they were pre teens) are at fault for the economic system of their country. People without any experience or time or idea about how to even go about it (and you don't either btw) should risk their jobs and in the current economy to fix this system. If there's anything at all wrong with your job it's your fault, and it's your job to fix, and if I force myself to work within it I'm aiding the system?

Ok. If you genuinely believe that then Ok. I completely disagree with you but hey, not really a point to the argument
There were plenty of servers already doing the job back when the laws that allowed this crappy system that could have done something about it, but they didn't and the ones now don't give enough of a damn to do anything now.

Servers could have rallied together and fought to have the laws changed, their wages increased, and formed Unions, and so on anytime between the time that their employers started toying with the motion that their servers could just live off tips and so they don't have to pay them much of anything and now. Serving isn't the first job nor the last where this has and does happen, even with 20 something year olds. There's plenty they could have and can do, but nobody is willing to bother. Servers are just much at fault for their situation in this country as their employers are, if not more. OF COURSE their bosses are going to try and screw their employees over as much as they can, that's true of ANY business, but if the employees don't care to do anything about it, then those employees deserve the crap that comes their way.

Yes, thank you wise internet person, than you for explaining what I already said.
Actually, you haven't said that. Employers are legally allowed to pay servers much less than minimum wage, in some cases nothing, and servers have to get most if not all of their salary from tips. The service industry isn't the only job where this is allowed. Technically, employers are required to cover the difference if the tips don't cover minimum wage, but that requires the server to report that fact, no doubt an incredible hassle, and since servers are a dime a dozen employers can and usually do just fire any server that tattles on them and hires the next guy who won't.

I don't tip for anything other than exceptional service for 4 reasons:
1. I realize I am getting ripped off by doing so.
2. I realize I would be supporting to this screwed up system if I did.
3. I realize I am doing more harm to these people than good if I tip.
4. By tipping "just because" I am encouraging servers to do only a passable job because they know they're going to get tipped regardless of how good of a job they do. There's no motivation for them to do any better.
 

The Material Sheep

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Nov 12, 2009
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immortalfrieza said:
Use_Imagination_here said:
"Those servers have nobody else to blame but themselves for the fact that they aren't able to live off their wages." Well yeah, except you know, the people who are ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE.

Really? Twenty year olds who couldn't even have influenced any sort of policy when these laws were made (because they were pre teens) are at fault for the economic system of their country. People without any experience or time or idea about how to even go about it (and you don't either btw) should risk their jobs and in the current economy to fix this system. If there's anything at all wrong with your job it's your fault, and it's your job to fix, and if I force myself to work within it I'm aiding the system?

Ok. If you genuinely believe that then Ok. I completely disagree with you but hey, not really a point to the argument
There were plenty of servers already doing the job back when the laws that allowed this crappy system that could have done something about it, but they didn't and the ones now don't give enough of a damn to do anything now.

Servers could have rallied together and fought to have the laws changed, their wages increased, and formed Unions, and so on anytime between the time that their employers started toying with the motion that their servers could just live off tips and so they don't have to pay them much of anything and now. Serving isn't the first job nor the last where this has and does happen, even with 20 something year olds. There's plenty they could have and can do, but nobody is willing to bother. Servers are just much at fault for their situation in this country as their employers are, if not more. OF COURSE their bosses are going to try and screw their employees over as much as they can, that's true of ANY business, but if the employees don't care to do anything about it, then those employees deserve the crap that comes their way.

Yes, thank you wise internet person, than you for explaining what I already said.
Actually, you haven't said that. Employers are legally allowed to pay servers much less than minimum wage, in some cases nothing, and servers have to get most if not all of their salary from tips. The service industry isn't the only job where this is allowed. Technically, employers are required to cover the difference if the tips don't cover minimum wage, but that requires the server to report that fact, no doubt an incredible hassle, and since servers are a dime a dozen employers can and usually do just fire any server that tattles on them and hires the next guy who won't.

I don't tip for anything other than exceptional service for 4 reasons:
1. I realize I am getting ripped off by doing so.
2. I realize I would be supporting to this screwed up system if I did.
3. I realize I am doing more harm to these people than good if I tip.
4. By tipping "just because" I am encouraging servers to do only a passable job because they know they're going to get tipped regardless of how good of a job they do. There's no motivation for them to do any better.
All this sounds like an awful moral justification to yourself to attempt to save ten bucks here and there when you go out. No one said you ever had to tip well, and a server knows if they do a good job they can usually expect a better tip. If someone was an atrocious server, I totally get not tipping them. They didn't do their job, you shouldn't have to pay extra for that. The tip is merely the default pay.

Whats more interesting though is that if the employers didn't allow for tips, the price would just come out of your food anyway, so you'd just being paying the extra 10% in a concealed gratuity anyway. Since your not planning on taking any real stance against this "problem" anyway, I just find your reasoning to be more aligned towards not paying people for their service, than actually having any real principle on the matter.
 

DarkRyter

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Dec 15, 2008
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immortalfrieza said:
And I can request a different mechanic or head to another dealership or refuse to pay because they did a crappy job, I still am not considered a dick if I don't tip them. This whole "Servers work for the Patrons" idea is just a very poor justification (and one that completely ignores the facts at that) to keep tipping because that's what everybody has always done. It doesn't make any logical or even moral sense but everybody still does it. The whole thing 3 logical fallacies in one.
1. Appeal to popularity, tipping is good and it's a dick move not to do it because everybody does it.
2. Appeal to tradition, tipping is good because we've always done things that way.
3. Appeal to consequences, tipping is good because servers won't get enough money to live off of if we don't.
Yes, these are fallacies, but I'm not saying those are the reasons to tip.

