I just watched Capitalisam.A love story....Why the fuck don't you do something about it?

[LorChan]

I'm not fond of Michael Moore, but I agree with the point of view that capitalism is fucked up, especially when combined with the massive greed in our culture. I'm a die-hard socialist, and that won't ever change.

 

[Falseprophet]

Granted, this doesn't invalidate everything he says...but he far too often oversimplifies extremely complex issues and relies on an emotional appeal to earn the sympathy of his viewers.

I knew he was a propagandist from the first time I saw Bowling for Columbine, as I found his historical arguments to have shaky reasoning. Just because I might agree with propaganda, doesn't mean I don't recognize it as propaganda.

What made him unique in the late 90s/early 2000s was he was the only visible propagandist on the so-called "left" of American politics, while there were dozens of equally abrasive, emotional, hackneyed misleading loud-mouthed morons on the other side. When you're dying of thirst, you'll drink salt water if you can't get anything else.

 

[cthulhumythos]

Watch the film and then come back to this thread...Done?OK WHY DO YOU LET THAT SHIT HAPPEN??I would start a killing spree,and why the hell didn't someone already??I am just wondering how do you feel now after watching the movie...Please do tell!

recaptcha:iPuble Edward.... what the hell?

that Michael Moore is an imbecile?

honestly he's simply left-wing rush limbaugh.


and i always want to start a killing spree, but for different reasons i assume. stupid laws get in my way though.

 

[OliverTwist72]

Eh, Michael Moore doesn't seem to be the most reliable...
I'll pass.

Agreed. He's a shockumentary maker.

Granted, this doesn't invalidate everything he says...but he far too often oversimplifies extremely complex issues and relies on an emotional appeal to earn the sympathy of his viewers.

Definately. It's decently entertaining, but in no way the whole truth. Much like those 24 hour "news" networks, but that's another topic. You can pretty much check on wikipedia any of his movies where there are half-truths/outright lies.

Also, he made a pretty good scene in this:

Spoiler

 

[LostintheWick]

It's because people get it into their plebeian heads that Socialism=Communism, Communism=Evil and Capitalism>Socialism, people don't want to mess with things

Yes your exactly right! Communism is the best form of government... on paper. In real life though it never really worked well for anybody not ruling the country.

The same could be said for Anarchy... and no one rules the country in that political system...

OT: The form of Capitalism we have now is too much. It needs to have some accountability attached to it. some REAL accountability. There needs to be more regulation. I'm personally in favour of incremental tax increases in percentage for people higher up the wage ladder. Not quite as extreme as the Labour party in the UK in the 70's, but higher than now.

The biggest problem with Capitalism now is that money = political power

Capitalism is like a broken game design that only starts to show it's seams at higher character levels. Ever play any Elder Scrolls games (love em)? By 20th-ish level you will have unlimited gold, unlimited power, and have learned all the tricks to out-game the game. The PC becomes untouchable and the ruler of all.

Only problem is, we aren't the PCs. The extremely rich are. And any doors that would have lead to that world are closing. Those who seek power rarely want to share it.

Nobody can ever tell me that the top 1% aren't running our world and country. At the absolute core, this world system only cares for ONE thing and that is MONEY. Not human life/happiness. Money is control over the game.

So yeah. I agree with you.

Funny thing is, capitalism hasn't even been around that long and the system is already broken. Early forms of government have lasted way longer. It's time for us to evolve to the next step and make things better for everybody. Not just the minority.

 

[Jegsimmons]

im pretty sure michael moore is a con artist.
after all he used capitalism to spread his movies while shitting on other people in the process. hell even wal-mart isnt as evil as he is. if he doesnt like something he just gives a one sided opinion on it to make people think the way he does, and i think thats called...um...facism...or was it elitism?....lets just call him a douche bag.

and on the true communism part with no one ruler or elites. its a great sounding system on paper but unfortunately like economic systems like it and pure socialism, it doesnt really account for the 'human variable' which will make it kinda flop in the long run, how ever, even though capitalism has problems it has alot of flexibility because it does hold well against the 'human variable'.

and this human variable im talking about is the decisions and actions made by either individuals or a whole group of people who act outside the norm. (individualism really) after all one of the benefits of capitalism is choice among other things.

