I just watched Capitalisam.A love story....Why the fuck don't you do something about it?

[TheXRatedDodo]

It's because people get it into their plebeian heads that Socialism=Communism, Communism=Evil and Capitalism>Socialism, people don't want to mess with things

Yes your exactly right! Communism is the best form of government... on paper. In real life though it never really worked well for anybody not ruling the country.

The same can be said of Capitalism. The world elite get the majority of the money while the real people have to either live in poverty or sacrifice their ideals and work for corrupt corporations to make any headway.

Please get your information from someone else other than Michael Moore, go read a book about it. The difference between Capitalism and Socialism is that Capitalism provides great economic growth. In 1820 to 1998 the world economy grew 50-fold in capitalist regions like Europe and US. Capitalism also provides more freedom within our own economy and allows people to organize their own economy which provides a better environment for entrepreneurs. Socialism on the other had endorses a planned economy, which was similar to what the United States did during WW1 and 2 with war bonds... do you want to have an economy in which you always use war bonds? Other things like personal property would be viewed as means of production and would have no place in a Socialistic society. Don't kid yourself that there is a perfect system out there because there?s not. Even Capitalism has some major flaws, but its the best we have and we have been making it work since the 1800's at least. Just remember as long as humans have created it, it will always be flawed.

Fuck Michael Moore dude.
And do try not to be so condescending. Nothing I said has any dispute with anything you have just stated. But unlike you, I live in the real world, where the majority of people I know get fucked by Capitalism on a daily basis whether they apply themselves to the system wholeheartedly or otherwise.
And I said nothing about believing there is a perfect system out there, but I also refuse to believe that a system that practically begs people to indulge unchecked greed is the best we have, and so long as people accept that this is all there is and all there could be, nothing will change.

 

[Antari]

I wouldn't trust anything Michael Moore says. Pretty much for the reasons people have already stated.

Do admit its mostly for shock value, but some of the stuff he lets you know is pretty messed up.

Do companies really take out life insurance on their own employees?

Well, I know I have life insurance through my job, but I think that's for my own benefit. It pays a certain amount to whomever I declare. Been a long time since I looked at the policy. I'm not sure if it's only applicable if I die at work or not. Then again, I have my own life insurance anyway.

Do admit its mostly for shock value, but some of the stuff he lets you know is pretty messed up.

Do companies really take out life insurance on their own employees?

Companies certainly have life insurance for very valuable employees. If a CFO or Actuary dies, the business could be significantly hampered for a lengthy period of time. I've heard of "important employee" life insurance up to 1.5 million. I don't see what's wrong with that.

I understand the need for life insurance in certain jobs, getting the money paid out to your family/a charity or beneficiary is above board and all well and good. But in the film, the company was getting the life insurance paid to them and not the relatives. I'm not big in knowledge on the law, but that one is messed up.

Or was that just Moore attempting to grab the audience?

That sounds highly suspect and likely illegal. Though it may depend on the company, the person, and the job. I don't know much about the legal code on that kind of thing.

Its perfectly legal for your employer to "Bet" an insurance company that you will die while working for them. While your in their employ your technically an asset. Assets get insured. Its totally legal. And more widely practiced than you'd think.

 

[The Lost Big Boss]

Havn't watched it, I am pretty tired of Michal Moore.

You can also watch "The Inside Job", which also is about the financial crisis. Its pretty good.

This. "The Inside Job" is a great movie that breaks everything down, and shows how fucked we really are. Michael Moore's stuff is good, but it is always over dramatized to make people get all angry and ruffled.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

It's because people get it into their plebeian heads that Socialism=Communism, Communism=Evil and Capitalism>Socialism, people don't want to mess with things

Yes your exactly right! Communism is the best form of government... on paper.

Not even that. You can clearly see it will not work without having to put it into practice.

Im seriously tired of kids who keep stating communism will not work just BECAUSE. Please, at least put some effort into your post and explain why you think it wouldnt work. Hell, im not even what you would call a communist per se, it still pisses me off.

