I just watched Ghost in the Shell 2017

[Trunkage]

And what was exactly wrong? I mean, it didn't follow the anime fully but I'm okay with that. I don't need things to follow their cartoon representation exactly (Beauty and the Beast, looking at you).

I would have given it a 6 or 7/10 (need more time to process to get a final number). So adequate would be the term. I remember people not liking this. Am I mistaken?

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

It's less about not following the anime's plot and more about not containing the same level of depth with its philosophical themes and being more of a generic action scifi movie that's the issue. That and anime being really really hard to do justice in live action.


But yeah a 6 is a fair rating, it's not the worst thing ever made nor is it dragonball evolution levels of bad. It's just that Masamune Shirow's masterpiece deserves nothing below a 10/10 movie to feel befitting so anything less will be met with severe criticism.

 

[Dalisclock]

To be fair none of the movies have done the show real justice. Even the original film had horrible, horrible pacing issues where you had long bouts of nothing happening at all followed by extremely densely packed clusters of stuff happening all at once.

Though apparently this one also had the issue of ScarJo playing the major despite not really making much sense and probably having better actors available who would have fit the role better, though I'm not sure if that ended up mattering much in the end.

 

[Saint of M]

Still havn't seen it yet, but will this weekend.

Would you say its simalar to Final Fantasy: The Sprits Within then? There would be alot less hate for it if it had ANY other name?

 

[twistedmic]

And what was exactly wrong? I mean, it didn't follow the anime fully but I'm okay with that. I don't need things to follow their cartoon representation exactly (Beauty and the Beast, looking at you).

I would have given it a 6 or 7/10 (need more time to process to get a final number). So adequate would be the term. I remember people not liking this. Am I mistaken?

The main problem seems to be, as I see it, that a bunch of people got pissy over the fact that a white woman was cast to play the role of a cybernetic/prosthetic body that happened to house the memory wiped mind of a Japanese character.

 

[Trunkage]

And what was exactly wrong? I mean, it didn't follow the anime fully but I'm okay with that. I don't need things to follow their cartoon representation exactly (Beauty and the Beast, looking at you).

I would have given it a 6 or 7/10 (need more time to process to get a final number). So adequate would be the term. I remember people not liking this. Am I mistaken?

The main problem seems to be, as I see it, that a bunch of people got pissy over the fact that a white woman was cast to play the role of a cybernetic/prosthetic body that happened to house the memory wiped mind of a Japanese character.

Well, at least they tried to explain the white washing. Doesn't explain some of the other peeps on the team

 

[Casual Shinji]

It's just one of those movies where it's clear from the outset that it's going to pale in comparison to the original, so why the hell even bother. It's like remaking Ben-Hur, or The Shinning, or Robocop. Added to this is that GitS '95 (which is what most people are familiar with) was as memorable as it was because of the animated visuals. Then there's the problem of GitS being a major influence on The Matrix, so remaking GitS into a live-action movie trying the emulate the anime is just going to make it look like a flimsy Matrix rip-off. All this topped off by a white-washing controversy.

 

[Hawki]

Got a 4/10 from me when I reviewed it.

I've never seen the original GitS, but it did come out the same year as Blade Runner 2049, and it really suffers in comparison. The world feels empty and barely fleshed out. The characters are like, ahem, 'shells' - stock, with no real personality. The plot is weak. The action is kinda meh. It's just a dull movie overall.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The main problem seems to be, as I see it, that a bunch of people got pissy over the fact that a white woman was cast to play the role of a cybernetic/prosthetic body that happened to house the memory wiped mind of a Japanese character.

It's more that people got rightly irritated that in the 21st century Hollywood still literally can't bring itself to put an Asian actress in a starring role to the point of creating a convoluted story explanation as to why it was okay for them to cast a (horrendously over-used and quite mediocre) white actress instead.

