I left my girlfriend so I would never have to play another JRPG...

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

The Gameplay and story can be seperate as the fact that FPS have worked as a genre. What I am trying to say is one doen't have to be implemented into the other as gameplay is more about the mechanics of the game battles and what not while the story is well the story. Maybe I didn't make my point concise enough but in situation done properly gameplay and story can be seperate.

You're just saying the same thing over and over without giving me any examples. Name some games where you think a separation of story and gameplay improved the experience and we'll move on from there.

Star Ocean Til The End of Time as a closely linked gameplay and story would have done nothing for that game. Same as FFIX or FFVII your choices in the game had very little impact on the whole story and that didn't do anything to hamper the experience. In fact it allows you to concetrate on the story without worrying that your actions early on might some horrible reprecussions later. An example of horrible reprecussion could be the Nuke in Megaton and using it to blow up Megaton before you've Moira's quest which would be a kick in the teeth as that is a good quest. Same as in FFX no matter what decision you make it has no overall effect on the main story so your losing on anything.

I don't see why a choice system or something that you gotten in gameplay could be used to improve any of those games. I never thought when I playing them I wish had more choice or I wish I could have a bigger personal effect on the story. I liked the stories the way they were. I didn't think in Star Ocean that I wish I could have chose what side I was on in the war on EilcoorII. Basically every JRPG does this so there are plenty of examples when seperating is good. Although Tales Of Vesperia would be an example where it is integrated but also good.

 

[likalaruku]

Sofar, only BioWare & Amaratnth make RPGs with both stories & characters I can really sink my teeth into. Everything else does kinda come off as "the same thing with a different look."

Dungeon Siege is really the only opening to an RPG I can recall vividly. Then again, it was my very first 3D RPG.

I did the exact same thing in Morrowind. Even went into God Mode to see how long it would take to kill every NPC in the game before touching the story, then got waylaid by re-exploring after uploading about 100 mods.

I can tollerate long intence narration with little gameplay...in episodic gaming.

I only see 1 use for JRPGs: eyecandy. These characters are modeled after real Japanese men & women (& I'm attracted to both). I bought Bujingai solely because the main antagonist was modeled after Kamui Gakuto.

 

[Axolotl]

Sofar, only BioWare & Amaratnth make RPGs with both stories & characters I can really sink my teeth into. Everything else does kinda come off as "the same thing with a different look."

I take it you've never played a Black Isle game?

 

[likalaruku]

Sofar, only BioWare & Amaratnth make RPGs with both stories & characters I can really sink my teeth into. Everything else does kinda come off as "the same thing with a different look."

I take it you've never played a Black Isle game?

Oh, I forgot to add that one. In fact, I was lumping some of their games in with BioWares when I was thinking about it.

 

[boholikeu]

Star Ocean Til The End of Time as a closely linked gameplay and story would have done nothing for that game. Same as FFIX or FFVII your choices in the game had very little impact on the whole story and that didn't do anything to hamper the experience. In fact it allows you to concetrate on the story without worrying that your actions early on might some horrible reprecussions later. An example of horrible reprecussion could be the Nuke in Megaton and using it to blow up Megaton before you've Moira's quest which would be a kick in the teeth as that is a good quest. Same as in FFX no matter what decision you make it has no overall effect on the main story so your losing on anything.

I don't see why a choice system or something that you gotten in gameplay could be used to improve any of those games. I never thought when I playing them I wish had more choice or I wish I could have a bigger personal effect on the story. I liked the stories the way they were. I didn't think in Star Ocean that I wish I could have chose what side I was on in the war on EilcoorII. Basically every JRPG does this so there are plenty of examples when seperating is good. Although Tales Of Vesperia would be an example where it is integrated but also good.

You still don't understand that melding story and gameplay doesn't necessarily mean you have to make the story open-ended. Heck, I even gave you the example earlier about HalF Life 2's story being totally linear yet still being communicated largely through gameplay.

Hm, let me try to put it another way: I want the actions I do in game to match the story. Protecting the environment is a common theme in many JRPGs, so why am I encouraged to kill random animals for xp? Why is that sometimes my only option?

I also want to learn the story through gameplay. Rather than a big cut-scene explaining what a world is like, tell me through mechanics. I don't need an NPC in Fallout 3 to tell me the surface is still highly irradiated because I already know that from the "radiation poisoning" debuff.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Star Ocean Til The End of Time as a closely linked gameplay and story would have done nothing for that game. Same as FFIX or FFVII your choices in the game had very little impact on the whole story and that didn't do anything to hamper the experience. In fact it allows you to concetrate on the story without worrying that your actions early on might some horrible reprecussions later. An example of horrible reprecussion could be the Nuke in Megaton and using it to blow up Megaton before you've Moira's quest which would be a kick in the teeth as that is a good quest. Same as in FFX no matter what decision you make it has no overall effect on the main story so your losing on anything.