I dont know about you, maybe you actually put some thought into the matter, but a lot of people nowadays seem to say communism would never work because they heard some "expert" say it on TV or they overheard their parents say it and want to appear cool.

Consider this:

You have a class with 10 people. They are all given an assignment worth 100 points. The professor decides that he will average the grades and give everyone the same.
Suppose everyone else got a 90. If you put in no effort and didn?t turn in an assignment, that?s an 81% for everyone. In other words, a drastic drop.

Now multiply the same situation to 100 students. Same grade that everyone got (Again, just to make the math simple). 99 students getting a 90. If you got at least a 90, everyone gets a 90. If you don?t turn in anything, that?s an 89.1% for everyone. Not much of a drop

Now go up into the thousands. Same situation applies. What you do has very little bearing on what you get in the large scale. When it enters the hundreds of millions, it?s easy to see why people feel the need to put in less of an effort. People think to themselves ?Why should I put in effort? It barely affects me." "Communistic government will also ultimately fail - because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed."

This isn?t a perfect analogy, I admit. But it does illustrate a point.

 

[Staskala]

Please get your information from someone else other than Michael Moore, go read a book about it. The difference between Capitalism and Socialism is that Capitalism provides great economic growth. In 1820 to 1998 the world economy grew 50-fold in capitalist regions like Europe and US. Capitalism also provides more freedom within our own economy and allows people to organize their own economy which provides a better environment for entrepreneurs. Socialism on the other had endorses a planned economy, which was similar to what the United States did during WW1 and 2 with war bonds... do you want to have an economy in which you always use war bonds? Other things like personal property would be viewed as means of production and would have no place in a Socialistic society. Don't kid yourself that there is a perfect system out there because there?s not. Even Capitalism has some major flaws, but its the best we have and we have been making it work since the 1800's at least. Just remember as long as humans have created it, it will always be flawed.

I'm sorry, but most of Europe is partly socialist since the late 19th century, so I'd say you don't really know what you're talking about.

How many times does it have to be said?
Communism cares fuck all about the property of an individual, only "means of production" (that means factories, not your fucking PC) go into government ownership. Also, you're simply wrong if you think that the average worker has more power in a capitalist society today than they had in the days of council communism in the early Soviet Union.

Of course, everything went wrong at some point in time, hence why no one wants communism these days. Again, socialism != communism

 

[wilsontheterrible]

Watch the film and then come back to this thread...Done?OK WHY DO YOU LET THAT SHIT HAPPEN??

That question has a very long and very boring answer but I'll give it a whirl.

1) The SEC is a government agency that keeps track of accounting and financial practices and regulates banks and corporations. Par for the course the banks and corporations have much smarter, better trained accounting and financial experts that know how to circumvent those regulations. IE, the SEC is very bad at its job.

2) The U.S Federal Reserve Bank (the FED) (the one that loans to other banks and prints money) practices and encourages a practice called 'fractional reserve banking'. Basically that means that for every 100 dollars you put into the bank they keep, lets say, 1/10th or some other percentage in reserves and use the other 9/10th's to make investments, loans, and the like. This process is easily mishandled in the best of times but in the 90's the U.S government actively encouraged risky mortgage lending. This started with the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) of 1977 but snowballed to create the U.S housing bubble.

3) The FED dropped interest rates which fueled wild speculation in the financial industry that lead to the rise and collapse of several major institutions.

4) The bailouts (a patently un-capitalistic subject) allowed failed business to continue living at the expense of the American taxpayer. If the major banks had failed along with GM and Chrysler they would have been liquidated and all their assets sold to smaller (and maybe some foreign) companies. Which would have been really ugly in the short term but would be better in the long term.

To wrap it up. The problem started with the banks a long time ago, government mismanagement turned it into a crisis, and the government bailouts now have us stuck with crap companies and a broken monetary system. Thank you central bank.

