I liked Star Wars:TFA but....characterization

[BloatedGuppy]

She was shown the Force by Ren as a weapon. Not how to use it herself.

Quoted the wrong guy. And as to the bolded part, you don't know this.

 

[Orga777]

So she was well-trained at like five years old to do Force abilities on the level of a fully trained Jedi Knight after only a couple seconds of trying? Cause that is the only thing the "evidence" would point to. :/

This is the kind of thing that just makes me exasperated discussing this character. There's no such thing as reasoned debate or criticism. It's all absurd hyperbole. She's not talented or resourceful, she's THE BEST AT EVERYTHING. She doesn't have two exchanges with Han on his ship, she KNOWS THE FALCON BETTER THAN HAN AND SCHOOLS HIM ON FLYING IT. She doesn't overcome adversity, she NEVER FACES ADVERSITY AT ALL. She doesn't get rescued even during her clear rescue, she WOULD HAVE RESCUED HERSELF EVENTUALLY WITHOUT ASSISTANCE. She doesn't barely overcome a badly wounded, partially trained and emotionally erratic Kylo Ren, she EASILY DEFEATS A SITH LORD. She doesn't show evidence of being an atypically powerful force sensitive, she's A FULLY TRAINED JEDI KNIGHT.

Even if I had some concerns about her characterization, they'd be drowned out by the vociferous Rey-haters. And let's be clear, this wasn't a gritty historical drama, this is an ongoing space fantasy in which mystical forces are perpetually employed by the writers as ass-pulls and the Rule of Cool outweighs narrative exposition by a ratio of about 100:1. In this environment, I'm to believe this character is canon-shattering and cannot be believed.

To quote your pre-edit post..."Okay, bro".

I don't hate Rey. She is just too perfect with the Force for me to get involved with her character right now. If she didn't get into the fight at the end, I wouldn't even complain a whole lot about her (except for the Jedi Mind Trick thing.) I also don't care if Ren is still learning himself and was wounded. He shouldn't have trouble with an untrained combatant that just learned what a Lightsaber is in the first place, and had literally nobody guiding her with how to use the Force. Kylo Ren was able to stop blaster bolts in mid-air. He was able to wipe out Luke's new Jedi Order without anyone even hurting him. And he didn't just lose, he was completely humiliated against Rey. Like he never got into a fight before. These are fair complaints. I actually bought into her resourcefulness on board the Falcon. I just wrote that stuff off as her experience dealing with technology on a daily basis, so she understands the basic fundamentals of how a ship would work and how to pilot one. Almost all my complaints come into how she uses the Force better than any other fresh Jedi we have ever seen before with no real training showing how to do anything. It just doesn't work for me. It would be like Luke just doing everything all on his own in A New Hope after a couple minutes of training with Obi-Wan. I just doesn't work.

Also, your complete dismissal of this being an action adventure space fantasy as an excuse for poorly implemented writing is not going to work on me.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

He was able to wipe out Luke's new Jedi Order without anyone even hurting him.

He had help for that. You see him and all the assembled knights during Rey's Force vision. During which, by the way, it looks very much like she is cowering on the ground with a weapon coming for her head when Kylo Ren kills the man swinging at her. Which would have placed her at the "school" among the Padawans.

And he didn't just lose, he was completely humiliated against Rey.

He hammered her back to a cliff and had her teetering on the brink of death. Finn was totally humiliated. Kylo Ren lost a fight.

These are fair complaints.

They're overstated complaints. The bowcaster is forecast FIVE TIMES (I counted on second viewing) as an EXCEPTIONALLY POWERFUL WEAPON that BLOWS PEOPLE OFF THEIR FEET. He gets shot in the stomach with one, we watch it happen. We later watch him pounding the wound to wind up his anger, spattering blood everywhere. He didn't get nicked with a blaster. A lot of time and effort was put into establishing that bowcaster. It's not a "Meh" injury. Neither is Snoke's command to "bring the girl to me" or Kylo's insistence on capturing Rey so he can train her irrelevant to the events.

If it helps, I think it would have been more interesting if Rey had taken a wound during that fight as well. I do, however, think they're trying to communicate something about Rey, and her "turning on" that way is part of it.