I don't see why a choice system or something that you gotten in gameplay could be used to improve any of those games. I never thought when I playing them I wish had more choice or I wish I could have a bigger personal effect on the story. I liked the stories the way they were. I didn't think in Star Ocean that I wish I could have chose what side I was on in the war on EilcoorII. Basically every JRPG does this so there are plenty of examples when seperating is good. Although Tales Of Vesperia would be an example where it is integrated but also good.

You still don't understand that melding story and gameplay doesn't necessarily mean you have to make the story open-ended. Heck, I even gave you the example earlier about HalF Life 2's story being totally linear yet still being communicated largely through gameplay.

Hm, let me try to put it another way: I want the actions I do in game to match the story. Protecting the environment is a common theme in many JRPGs, so why am I encouraged to kill random animals for xp? Why is that sometimes my only option?

I also want to learn the story through gameplay. Rather than a big cut-scene explaining what a world is like, tell me through mechanics. I don't need an NPC in Fallout 3 to tell me the surface is still highly irradiated because I already know that from the "radiation poisoning" debuff.

I know what your saying but you're not exactly giving any examples of how this can be changed for the better in JRPGs. If you want to use the HF2 example and go that root that is in so many JRPGs you just have to look for it in the cut scenes. Just because it isn't spoon fed to you doesn't mean it isn't there. What I thought you meant was that your actions affected story. With the way FPS do it while it works for them. They literally stick their fingers in your nose and drag you through it with scripted events and what it does with HF2 you are forced to see it whether you want to or not. With JRPGs you have to actually watch the cut scene and think about it for yourself.

Not that aspects were told or seen by your actions. I think on the grand scale isn't a problem with JRPGs as main ones can usually do this only bad games in generaly don't do this. With the way JRPGs are currently being done I don't see how it can be done in the way you want it unless they go for a more Kingdom Hearts style gameplay. Also no one says you have to kill the wild animals attacking you but that is generally what someone does when a wild animal attacks them so I don't see a problem with that.

 

[boholikeu]

I know what your saying but you're not exactly giving any examples of how this can be changed for the better in JRPGs. If you want to use the HF2 example and go that root that is in so many JRPGs you just have to look for it in the cut scenes. Just because it isn't spoon fed to you doesn't mean it isn't there. What I thought you meant was that your actions affected story. With the way FPS do it while it works for them. They literally stick their fingers in your nose and drag you through it with scripted events and what it does with HF2 you are forced to see it whether you want to or not. With JRPGs you have to actually watch the cut scene and think about it for yourself.

Not that aspects were told or seen by your actions. I think on the grand scale isn't a problem with JRPGs as main ones can usually do this only bad games in generaly don't do this. With the way JRPGs are currently being done I don't see how it can be done in the way you want it unless they go for a more Kingdom Hearts style gameplay. Also no one says you have to kill the wild animals attacking you but that is generally what someone does when a wild animal attacks them so I don't see a problem with that.

Alright, it's pretty clear that you still aren't getting my point. FPS games aren't the ones dragging you around by the nose, force-feeding you exposition. That honor goes JRPGs. There is nothing subtle about a cutscene. It's the video game equivalent of a film scrolling text across the screen that says "This guy is evil!!!" or "Just in case you can't tell, they are in love".

Check out this article: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_236/6999-Gordon-Freeman-Private-Eye It's a pretty good outline of one technique HL2 uses to tell its story (and no, it's not through scripted scenes. Those are the FPS equivalent of a cinematic).

 

[Tri Force95]

So, another guy with an Art Degree thinking he can judge stuff? To think we just had a guy with Halo (although I olve Halo, and he only said good stuff), and now this.

Anyway, I love JRPGs just as much as Western ones.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

snip

Yes Half Life is good in this regard but FPS games as a genre aren't and JRPGs are a lot more subtle than most FPS. Yes there some bad ones which are the ones you focusing on but there other where out of gameplay experiences like dialog and cut scenes are used in this manner to tell a bigger story. Like the scene with the Turks in Gongaga and then the following scene the town with the required party members.

Besides you could at least say how JRPGs can improve on this. As you're just outlining what you perceive as a problem and no solution.

 

[boholikeu]

Yes Half Life is good in this regard but FPS games as a genre aren't and JRPGs are a lot more subtle than most FPS. Yes there some bad ones which are the ones you focusing on but there other where out of gameplay experiences like dialog and cut scenes are used in this manner to tell a bigger story. Like the scene with the Turks in Gongaga and then the following scene the town with the required party members.