 

[conflictofinterests]

Michael Moore is about as legitimate a documentary maker as an amnesiac chinchilla named Jim.

Was he named Jim before or after the incident that caused the amnesia. This has bearing on the trustworthiness of said chinchilla.

 

[chiggerwood]

You do realize that Michael Moore is to the documentary community what an A.I.D.S. outbreak is to the community of a poor African country right?

 

[BOOM headshot65]

Actually, something about communism is very ironic. People in the US always say how "Un-American" it is, and treat it as the ultimate evil (I am guilty of this). But the Irony is that, by the origional Marxist-communism, the ONLY nation capable of being truely communist...IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

 

[Nimcha]

I know that I am not an animal after years of reflection, so I assume as much for everyone else that they can also learn not to be an animal.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. You are an animal, as is every other human being. Hundreds of years of science has proved that.

So, fortunately, even your 'enlightened' communism will never happen.

 

[Kair]

It's because people get it into their plebeian heads that Socialism=Communism, Communism=Evil and Capitalism>Socialism, people don't want to mess with things

Yes your exactly right! Communism is the best form of government... on paper.

Not even that. You can clearly see it will not work without having to put it into practice.

What is worse, to say that Communism is only good as a hypothesis, or to not even know what the hypothesis is before you comment on it.

The first is ignorant because a hypothesis needs to be tested before it can be falsified. The second is ignorant because not only because you say your imagined hypothesis is good (which it most likely is not since it is not a true hypothesis), but because you do not do enough research to even know what the hypothesis is.

Hey genius it has been tested in the following countries:
Russia
China
Cuba
Laos
North Korea
Vietnam

? are any of these countries not know for being repressive to their peoples?

You think revolutionary worker's states are attempts at Communism?

... umm yes. I thought I was clear on that.

btw I'm surprised there has not been any "in soviet Russia" jokes yet.

I just defined Communism for you, and you provide examples almost the opposites of the definition? At best they were despotic rules with a mask of Communism. The Communism part wasn't even a part of the focus of the mask. The core of the propaganda was the revolutionary worker's state, which is a sub-branch of socialist hypotheses and very ineffective.

Just to be clear, Socialism is the path to Communism. A Socialist society is the hypothetical mid-section between Capitalism and Communism. It is far from a requirement, and a pseudo-socialist tyranny is even further from Communism.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Michael Moore is about as legitimate a documentary maker as an amnesiac chinchilla named Jim.

Was he named Jim before or after the incident that caused the amnesia. This has bearing on the trustworthiness of said chinchilla.

He doesn't remember, all he knows is that he woke in a strangers bedroom with a killer hangover and the ugliest hamster he's ever seen.

 

[Gxas]

Moore makes good movies and there is always some truth to them.

I see that you have given the intended response after watching.

Me? I prefer to think logically. I look at both sides and then make my own mind up.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

I see quite a lot of people here mistaking Leninism for Communism. Let's get something straight: there has never ever been a true Communist state. Communism is an Utopia and if you think it would be like 1984, you're wrong. 1984 is Stalinism. Communism is best described as The Federation in Star Trek: a world without currency, where every man can do whatever he wants, while being rewarded properly for his labor. A world where any man can live and thrive based on his efforts. A world where someone who just wants to keep a nice french bar can live as happily as an admiral.

Capitalism is flawed in many ways. It produces inequality and in the long run it leads to something even worse than Stalinism. What you end up with is a powerful elite (which you'll never be a part of, by the way), who control EVERYTHING, and the rest of the world, who're at the mercy of their leaders. If you thought Totalitarism was dead and gone, you'd be surprised just how close we are to it, but this time on a global scale.