You don't tip someone because society says so, you tip someone because you pay people who do work for you.

Servers in other countries do fine without the tipping system, this is true. But Americans do fine with the tipping system. You know why American servers don't bother changing the system? They make more in the tip system. They can dodge taxes. They have a real motivation to work harder, because they system allows them to actually make more when they do better.

No one's telling you to tip because that's what society does. Society tips because it works.

Let me ask you a question, when you eat at a restaurant, do you believe that the waiter is doing work for you?
 

Kaxbe

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Jun 4, 2013
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When I'm stateside, I always tip. I worked in food service before and it sucks. Most restaurants pay under the minimum wage because tips are "expected" to fill up the rest, which, surprisingly, they do not. And that's not even going into restaurants that pool the flippin tips.

Overseas, though, and to clarify I'm talking when I visit the "homeland" or other Asian countries, I generally don't tip. Their restaurants actually tend to pay enough that tips are not needed, not to mention that the culture there is so different than American culture that they don't need tips as some sort of incentive to give good service.
 

DjinnFor

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Nov 20, 2009
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immortalfrieza said:
DarkRyter said:
No, you aren't (unless you're not an American). That's what I'm trying to tell you. You are the one who is wrong.
So if I wasn't an American it wouldn't be an issue. Sigh... that's my point! The only reason you even CARE whether I or anyone else tips or not is because you were raised in a society that considers it wrong not to tip.
No, the reason why people in America and Canada care about tips is because, in both countries, servers are literally paid less than they are supposed to be legally required to be paid because restaurants lobbied for exemptions to minimum wage legislation by arguing that servers made enough on tips to cover the difference. While all employers have to ensure that, after tips, employees make the federal minimum, in many states you do NOT have to match the state minimum (if higher than the federal). Again, thanks to the lobbying.

Whether the tipping culture existed in North America or not, you'd still have to pay it anyways, because minimum wage legislation would start being enforced and the menu prices would rise. In fact, you'd have to pay even more. Think of it this way: at least in these countries you DO have the option of stiffing your waitress of half their hourly paycheck if the service is THAT bad.

In other countries, you don't have that privilege. But, with such privileges comes responsibility: when you hold half their paycheck in your hands at the end of the meal, you're expected to give it to them if you received the service you expected or wanted.
 

akai

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Aug 23, 2013
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I never understood how important tipping was (even though I tipped people regularly) until I started working as a waitress myself. My wage was $4.50, so you can understand how much every tip counted, and luckily, 99% of my customers tipped me. For those of you out there who don't understand the tipping culture, let me put it this way: as a waitress, you are constantly under pressure: both the guests and your manager expect you to work at the speed of light, but if the bartender and the kitchen staff are too slow to prepare the drinks/food, nobody is going to yell at them, the customers will think you're the one who's slow. If the food doesn't taste good, they'll blame you; if the drink is not up to their standards, they'll blame you, and this will be reflected in your tip. There are times when you have to serve so many people at the same time that you're literally running all over the place trying to deliver all the orders but the customers are rarely aware of it. They have no idea how many people you are actually serving, plus there's always a bunch of sidework in the kitchen and/or behind the bar and you have to do all of those things at the same time. On top of that, the managers always demand crazy-high sales from you, so the environment is really competitive. At least that was my experience, I worked in the US, I don't know what it's like in other countries, but I'm sure it's more or less similar. So, in my opinion, you should definitively spare some money on the server's tip, it will mean a lot to them and don't forget they don't get to keep all of it, bouncers and bartenders get their share of that tip.
 

Apl_J

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Jun 16, 2011
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How on earth was this debated for 10 pages? In the States, tipping is unarguably necessary for servers (/they're not called waiters anymore), and here's why:

In the states, employers are allowed to pay waitstaff less than minimum wage; the average is 2.13/hour and the most I've seen was 5.00/hour. As a reference, minimum wage is 7.25 in most states. If a server doesn't make over minimum wage in tips, the employer has to cover the difference. However, restaurant budgets do not account for that, and the server will be fired for it. At worse, not tipping can cause your server to lose their job.

Servers live off their tips, and in exchange, food prices are cheaper than in other countries. In addition, U.S. waitstaff are more attentive and accommodating on average than in other countries. Especially in Europe, the guest is expected to call over their server and ask for things in most cases (that is a personal account, I've been to Paris, London, and Amsterdam). In the states, servers devote time to each table and are quicker with providing service even when you don't ask for something.

15-20% is the average, but it is ultimately up to the guest. You are expected to tip, and in return good servers will provide you excellent service and even freebies if they know their way around or are friendly with the cooks/bartenders. On the flip side, a frequent no-tipper can and will get blacklisted from some establishments or can be provided intentionally bad service or food. Yes, that does happen and yes, servers remember your face when you don't tip.

As said before, the worst case scenario for not tipping is the server losing his or her job, but a slew of other things can make a server's life miserable when guests don't tip. Most restaurants require than a server "tip out" the support staff, which are food runners, bartenders, etc. Even without the proper tip, the server is still required to share a percentage of the bill total for that shift, so an unlucky shift can actually lose the server money.

As complicated and backward as it is, there definitely are advantages to American style food service, but its easy to completely shirk their efforts. They can end up making loads of money depending on their skill, but can end up making around the same amount as a fast foodie with triple the work. Its a silly system, but by no means should you punish the individual server just because you don't agree with how they're paid.