I mean, I'm sure there is someone out there who can't figure out the very obvious meaning of the film's title, but for everyone else, the problem wasn't and isn't diegetic. It's not that it's impossible or inconsistent with the film's universe that an asian person's mind could be put into a white cyborg body, although this is a property created by someone who basically decided that minds have a fixed sex/gender in order to get out of drawing a dudes butt or making a character canonically queer, so who knows.

But the real problem isn't diegetic. It isn't to do with the story or the coherence of the story explanations, it's to do with the way non-white people and in this case asian actors in particular are treated by the entertainment industry, still overwhelmingly overlooked for starring roles and, when they are cast, are often asian stereotypes, side characters or comic relief. The fact that a property which seems tailor made for an asian lead was specifically written to explain why the lead character was white is just an example of this problem.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Yeah, it was alright. It wasn't anything beyond and Scarlett Johannson didn't bring anything to the character to justify her playing someone named "Motoko Kusanagi", but script and direction were okay. It's a mostly watchable movie.

 

[Frezzato]

I don't know what happened to Juliette Binoche, but her acting in this movie was just - Jesus it was terrible. Combine her wooden performance with ScarJo's stoicism, which is normally mistaken for acting, and you have some truly awkward scenes.

The dialogue was also composed of expositional "future speak", which is fine for stuff like TV, but mixing that garbage with bad actors makes for unintentionally funny moments. And then there was one huge character flaw that I just can't forgive:

Spoiler

The "bad guy" of the movie (really a good guy), whatshisface, is seeking revenge against Hanka Robotics for kidnapping him, wiping his mind, and using him as a killing tool.

As part of his revenge plot, he decides to take two random men, wipe their minds, and use them as killing tools.

Huh? The hypocrisy is strong in this one. Why not just take someone else, anyone relevant to the plot, and wipe their minds instead?

On top of that, whatshisface even forces one of those poor guys to kill himself while still in police custody. A nobody, a regular guy off the street. He kills him.

Did nobody read the script before filming?

 

[Trunkage]

I don't know what happened to Juliette Binoche, but her acting in this movie was just - Jesus it was terrible. Combine her wooden performance with ScarJo's stoicism, which is normally mistaken for acting, and you have some truly awkward scenes.

The dialogue was also composed of expositional "future speak", which is fine for stuff like TV, but mixing that garbage with bad actors makes for unintentionally funny moments. And then there was one huge character flaw that I just can't forgive:

Spoiler

The "bad guy" of the movie (really a good guy), whatshisface, is seeking revenge against Hanka Robotics for kidnapping him, wiping his mind, and using him as a killing tool.

As part of his revenge plot, he decides to take two random men, wipe their minds, and use them as killing tools.

Huh? The hypocrisy is strong in this one. Why not just take someone else, anyone relevant to the plot, and wipe their minds instead?

On top of that, whatshisface even forces one of those poor guys to kill himself while still in police custody. A nobody, a regular guy off the street. He kills him.

Did nobody read the script before filming?

I had similar problems with Cutter. Not one of his (seemingly) huge and well equipped army stopped to think... Maybe this guy is using us to clean house. We're to eradicate a whole section? Because one went rogue? And then, when the protagonist is cornered, he asks his men to go away so he can kill them himself?

 

[PFCboom]

The Japanese liked Scarlett Johansson. Literally, people representing the country where GitS came from, thought Scarlett was a good choice. But, true to our nature, us white folks either didn't notice or acknowledge their feelings. As a lowly faculty assistant from my middle school once said, when I rightfully counter-insulted a friend, "Well I'm offended for her, so you're in trouble."

Friendly reminder: The Japanese people felt the "Japanese Juggernaut" boom of the 80's at least as much as us Americans did. For a time, our aesthetics was reflected on their popular culture. Think about it: Why were so many 90's anime influenced at least in part by Western sci-fi/fantasy concepts? The Slayers is pretty much an exaggerated game of D&D, Cowboy Bebop is a fusion of Americanized kung fu and western-movie aesthetic; speaking of outlaws, Outlaw Star is what happens when Ghost in the Shell, a property already heavily influenced by German sci-fi robotics, meets Cowboy Bebop.
Besides, you ever wonder why anime characters for most of the 80's, 90's and 00's were pale? As in, not the same skin shade as the actual Japanese people? It's because they were trying to appeal to us.
And that mentality, whether they know it or not, carried over into their impression of ScarJo as Major Kusanagi. They said that ScarJo looks like the Major, so they're happy with it.
But, again, Western audiences, who were hyper-sensitive to racial blunders in 2017 - something something orange president something - this white-washing was perceived as something probably far, FAR more offensive than it probably was.