I understand the need for life insurance in certain jobs, getting the money paid out to your family/a charity or beneficiary is above board and all well and good. But in the film, the company was getting the life insurance paid to them and not the relatives. I'm not big in knowledge on the law, but that one is messed up.

Or was that just Moore attempting to grab the audience?

It was an attempt to grab audience attention but it misrepresented why companies take out life insurance on some employees. It's actually a separate policy. When I was working for an auditing company we used to see some executives with two or three life insurance policies on them at a time with different beneficiaries for each.

The justification is that if a CEO, financial controller, or somebody with irreplaceable knowledge of the company were to die without preparing a replacement it could cost the company tens of millions of dollars to find and train a suitable replacement.

Lets say a person has been the CEO for 40 years, he knows all the branch managers, all the suppliers, all the buyers, and can negotiate the best deals in the business. Then he dies suddenly. What follows is a mad dash to get a replacement and get them up to speed but it's going to take a lot of time and a lot of money. 40 years of experience is tough and expensive to replace. Having life insurance on him kind of makes sense.

Those mentioned by Moore likely had two policies, one that the company had, and another for their families. He tends to leave a lot of information out of his documentaries to make it more appealing to his viewer base

 

[castlewise]

Eh, Michael Moore doesn't seem to be the most reliable...
I'll pass.

Agreed. He's a shockumentary maker.

Granted, this doesn't invalidate everything he says...but he far too often oversimplifies extremely complex issues and relies on an emotional appeal to earn the sympathy of his viewers.

I wish the escapist had a rating system so I could thumbs up this.

 

[marfin_]

It's because people get it into their plebeian heads that Socialism=Communism, Communism=Evil and Capitalism>Socialism, people don't want to mess with things

Yes your exactly right! Communism is the best form of government... on paper. In real life though it never really worked well for anybody not ruling the country.

The same can be said of Capitalism. The world elite get the majority of the money while the real people have to either live in poverty or sacrifice their ideals and work for corrupt corporations to make any headway.

Please get your information from someone else other than Michael Moore, go read a book about it. The difference between Capitalism and Socialism is that Capitalism provides great economic growth. In 1820 to 1998 the world economy grew 50-fold in capitalist regions like Europe and US. Capitalism also provides more freedom within our own economy and allows people to organize their own economy which provides a better environment for entrepreneurs. Socialism on the other had endorses a planned economy, which was similar to what the United States did during WW1 and 2 with war bonds... do you want to have an economy in which you always use war bonds? Other things like personal property would be viewed as means of production and would have no place in a Socialistic society. Don't kid yourself that there is a perfect system out there because there?s not. Even Capitalism has some major flaws, but its the best we have and we have been making it work since the 1800's at least. Just remember as long as humans have created it, it will always be flawed.

Fuck Michael Moore dude.
And do try not to be so condescending. Nothing I said has any dispute with anything you have just stated. But unlike you, I live in the real world, where the majority of people I know get fucked by Capitalism on a daily basis whether they apply themselves to the system wholeheartedly or otherwise.
And I said nothing about believing there is a perfect system out there, but I also refuse to believe that a system that practically begs people to indulge unchecked greed is the best we have, and so long as people accept that this is all there is and all there could be, nothing will change.

Right all the people that got screwed over by capitalism... compared to the 400,000 deaths caused by collectivization in a Communist Russia. I understand that there were people you know that are now in financial trouble due to Capitalism, but come on it's much better than Communism. To me it's kinda like refusing to drive a car because you know people who got hurt in car accidents, we all accept that it could happen and try our best to prevent it and improve the safety. With Communism you want to ride a fricken skateboard down the middle of the road.

 

[Kopikatsu]

It's because people get it into their plebeian heads that Socialism=Communism, Communism=Evil and Capitalism>Socialism, people don't want to mess with things

Yes your exactly right! Communism is the best form of government... on paper. In real life though it never really worked well for anybody not ruling the country.

The same can be said of Capitalism. The world elite get the majority of the money while the real people have to either live in poverty or sacrifice their ideals and work for corrupt corporations to make any headway.