Besides you could at least say how JRPGs can improve on this. As you're just outlining what you perceive as a problem and no solution.

Well, I used to think HL2 was alone in this regard, but lately after reading some dev journals and replaying a good amount of recent FPS games I was surprised at how common it is to integrate story into mechanics/level design/etc. Of course you see it in titles like Portal and Bioshock, but even brain dead shooters like Halo are doing it now (albeit not to the extent of better games).

Anyway, I guess the reason I've been speaking pretty generally is because the solution differs for each individual game. Too many cut-scenes because you want to really develop the characters? Do so through a dialogue mini-game instead. Or show the character's personality through the controls, their combat style, etc. Too many cut-scenes because you're trying to deliver exposition about the game world? Put it all into environmental details instead, or a mission objective, or heck, even a playable flashback.

Some JRPGs already do this of course, just not as many as I would like. Demon's Souls and the Persona series are pretty good examples of where the genre should be heading.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Yes Half Life is good in this regard but FPS games as a genre aren't and JRPGs are a lot more subtle than most FPS. Yes there some bad ones which are the ones you focusing on but there other where out of gameplay experiences like dialog and cut scenes are used in this manner to tell a bigger story. Like the scene with the Turks in Gongaga and then the following scene the town with the required party members.

Besides you could at least say how JRPGs can improve on this. As you're just outlining what you perceive as a problem and no solution.

Well, I used to think HL2 was alone in this regard, but lately after reading some dev journals and replaying a good amount of recent FPS games I was surprised at how common it is to integrate story into mechanics/level design/etc. Of course you see it in titles like Portal and Bioshock, but even brain dead shooters like Halo are doing it now (albeit not to the extent of better games).

Anyway, I guess the reason I've been speaking pretty generally is because the solution differs for each individual game. Too many cut-scenes because you want to really develop the characters? Do so through a dialogue mini-game instead. Or show the character's personality through the controls, their combat style, etc. Too many cut-scenes because you're trying to deliver exposition about the game world? Put it all into environmental details instead, or a mission objective, or heck, even a playable flashback.

Some JRPGs already do this of course, just not as many as I would like. Demon's Souls and the Persona series are pretty good examples of where the genre should be heading.

Yes I suppose this is a waiting game at this point but I really think that SquareEnix and Capcom have gotten the message I just think it is seeing if anything comes out of so I'm hoping the new FF is an example of this.

 

[boholikeu]

Yes I suppose this is a waiting game at this point but I really think that SquareEnix and Capcom have gotten the message I just think it is seeing if anything comes out of so I'm hoping the new FF is an example of this.

Yup, here's hoping. Some of the features in the new FF sound like they are heading in the right direction. I won't be the first one on the street to buy the game, but if the reviews look good enough perhaps I'll the JRPGs another chance.

 

[Aanorith]

I've bin losing faith in a decent JRPG for a long time. When I bought Star Ocean 4, which I was genuinly looking forward to. I was.. crushed, offended, angry at how bad it was. It was every JRGP chiche that existed in one game. I was amazed. The women being.. soldiers of sort.. bikini hotpants cleavage armor. Terrible voice-acting. Ending being predictable miles away. No likable characters. Ugh, just thinking about it makes me depressed I spent like 100$ for it.

I have nothing to contribute to this topic, JRPG is dying in my eyes. That's all I have to say.

 

[mega48man]

(i'm shocked at how fast you replied, get off the computer and get back to studying)
japanese rock? wtf? that's blasphmey, heavy metal ftw.

i see you had a wide group of friends, but i doubt you were one of those kids who were overly obsessed over anime. there probably isn't such a great divide amogst the cliques at your high school than there are at mine. here, you either have friends or you're known for watching anime. that's how my society has labeled it. my old high school, the one i went to freshmen year, there wasn't a great divide in cliques, so it wasn't as socially inclined as the home high school.

to tell the truth, i used to be into anime freshmen year, but slowly lost interest towards the end of the year after xmas (when i got m first GH game GH3, that changed my life forever, love that game) when i went back to the home high school, i knew i had to sever all ties with anime or else i'd get picked on again. that idea worked and i've never been the same. instead of anime being my hobbie, i quickly got into rock and heavy metal. it kind of stepped in and replaced anime right when i dropped it.

you're lucky that the people in your area are normal, we don't get that here. if you don't conform to society, you're labeled, and that's the worst thing that can happen b/c that label is not gonna come off even if hell freezes over.

[start quote] Are you aware of holiday break? Yeah I'm in the middle of that.