As for more cinematic nuts-and-bolts complaints, I got nothing. Never seen the movie. I imagine it's okay, but it might've been better if it had the freedom of imagination that comes from being a 2D animation.

 

[Trunkage]

The Japanese liked Scarlett Johansson. Literally, people representing the country where GitS came from, thought Scarlett was a good choice. But, true to our nature, us white folks either didn't notice or acknowledge their feelings. As a lowly faculty assistant from my middle school once said, when I rightfully counter-insulted a friend, "Well I'm offended for her, so you're in trouble."

Friendly reminder: The Japanese people felt the "Japanese Juggernaut" boom of the 80's at least as much as us Americans did. For a time, our aesthetics was reflected on their popular culture. Think about it: Why were so many 90's anime influenced at least in part by Western sci-fi/fantasy concepts? The Slayers is pretty much an exaggerated game of D&D, Cowboy Bebop is a fusion of Americanized kung fu and western-movie aesthetic; speaking of outlaws, Outlaw Star is what happens when Ghost in the Shell, a property already heavily influenced by German sci-fi robotics, meets Cowboy Bebop.
Besides, you ever wonder why anime characters for most of the 80's, 90's and 00's were pale? As in, not the same skin shade as the actual Japanese people? It's because they were trying to appeal to us.
And that mentality, whether they know it or not, carried over into their impression of ScarJo as Major Kusanagi. They said that ScarJo looks like the Major, so they're happy with it.
But, again, Western audiences, who were hyper-sensitive to racial blunders in 2017 - something something orange president something - this white-washing was perceived as something probably far, FAR more offensive than it probably was.

As for more cinematic nuts-and-bolts complaints, I got nothing. Never seen the movie. I imagine it's okay, but it might've been better if it had the freedom of imagination that comes from being a 2D animation.

You know a lot of this criticism of Western culture is a self regulation thing right? We (as part of Western beliefs) are critical of everything to make sure that we DON'T overstep bounds. Hence the reactionary groups showing up like Proud Boys or MAGAs who can't handle criticism and only care about their liberty and anyone's else freedom is irrelevant.

I thought the salient point was that this was a great opportunity for a Asian-American actress to get a lead and they weren't given the chance. You know because the character is originally Asian.

All the economic side you stated, I can understand. But all you're points highlighted how society and economics reinforce that only whites can have lead roles.

You're literally proving these SJWs right

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The whole thing with Motoko being Asian or not kinda goes both ways.


In anime, chars who aren't officially stated to be non-japanese (or who don't exist in fictional places) are Japanese. Things like hair color or eye shape do not define race but rather personality traits. For example, the blond drill haired puffy western dress wearing girl is a million times more likely to be a Japanese rich young lady than anything else, while the redhead who yells a lot is not a ginger but merely a Japanese girl with a "fiery red" personality.

In short, appearances in anime are elements that are used to convey information about a character's actual personality more so than their racial background. The same goes for skin tone. Someone with a tanned skin is typically more "working class" because of the old notions about farmers working in the fields getting tanned while nobles being always under umbrellas. So when you see someone super pale in an anime, it's a sign they're wealthy or high class, not that they're non-Japanese.


Now, with the above huge caveat being as it is, GitS was never all that Japanese. It was one of those American-inspired science fiction tales with the Japanese soul inserted into it. These are not my words but rather the words of a Tokyo university professor I discussed such issues with. Japan has this thing with external stuff, taking it and infusing it with their own approach to storytelling. That being so, GitS can have either asian or other race actors play the chars as long as they look reasonably close to the drawings of them, the key factor it must have to not insult Japanese culture is not a token asian lead but rather the Japanese soul I spoke of.