...I don't think you really understand what Communism is. In a Communist society (Real Karl Marx Communism, not the bastardized socialist version that Lenin and friends used), there couldn't be an 'elite'. Having an elite class goes against the very basis of Communism.

The real problem with Communism is that it has an extremely decentralized power structure as far as government goes...so it's fairly easy for anyone with the charisma and desire for power to take control of the whole thing and turn it into what has been called Communism, but never actually was Communism as Marx envisioned it.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Im seriously tired of kids who keep stating communism will not work just BECAUSE.

Communism as outlined in the Communist Manifesto can really only come about as the result of a massive failure on the part of Capitalism in an industrialised nation and is only sustainable in a post-scarcity economy.

 

[oktalist]

Yes your exactly right! Communism is the best form of government... on paper. In real life though it never really worked well for anybody not ruling the country.

The problem with all the so-called "communist" or "socialist" governments (which is an oxymoron BTW) in the past has been that the population of those countries did not have a high enough standard of education to begin with to fully understand just what Marx was trying to say and why it was important. That was what allowed corruption to take place. This was the point that George Orwell was trying to make in Animal Farm, but everyone now seems to think that he was attacking communism in a more general sense, which he was not - he explicitly said so later (and he remained a socialist throughout his life). The first step towards a socialist society (meaning no central government, no money and no trade) has always got to be education, that way it can be introduced using our preexisting democratic voting system.

The same can be said of Capitalism. The world elite get the majority of the money while the real people have to either live in poverty or sacrifice their ideals and work for corrupt corporations to make any headway.

Quite right. And in relative terms, we are part of that elite. 80% of the world's population live on less than $7000 per year. 10,000 people die every day from not having enough money. And poverty is not just the result of capitalism, it's a necessary component of capitalism.

 

[Gutlord Grom]

To me Michael Moore is essentially the liberal version of Glenn Beck, though in my opinion Moore is slightly more palatable and a tad less insane.

 

[UberNoodle]

Eh, Michael Moore doesn't seem to be the most reliable...
I'll pass.

Eh, Michael Moore doesn't seem to be the most reliable...
I'll pass.

Agreed. He's a shockumentary maker.

Granted, this doesn't invalidate everything he says...but he far too often oversimplifies extremely complex issues and relies on an emotional appeal to earn the sympathy of his viewers.

It's way too one sided of a movie.

I'm a liberal person, but when you entirely devote yourself to one side, you're gonna make some mistakes.

Michael Moore is about as legitimate a documentary maker as an amnesiac chinchilla named Jim.

These are very common assertions but they seldom are made to hold much water. To make a judgment based on such, without actually knowing what facts if any were untrue, isn't any better than if he himself had lied. And relying on a useless dichotomy such as 'true vs untrue' is a far worse simplification than just selective reporting.

I don't know about you all, but I come from an age were learning something meant either primary research or a trip to the library. The Internet was something accessed by command prompt, on computers and with connections that regular people just seldom had. So I know very well that true understanding can never come from a single easy source. Nor is it criminal to give a view which is your own.

Moore's view is his own and of course there'll be several others to counter it. But that doesn't surprise me because that's how it's always been. Moore says his piece, and his rivals and peers say theirs. As a listener to the debate, it's our job to seek out and gather all that information. Each source of information and opinion is a means, not an end. His critics are no more credible just because they claim to be so and Moore is unpopular. I can't disparage Moore for presenting his own viewpoint. And I would never limit my understanding by ignoring his view, no matter how 'right', 'wrong' or 'incomplete' it is said to be.

It's like we are so passive today that we demand everything or nothing in our data dumps.