Oh and J-Rock is fantastic. Metal's kinda meh. At least J-Rock has some variation. I can show anyone J-Metal band Maximum the Hormone and they'll think they're from America since you can't tell what anyone's saying in metal anyways. Not saying that metal's bad, just kinda samesy. Except for Daisuke Ishiwatari, all metal guitar tracks composed by him are fantastic.

At any rate, I'm de-railing the thread even though it's kinda dead. I'm sorry the people at your high school are intolerant assholes. Maybe you'll have better luck in college and actually be able to say you liked anime once without being judged.[/quote]



wtf? sorry this is late, i saw 1000 messages in my inbox and decided to check.

if you think good heavy metal is samesy, you're probably not listening to heavy metal. i find it ironic that you say that b/c every asian singer i've heard sounds EXACTLY THE SAME.

dio, bruce dickinson, lemmy killmister, dave mustaine, rob halford, ozzy osbourne, all of these guys have unique and extremely different voices, styles of singing, and music all together. not only that, if you google metal genres, you will get over-run with almost 100 genres. does Slipknot sounds anything like Iron Maiden? or does Dethklok sound like ozzy osbourne? how about Napalm death and motley crue?

the moral of the story is don't knock till you try it (that's not the same case for anal though) and yes, this sounds very hypocrytical of me to say (not the anal thing) a friend of mine got me to look at some japanese bands, i didn't like them. there was no METAL. it's just about music but also about style. rob halford rides on stage on a sick looking motorcycle, Iron maiden sometimes has a robotic eddie walk on stage, and ozzy is "the prince of darkness" for metal's sake! if you haven't played brutal legend yet, please do, it summarizes my entire argument through shock and awe.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

JRPGs are objectively bad art

There is no such thing "objectively bad art." Art is by definition subjective.

I really never understood why people make threads like this. Trying to empirically prove that a game or a genre is bad. It's completely pointless because when it comes to the quality of art, there is no right or wrong. It's all opinion.


I also enjoy how, throughout you're entire article, you talk about how bad JRPGs are, and yet you only use two examples of bad JRPG's. One of which you admit to only playing one hour of.

I take exception to this. See, most art is subjective. Storytelling is not one of those arts. See, a dude named Carl Jung talked about this thing called "The Collective Unconscious." Basically, he said that on some deep and intrinsic level, most people actually like the same things. Its the reason we have story archetypes that cross ethnic groups, languages, and nations.

Ever notice how people can look at a painting and go "eh, not my thing?", but a huge group of people can come to a consensus on whether or not a story is good or bad, like the Star Wars Prequel? That's because as human beings storytelling is innate and universal. A bad story is a bad story. You can't just look at a real awful movie like Star Wars Episode I or whatever and go "well I can't make fun of this movie because art is subjective." It's just an objectively shitty movie for a number of easily discernible reasons [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI&feature=related]. I have the same problem with most JRPGs.

i dont believe this, as i love bioware games and the stories they have created (especially the kotor story), while i have a good 10-12 gamer friends who think all the games are not good at all, especially some of the stories they dont like, however when it comes to Diablo II, i like the game but think the story is stupid and they are opposite and get into the story like no other

now that was a small summary of my reasoning but people have different tastes for a reason, while you might not like star wars 1-3, i didn't mind them at all, especially episode I,

Why is it people always compare JRPGs to WRPGs? they are two different genres despite their names. You praise FF7 even though it is one of the games that contributed to the downfall of JRPGs it got rid of well rounded likable characters and good story (see FF6) for a darker kind of story with flat characters.

WRPGs may be about exploration and choices but JRPGs are about story telling and gameplay (remember they are two different genres) you say you love FF7 but it has pretty low exploration even for a JRPG.



Also what would your art degree have to do with any of this?

I feel like I have been trolled...

What the hell are you talking about? How did FFVII get rid of well rounded and likable characters?

very true. i think he is just having ff6 (3) nostalgia, as do most people who are elitsts about it

personally i liked alot of the characters in ff7, and thought they were perfectly relatable and easy to get into

now note, i like ff7, but i do agree that ff6 does have a better fleshed out story, i wish there was a better remake of it as i loathe 2D final fantasy games

 

[LWS666]

the escapist is probably the only site i know where you can say you're a cross dressing drag queen without getting flamed or banned.

good ol' escapist.

 

[Entropyutd]

with an Art Degree and while that does make my opinion more valid than yours. those are two very separate things.

This is the point I burst out laughing.
Funniest post ever!

 

[Darkenwrath]

TEH FURY! but seriously, JRPGs I could never get into I agree with most of those problems but most people play them for story more than gameplay.