Sadly, this movie lacked it completely, it could have been just another western-based scifi thing. That's what ought to be focused on much much more, but sadly most people who complained either didn't even see the original or don't think as deeply about this subject so they only approach the surface level stuff of the race of the actors.

 

[mad825]

Still havn't seen it yet, but will this weekend.

Would you say its simalar to Final Fantasy: The Sprits Within then? There would be alot less hate for it if it had ANY other name?

Any sodding Final Fantasy could have been called by any other name, back in the day they never focused on extensive cannons. It's only because most people only played FF7 and mostly had a boner for FF7. Sprits Within keeps true to Final Fantasy franchise because of it's extensive use of mythology used in their storytelling.

 

[Hawki]

Now, with the above huge caveat being as it is, GitS was never all that Japanese. It was one of those American-inspired science fiction tales with the Japanese soul inserted into it. These are not my words but rather the words of a Tokyo university professor I discussed such issues with. Japan has this thing with external stuff, taking it and infusing it with their own approach to storytelling. That being so, GitS can have either asian or other race actors play the chars as long as they look reasonably close to the drawings of them, the key factor it must have to not insult Japanese culture is not a token asian lead but rather the Japanese soul I spoke of.

Sadly, this movie lacked it completely, it could have been just another western-based scifi thing. That's what ought to be focused on much much more, but sadly most people who complained either didn't even see the original or don't think as deeply about this subject so they only approach the surface level stuff of the race of the actors.

Looking at the movie, I never saw it as that much of a thing. There's white people in Japan, so, first thing that came to mind is that this in the future, and presumably Japan has opened up its borders to immigration or somesuch. Certainly there's a reference to the "African Union" or something, so we can assume that the world's geo-political context has shifted somewhat. If anything, it could be argued that the Major being Japanese and having a non-Asian body adds a level of body horror...

...key word on "could," because the film doesn't really delve into it at all, and arguing that the whole Asian-ScarJo thing is part of some kind of sub-text is giving the film too much credit. But again, like you said, the movie lacks a lot of 'soul.' This comes down to its storytelling, to how sterile the city feels (again, compare that to BR 2049, where Los Angeles feels 'alive').

 

[Hawki]

Still havn't seen it yet, but will this weekend.

Would you say its simalar to Final Fantasy: The Sprits Within then? There would be alot less hate for it if it had ANY other name?

Any sodding Final Fantasy could have been called by any other name, back in the day they never focused on extensive cannons. It's only because most people only played FF7 and mostly had a boner for FF7. Sprits Within keeps true to Final Fantasy franchise because of it's extensive use of mythology used in their storytelling.

I can only speak for myself, but Spirits Within is just plain bad. It losing the Final Fantasy moniker wouldn't change that.

Doom is another example where even if it didn't suck as an adaptation, it's still a lacklustre movie in its own right.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The Japanese liked Scarlett Johansson. Literally, people representing the country where GitS came from, thought Scarlett was a good choice. But, true to our nature, us white folks either didn't notice or acknowledge their feelings. As a lowly faculty assistant from my middle school once said, when I rightfully counter-insulted a friend, "Well I'm offended for her, so you're in trouble."

Japanese people living in Japan don't face any form of discrimination for being Japanese.

This is basically a more globalised form of the "my black friend doesn't mind when I use the n-word" argument. The fact that you can find people of colour who support you doesn't mean you're right. It particularly doesn't mean you're right when your ethnic minority "friends" live in a completely different country thousands of miles away and are foreign to American popular culture.

Japanese people don't actually share some kind of hive mind, they all have unique experiences and perspectives. In particular, Japanese people living as an ethnic minority the US have very different experiences to Japanese people living as an ethnic majority in Japan, and if you've lived as an ethnic minority in Japan you'll know this also works the other way.