 

[Jegsimmons]

Watch the film and then come back to this thread...Done?OK WHY DO YOU LET THAT SHIT HAPPEN??I would start a killing spree,and why the hell didn't someone already??I am just wondering how do you feel now after watching the movie...Please do tell!

recaptcha:iPuble Edward.... what the hell?

it's michael moore...he to the left as to what rush limbaugh is to the right.
the dudes a liar and a manipulative son of a ***** who only want people to see his way and ignore facts in the process.
also, did you not catch that he used capitalism to make millions off of his movies that he spread with capitalism. dudes looks at one side and only one side.

capitalism its self is fine, it provides jobs and goods and services. want they want you to think is that the heads are greedy assholes who have contempt for the rest of the world. however, thats takeing the absolute worst from one group, many corporate heads provide charity service and try to run a business straight. not to mention...they kinda earned that money, most millionaires in america are first generation, so if they earned that money running a successful business that provides jobs, GREAT!!!

the film is propaganda from the fucked up beliefs of a nut who thinks he's greater than everyone else....like rush limbaugh except on the other side of the spectrum.
ignore him. the world will be better.

 

[Kair]

Michael Moore is a reaction to the stupidity in the United States. When the stupidity is at such a high level, society becomes polarized and you get stupidity on the other end as well.
Still, he is on the right side of the polarization.

To answer your question:
How the fuck am I supposed to do anything about it? I have been trying to do something for over 5 years.

 

[marfin_]

Please get your information from someone else other than Michael Moore, go read a book about it. The difference between Capitalism and Socialism is that Capitalism provides great economic growth. In 1820 to 1998 the world economy grew 50-fold in capitalist regions like Europe and US. Capitalism also provides more freedom within our own economy and allows people to organize their own economy which provides a better environment for entrepreneurs. Socialism on the other had endorses a planned economy, which was similar to what the United States did during WW1 and 2 with war bonds... do you want to have an economy in which you always use war bonds? Other things like personal property would be viewed as means of production and would have no place in a Socialistic society. Don't kid yourself that there is a perfect system out there because there?s not. Even Capitalism has some major flaws, but its the best we have and we have been making it work since the 1800's at least. Just remember as long as humans have created it, it will always be flawed.

I'm sorry, but most of Europe is partly socialist since the late 19th century, so I'd say you don't really know what you're talking about.

How many times does it have to be said?
Communism cares fuck all about the property of an individual, only "means of production" (that means factories, not your fucking PC) go into government ownership. Also, you're simply wrong if you think that the average worker has more power in a capitalist society today than they had in the days of council communism in the early Soviet Union.

Of course, everything went wrong at some point in time, hence why no one wants communism these days. Again, socialism != communism

Please get your information from someone else other than Michael Moore, go read a book about it. The difference between Capitalism and Socialism is that Capitalism provides great economic growth. In 1820 to 1998 the world economy grew 50-fold in capitalist regions like Europe and US. Capitalism also provides more freedom within our own economy and allows people to organize their own economy which provides a better environment for entrepreneurs. Socialism on the other had endorses a planned economy, which was similar to what the United States did during WW1 and 2 with war bonds... do you want to have an economy in which you always use war bonds? Other things like personal property would be viewed as means of production and would have no place in a Socialistic society. Don't kid yourself that there is a perfect system out there because there?s not. Even Capitalism has some major flaws, but its the best we have and we have been making it work since the 1800's at least. Just remember as long as humans have created it, it will always be flawed.

I'm sorry, but most of Europe is partly socialist since the late 19th century, so I'd say you don't really know what you're talking about.

The "partly socialist" economy you are referring to is called a mixed economy and uses part of Capitalism and Socialism, but is still considered as a Capitalistic form of economy.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

OK WHY DO YOU LET THAT SHIT HAPPEN??

Why did you?

Getting angry is all well and good, but what would you do in that situation?

 

[Blue_vision]

It's because people get it into their plebeian heads that Socialism=Communism, Communism=Evil and Capitalism>Socialism, people don't want to mess with things

It's not even capitalism vs socialism. It's the problem with the neoliberal branch of capitalism.

And I have been doing something about it (haven't watched the movie though, as much as I agree with Michael Moore's political ideas, his filmmaking style is only one step above WWII-era propaganda, and I'm driven away by the incredibly heavy bias.) I urge you to do the same.