I actually bought into her resourcefulness on board the Falcon.

I was fine with all of it (frankly, it's all very well covered) with the possible exception of her beginning the sentence that Han ends. I'm not one with the "REY IS THE BEST PILOT IN THE GALAXY WARRRRGARBLE" crowd, but I do think her technical wizardry had been sufficiently established. There's such a thing as overkill.

Almost all my complaints come into how she uses the Force better than any other fresh Jedi we have ever seen before with no real training showing how to do anything. It just doesn't work for me.

And all I can say is...there's a ton of evidence that there's a lot going on with Rey. If she was positioned as a random force sensitive kid I'd agree. She's not.

Also, your complete dismissal of this being an action adventure space fantasy as an excuse for poorly implemented writing is not going to work on me.

1. I don't agree that the writing is poorly implemented
2. I'm calling attention to the fact that there's a large body of people who are perfectly comfortable with and will even vehemently defend Deus Ex Force-ina the previous films, and then balk at them at the beginning of this (unfinished) trilogy when confronted by a character we still know virtually nothing about. From Luke to Anakin to Revan we've had a parade of godlike Jedi whirling away at the center of mighty prophecies, and we're not just comfortable with it, we love it. We get chapter one of a three chapter series, and our mystery-riddled protagonist does some Force stuff, and it's all "FOUL, FOUL, IMPOSSIBLE!". You'll permit me a raised eyebrow.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Or using them to get the missiles over the exhaust port where they curve themselves. That would actually make sense given that if the computer was telling it where to curve, they could fire from any distance and it would curve. But they wait until they're a specific distance away before they fire, the missiles were likely on fuses.

Okay, this point has been bugging me more and more whenever you bring it up and I cant take it anymore.

Why the hell would an engineer design a missile -a weapon almost exclusively meant for three dimensional air to air combat- in such a way that it automatically turns downward after a set amount of time?

That just doesnt make any sense. It completely negates the weapon's primary purpose of taking out aircraft or aircraft-like spacecraft.

It has a fuse to do so? Apparently if you pay attention when they're going over the plan, the top of the exhaust port is covered so they can't shoot in straight (I know I never personally noticed). So perhaps they engineered these missiles specifically to do so?

But WHY do it that way? Now they have a bunch of missiles that are completely useless except for this one specific situation that only happens once in one mission and never happens ever again.

If we're going the route of "let's custom engineer a bunch of hyper-specialized missiles that are useless for anything but the target of this one mission alone," why wouldnt they program a custom Death Star targeting mode and upload it into all of the X-Wings' targeting computers?

Then you only have to do it once as opposed to like 16 times, one for each missile, AND you dont gimp the combat effectiveness of all of your fighters on the mission or any other future fighter that might have the misfortune to equip any leftover missiles later down the line.

But have we established that the targeting computer communicates with the missile in flight? What if guidance is already on the missiles?

EDIT: going by what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind.

That's literally the entire point behind a targeting computer. How do you think it's supposed to work, the computer takes an intended target, calculates a velocity vector that intersects with the target, downloads it to the missile and THEN fires it without communicating with it after that point? Such a weapon could be trivially defeated by the just changing their velocity vector, an advanced dog-fighting technique also known as "Moving literally anywhere else."

Unless the missile itself was smart. Remember the targeting computer is also used for dummy shots like the lasers.

EDIT: Of course Guppy is right that it's mostly overthinking what's going on.

Didnt you just state that you were basing the entire premise on "what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind."?

So GPS and laser guidance are out, but smart missiles arent?

Computers miniaturized and cheap enough to be disposable? Easy. Having a missile see a laser pointer? Preposterous.

How is it any more preposterous than cheap tiny computers to a 70s audience?

Because they were watching computers getting miniaturized by then. The Apple I and Commodore Pet were already out by the time the movie came out.

So that's one half. What's the other?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, laser guidance wasn't a thing for a couple of decades and GPS wasn't happening until the 90's (not that GPS would even be useful in the context of the Deathstar run).

Well, you are mistaken. The first laser guided bomb was created in 1968, and were first used operationally in 1972.