For Asian Americans, American popular culture is their popular culture. It's not some outside culture separate to theirs, and yet they are barely present or represented with in it. Countless prominent Asian Americans, including those working in the TV and film industry like Constance Wu, Ming-Na Wen, John Cho and Margaret Cho have spoken openly about whitewashing and the way Asian actors are treated in American media. But I guess listening to Asians means we can only listen to real Asians whose pure Asian souls have never been corrupted by the defiled Earth of other lands, and just pretend that any American who has a problem must automatically be white.

After all, American = white, right? Sounds legit to me..

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The Japanese liked Scarlett Johansson. Literally, people representing the country where GitS came from, thought Scarlett was a good choice. But, true to our nature, us white folks either didn't notice or acknowledge their feelings. As a lowly faculty assistant from my middle school once said, when I rightfully counter-insulted a friend, "Well I'm offended for her, so you're in trouble."

Japanese people living in Japan don't face any form of discrimination for being Japanese.

This is basically a more globalised form of the "my black friend doesn't mind when I use the n-word" argument. The fact that you can find people of colour who support you doesn't mean you're right. It particularly doesn't mean you're right when your ethnic minority "friends" live in a completely different country thousands of miles away and are foreign to American popular culture.

Japanese people don't actually share some kind of hive mind, they all have unique experiences and perspectives. In particular, Japanese people living as an ethnic minority the US have very different experiences to Japanese people living as an ethnic majority in Japan, and if you've lived as an ethnic minority in Japan you'll know this also works the other way.

For Asian Americans, American popular culture is their popular culture. It's not some outside culture separate to theirs, and yet they are barely present or represented with in it. Countless prominent Asian Americans, including those working in the TV and film industry like Constance Wu, Ming-Na Wen, John Cho and Margaret Cho have spoken openly about whitewashing and the way Asian actors are treated in American media. But I guess listening to Asians means we can only listen to real Asians whose pure Asian souls have never been corrupted by the defiled Earth of other lands, and just pretend that any American who has a problem must automatically be white.

After all, American = white, right? Sounds legit to me..

Just like how every Japanese person in Japan has a unique experience, so do Japanese-Americans, so with your logic we can't expand any personal experience of absolutely anybody at all to cover their entire group. I'd tend to agree with you if you followed your logic to its conclusion but you tend to stop half way and while some people are not a hive mind, you treat others as though they all have a hive mind experience of victimization that doesn't make sense if we want to treat people as individuals.


If anything, it's racist to use Asians who are not Japanese as an example of what Japanese-Americans would experience, cause you're treating them like they're all the same cause they're all from the far east, which is an ethnocentric view of the world that places America as the default place that other places are east or west from.

Now, I sympathize with the general point about whitewashing in American media. GitS however isn't or at they very least SHOULDN'T be American media. It should be Japanese media handled by Americans, kinda like how Dark Souls is a western-feeling game handled by Japanese devs. (but even more so because this is actually based on something with an established identity)




Finally, American popular culture is exported to the entire planet, in a lot of countries it is the ONLY culture that exists (for example, Greece has basically no animation, at all, it's all imported anime and imported american cartoons, so to any kid growing up watching animation, their culture will be a mix of dragonball and pokemon and Disney stuff). It is most definitely not the culture of just Americans and it is not a culture that has social impacts that only affect American citizens. It's just as much the culture of everyone else who basically grew up with it and enjoys it. You don't get any more of a claim to it than the Japanese people simply because you share citizenship with the creators. If anything, the fact that a movie is based on an anime classic gives them more of a claim to it because you're fiddling with people's childhood here.

This is even more pronounced now that we live in the age of the internet, where someone can simulcast a brand new Anime episode in America with english subtitles as it is being shown in Japanese tv. At this point, there's no "our" or "their" popular culture, it all belongs to every fan, outside of nationality. That being the case, the notion that American pop culture that has a worldwide audience has to primarily function to benefit American society isn't a given or something to be taken for granted like your words would imply. That's something you'd do on a case by case basis when it feels like it makes sense, like for example with the Boondocks cartoon.