As in the 19'th century, the Marxist ideals and warnings are perfectly valid in our current times. Marxism was a simple evolution of the term "citizen", invented by the French Revolution. But, since most of the reforms proposed (such as welfare, work protection, labor laws) have already been applied all over the world, we tend to forget just how Marxist we all are. Socialism was an attempt to put into effect the Marxist theory. It has been successfully applied in countries such as Great Britain, where the change was gradual and mixed in well with the existing Monarchy. Leninism pushed for sudden change, and overthrow of existing leaders, simple and violent revolution. It was a mistake and it evolved into its natural form: Stalinism, or better said, Big Brother. Russia, China and North Korea are perfect examples, but more toned variants can still be found all over the world, mostly in Arab states. Big Brothers appear in different forms, they don't need to be individuals for the ugly thing to work. Big Brothers can be spawned by any ideology, even capitalism. The best example is the USA which has 2 parties, 2 flavors of the same corrupt idea. A state in which the average citizen is at the mercy of laws made to enrich the rich. A state in which freedom of speech means nothing without being able to act or having anyone to listen. And yes, I'm thinking about Michael Moore right now.

So don't be too quick to dismiss socialism. It's a much better recipe for freedom and human rights. And, what's even more important, it can be applied much more efficiently now than it was a century ago.

I agree that communism is a Utopia, though we are corrupt and unfortunately will never make it work. Though the new race of supercomputers will be able to enjoy it though

Thank you to the first guy for saying what I wanted to about elucidating the difference between Socialism and Capitalism. Thank you to the second for succintly illustrating why the latter will never come to fruition. I suppose I'd define myself as a Democratic Socialist (how much you want to bet people are going to focus entirely on that second word). Thereby keeping private industry but utilising government funding to provide aid to the economically downtrodden and provide good qaulity public education and healthcare (like the NHS that we used to have.) Please note that I think the general principles of this ideology would more specifcally suit Britain, I'm not trying to suggest if for other countries whose economic and social situations I am less informed on.

Edit: As a sidenote I find it funny that people equate Communism with the totalitarian dystopia setting of 1984. Especially when the author is a noted Democratic Socialist and all throughout the book the emphasis is on how the proles vastly outnumer members of both the inner and outer party (proles make up 85% of Oceania if I remember correctly) but there ignorence and indolence means they do not instigate an insurrection against their tyrannical overlords. Orwell highlighted that the flaw with Socialism is that it entails a government that is meant be an embodiment of the will of the people, while it is in fact dictated by a very small minority, where the people do not even have the basic right to choose their representatives. And this was a fate that people incurred upon themselves, it's a warning to the reader not just about Socialism but against demagoguery in general. Be wary of what information you buy and whose opinion you trust. That sentence I believe makes a decent summary of the nature of this thread.

 

[Kair]

I know that I am not an animal after years of reflection, so I assume as much for everyone else that they can also learn not to be an animal.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. You are an animal, as is every other human being. Hundreds of years of science has proved that.

So, fortunately, even your 'enlightened' communism will never happen.

1) If we are all animals, all morality and thought is void. Believing you are an animal turns you into an animal. Trying hard enough to be a Human turns you into a Human. We distinguish between sentient and non-sentient for a reason.

2) The suggested impotence of Humanity is not fortunate. I know you are influenced by popular opinion to say such things, but I still know I must correct you on it in case it might help.

 

[Giest4life]

It's because people get it into their plebeian heads that Socialism=Communism, Communism=Evil and Capitalism>Socialism, people don't want to mess with things

Yes your exactly right! Communism is the best form of government... on paper. In real life though it never really worked well for anybody not ruling the country.

The same can be said of Capitalism. The world elite get the majority of the money while the real people have to either live in poverty or sacrifice their ideals and work for corrupt corporations to make any headway.