Ah, so it is. Of course, that wouldn't be useful in the trench run either unless the missiles were programmed to curve anyway since light travels in a straight line as well.

 

[Orga777]

He had help for that. You see him and all the assembled knights during Rey's Force vision. During which, by the way, it looks very much like she is cowering on the ground with a weapon coming for her head when Kylo Ren kills the man swinging at her. Which would have placed her at the "school" among the Padawans.

Fair point. But he still didn't receive a single wound. Unless he didn't fight anybody. Even with help this seems unlikely.

He hammered her back to a cliff and had her teetering on the brink of death. Finn was totally humiliated. Kylo Ren lost a fight.

And then she gained a second wind and blasted his butt like she was some Shonen anime character. It was a very ehh moment. If she lost the fight but still wounded him, I would have been more okay with that. Heck even if there was no decision before the planet breaking apart separates them before they can finish, I would have been okay with. But that isn't what happened. She won when she really shouldn't have.

They're overstated complaints. The bowcaster is forecast FIVE TIMES (I counted on second viewing) as an EXCEPTIONALLY POWERFUL WEAPON that BLOWS PEOPLE OFF THEIR FEET. He gets shot in the stomach with one, we watch it happen. We later watch him pounding the wound to wind up his anger, spattering blood everywhere. He didn't get nicked with a blaster. A lot of time and effort was put into establishing that bowcaster. It's not a "Meh" injury. Neither is Snoke's command to "bring the girl to me" or Kylo's insistence on capturing Rey so he can train her irrelevant to the events.

Oh, I know all that. The Bowcaster is awesome. However, even wounded, a seasoned Force sensitive, even if still a Padawan himself, shouldn't lose to a greenhorn that doesn't even fully understand the powers she has right now. It underminds his presence too much to take him seriously and makes him look weak.

And all I can say is...there's a ton of evidence that there's a lot going on with Rey. If she was positioned as a random force sensitive kid I'd agree. She's not.

And there was a ton going on with Anakin in the Prequels, but even those horrendously written movies didn't have him winning fights he had no business winning against higher trained combatants.

1. I don't agree that the writing is poorly implemented
2. I'm calling attention to the fact that there's a large body of people who are perfectly comfortable with and will even vehemently defend Deus Ex Force-ina the previous films, and then balk at them at the beginning of this (unfinished) trilogy when confronted by a character we still know virtually nothing about. From Luke to Anakin to Revan we've had a parade of godlike Jedi whirling away at the center of mighty prophecies, and we're not just comfortable with it, we love it. We get chapter one of a three chapter series, and our mystery-riddled protagonist does some Force stuff, and it's all "FOUL, FOUL, IMPOSSIBLE!". You'll permit me a raised eyebrow.

Luke and Anakin never mastered the Jedi Mind Trick in seconds with no real training, and neither of them were able to out-duel force adepts in their first real fights. Neither of them were able to out Force their higher trained opponents either, like Rey did to Ren. It is all about implementation. If she did all this in the second film, I would be all for it and without a single real complaint. But she mastered abilities that usually takes time for Jedi-in-training all on her own in no real time or effort put in. That is what I have a problem with.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Or using them to get the missiles over the exhaust port where they curve themselves. That would actually make sense given that if the computer was telling it where to curve, they could fire from any distance and it would curve. But they wait until they're a specific distance away before they fire, the missiles were likely on fuses.

Okay, this point has been bugging me more and more whenever you bring it up and I cant take it anymore.

Why the hell would an engineer design a missile -a weapon almost exclusively meant for three dimensional air to air combat- in such a way that it automatically turns downward after a set amount of time?

That just doesnt make any sense. It completely negates the weapon's primary purpose of taking out aircraft or aircraft-like spacecraft.

It has a fuse to do so? Apparently if you pay attention when they're going over the plan, the top of the exhaust port is covered so they can't shoot in straight (I know I never personally noticed). So perhaps they engineered these missiles specifically to do so?

But WHY do it that way? Now they have a bunch of missiles that are completely useless except for this one specific situation that only happens once in one mission and never happens ever again.

If we're going the route of "let's custom engineer a bunch of hyper-specialized missiles that are useless for anything but the target of this one mission alone," why wouldnt they program a custom Death Star targeting mode and upload it into all of the X-Wings' targeting computers?

Then you only have to do it once as opposed to like 16 times, one for each missile, AND you dont gimp the combat effectiveness of all of your fighters on the mission or any other future fighter that might have the misfortune to equip any leftover missiles later down the line.

But have we established that the targeting computer communicates with the missile in flight? What if guidance is already on the missiles?

EDIT: going by what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind.

That's literally the entire point behind a targeting computer. How do you think it's supposed to work, the computer takes an intended target, calculates a velocity vector that intersects with the target, downloads it to the missile and THEN fires it without communicating with it after that point? Such a weapon could be trivially defeated by the just changing their velocity vector, an advanced dog-fighting technique also known as "Moving literally anywhere else."

Unless the missile itself was smart. Remember the targeting computer is also used for dummy shots like the lasers.

EDIT: Of course Guppy is right that it's mostly overthinking what's going on.

Didnt you just state that you were basing the entire premise on "what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind."?

So GPS and laser guidance are out, but smart missiles arent?

Computers miniaturized and cheap enough to be disposable? Easy. Having a missile see a laser pointer? Preposterous.

How is it any more preposterous than cheap tiny computers to a 70s audience?

Because they were watching computers getting miniaturized by then. The Apple I and Commodore Pet were already out by the time the movie came out.

So that's one half. What's the other?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, laser guidance wasn't a thing for a couple of decades and GPS wasn't happening until the 90's (not that GPS would even be useful in the context of the Deathstar run).

Well, you are mistaken. The first laser guided bomb was created in 1968, and were first used operationally in 1972.

Ah, so it is. Of course, that wouldn't be useful in the trench run either unless the missiles were programmed to curve anyway since light travels in a straight line as well.

A: It never specifically states that the X-Wings use lasers. There are plenty of options it could use.

B: What, you mean something a targeting computer might be used for?

Before we continue on, do you believe Luke used telekinesis to curve the missiles mid flight?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Fair point. But he still didn't receive a single wound. Unless he didn't fight anybody. Even with help this seems unlikely.

We have no idea if he gets wounded or not. We see the aftermath of the battle and that's it. Given the characterization of the event by Han, it's very likely it was ambush and murder, not a bunch of Jedi duels. And being a Skywalker himself, Kylo was probably more dangerous than the rest of the force sensitives by order of magnitude. Save one, which it looks very likely he spared.

And then she gained a second wind and blasted his butt like she was some Shonen anime character. It was a very ehh moment. If she lost the fight but still wounded him, I would have been more okay with that. Heck even if there was no decision before the planet breaking apart separates them before they can finish, I would have been okay with. But that isn't what happened. She won when she really shouldn't have.

That wasn't a second wind, that was her clearing her mind and letting the Force guide her, much as Ben and Yoda continually instruct Luke to do. That is the focus of ALL his training, on "clearing his mind". Kylo Ren's is anything but clear, he's a cluster fuck of rage and confusion.

Oh, I know all that. The Bowcaster is awesome. However, even wounded, a seasoned Force sensitive, even if still a Padawan himself, shouldn't lose to a greenhorn that doesn't even fully understand the powers she has right now. It underminds his presence too much to take him seriously and makes him look weak.

Well, I do not concur. I think he's a fascinating villain. He was given plenty of strength beats to moderate his one defeat (at the hands of a trio of primary characters, no less, after murdering a fourth). We've come to have ludicrously high standards for our villains if he doesn't constitute a genuine threat because he lost while wounded to the only other Force Sensitive in the galaxy as ridiculously OP as him.

And there was a ton going on with Anakin in the Prequels, but even those horrendously written movies didn't have him winning fights he had no business winning against higher trained combatants.

...

...

"Let's try spinning, that's a good trick!".

Dude he literally blows up the Droid Control ship and ends the entire conflict in the first film.