Please get your information from someone else other than Michael Moore, go read a book about it. The difference between Capitalism and Socialism is that Capitalism provides great economic growth. In 1820 to 1998 the world economy grew 50-fold in capitalist regions like Europe and US. Capitalism also provides more freedom within our own economy and allows people to organize their own economy which provides a better environment for entrepreneurs. Socialism on the other had endorses a planned economy, which was similar to what the United States did during WW1 and 2 with war bonds... do you want to have an economy in which you always use war bonds? Other things like personal property would be viewed as means of production and would have no place in a Socialistic society. Don't kid yourself that there is a perfect system out there because there?s not. Even Capitalism has some major flaws, but its the best we have and we have been making it work since the 1800's at least. Just remember as long as humans have created it, it will always be flawed.

Europe, Capitalist? You, sir, need to brush up on your history. The European economic growth was fueled by imperialism--they found vast untapped markets. And even then the free market principles did not apply. Each colonial power used mercantile policies in their colonies (and motherstate). Obtaining raw materials for colonies at next-to-nothing costs, processing them in factories back home, and selling that stuff domestically and on to their colonies. The British, for example, did not allow competition in India (not even from Indian manufacturers), and resorted to extreme measures to keep it so. They, literally, cut off the hands of thousands of home-factory family cotton producers to eliminate competition.

And in America, the South was the cotton powerhouse, which surprise, surprise, was powered by cheap labor i.e. slavery. One of the reasons the South fought so damn hard against Abolition.

Capitalism is a myth; capitalist policies, however, are not.

 

[Nimcha]

I know that I am not an animal after years of reflection, so I assume as much for everyone else that they can also learn not to be an animal.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. You are an animal, as is every other human being. Hundreds of years of science has proved that.

So, fortunately, even your 'enlightened' communism will never happen.

1) If we are all animals, all morality and thought is void.

Which is the case. Your point being?

 

[stefanbertramlee]

It's because people get it into their plebeian heads that Socialism=Communism, Communism=Evil and Capitalism>Socialism, people don't want to mess with things

Yes your exactly right! Communism is the best form of government... on paper.

Not even that. You can clearly see it will not work without having to put it into practice.

What is worse, to say that Communism is only good as a hypothesis, or to not even know what the hypothesis is before you comment on it.

The first is ignorant because a hypothesis needs to be tested before it can be falsified. The second is ignorant because not only because you say your imagined hypothesis is good (which it most likely is not since it is not a true hypothesis), but because you do not do enough research to even know what the hypothesis is.

Hey genius it has been tested in the following countries:
Russia
China
Cuba
Laos
North Korea
Vietnam

? are any of these countries not know for being repressive to their peoples?

You think revolutionary worker's states are attempts at Communism?

... umm yes. I thought I was clear on that.

btw I'm surprised there has not been any "in soviet Russia" jokes yet.

I just defined Communism for you, and you provide examples almost the opposites of the definition? At best they were despotic rules with a mask of Communism. The Communism part wasn't even a part of the focus of the mask. The core of the propaganda was the revolutionary worker's state, which is a sub-branch of socialist hypotheses and very ineffective.

Just to be clear, Socialism is the path to Communism. A Socialist society is the hypothetical mid-section between Capitalism and Communism. It is far from a requirement, and a pseudo-socialist tyranny is even further from Communism.

Russia,China,Cuba,Laos,North Korea,Vietnam, all were Politerain Dictatorships, the first step on the corspe sterwn path to the classless utpoia that is commuisiom, and all of them failed to become anything more than that, Commuision is a failed experiment.

 

[Shirokurou]

Go to Federative Russia...

 

[Kair]

I know that I am not an animal after years of reflection, so I assume as much for everyone else that they can also learn not to be an animal.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. You are an animal, as is every other human being. Hundreds of years of science has proved that.

So, fortunately, even your 'enlightened' communism will never happen.

1) If we are all animals, all morality and thought is void.

Which is the case. Your point being?

That might is right, and all our correct actions are based on rewards.
This is untrue for me, and I hope it can be for all.

We are now polarized, either you are an animal or a Human, with conservatives and cynics on the animal side and Humanists on the Human side.

I blame religion for the reactionary cynicism found here.