Luke and Anakin never mastered the Jedi Mind Trick in seconds with no real training

Who "trained" Luke to use the Jedi mind trick? Both his teachers were dead. Did he practice it? How? Do you do Jedi Mind Trick reps until you get good at it? I've said before and I'll say again, the notion that Jedi go to Jedi School to level up and unlock new Jedi powers is ludicrous, and one of the stupidest things in the prequels/EU. In OT mythology, it was all a question of how Force Sensitive you were, and how much of that power you can tap into at any given moment through clarity and connection to the Force. Yoda tells Luke to lift his ship out of the swamp. He doesn't say "First practice Force Lift for many months, you must, starting with small rocks". He wants him to lift the ship and is dismayed when he can't. He doesn't hand wave it as the logical limitation of an "untrained Jedi", it's clear he thinks its caused by an unfocused and emotionally compromised mind.

Neither of them were able to out Force their higher trained opponents either, like Rey did to Ren.

Ren knocks Rey the fuck out TWICE in the film. She only "out forces" him once, after a very long fight that she was steadily losing.

I'll say this...she definitely needs a higher grade of adversity in the second film, to avoid "Superman" syndrome. I don't want another Legolas/Gimli/Aragorn situation where the protagonist breezes through opponents like wheat for an entire trilogy. I don't argue she's a perfect character. I simply argue that her flaws get overstated by her detractors, which isn't something happening for ANY of the other principles (aside from perhaps Kylo Ren, although I might be defensive about him on the grounds of my belief he's the best character we've seen in these films to date), nor is that degree of fussiness applied to other escapist cinema (Superhero films being primary culprits in the "OP protagonist" territory, it seems to be considered part and parcel of the genre).

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Or using them to get the missiles over the exhaust port where they curve themselves. That would actually make sense given that if the computer was telling it where to curve, they could fire from any distance and it would curve. But they wait until they're a specific distance away before they fire, the missiles were likely on fuses.

Okay, this point has been bugging me more and more whenever you bring it up and I cant take it anymore.

Why the hell would an engineer design a missile -a weapon almost exclusively meant for three dimensional air to air combat- in such a way that it automatically turns downward after a set amount of time?

That just doesnt make any sense. It completely negates the weapon's primary purpose of taking out aircraft or aircraft-like spacecraft.

It has a fuse to do so? Apparently if you pay attention when they're going over the plan, the top of the exhaust port is covered so they can't shoot in straight (I know I never personally noticed). So perhaps they engineered these missiles specifically to do so?

But WHY do it that way? Now they have a bunch of missiles that are completely useless except for this one specific situation that only happens once in one mission and never happens ever again.

If we're going the route of "let's custom engineer a bunch of hyper-specialized missiles that are useless for anything but the target of this one mission alone," why wouldnt they program a custom Death Star targeting mode and upload it into all of the X-Wings' targeting computers?

Then you only have to do it once as opposed to like 16 times, one for each missile, AND you dont gimp the combat effectiveness of all of your fighters on the mission or any other future fighter that might have the misfortune to equip any leftover missiles later down the line.

But have we established that the targeting computer communicates with the missile in flight? What if guidance is already on the missiles?

EDIT: going by what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind.

That's literally the entire point behind a targeting computer. How do you think it's supposed to work, the computer takes an intended target, calculates a velocity vector that intersects with the target, downloads it to the missile and THEN fires it without communicating with it after that point? Such a weapon could be trivially defeated by the just changing their velocity vector, an advanced dog-fighting technique also known as "Moving literally anywhere else."

Unless the missile itself was smart. Remember the targeting computer is also used for dummy shots like the lasers.

EDIT: Of course Guppy is right that it's mostly overthinking what's going on.

Didnt you just state that you were basing the entire premise on "what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind."?

So GPS and laser guidance are out, but smart missiles arent?

Computers miniaturized and cheap enough to be disposable? Easy. Having a missile see a laser pointer? Preposterous.

How is it any more preposterous than cheap tiny computers to a 70s audience?

Because they were watching computers getting miniaturized by then. The Apple I and Commodore Pet were already out by the time the movie came out.

So that's one half. What's the other?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, laser guidance wasn't a thing for a couple of decades and GPS wasn't happening until the 90's (not that GPS would even be useful in the context of the Deathstar run).

Well, you are mistaken. The first laser guided bomb was created in 1968, and were first used operationally in 1972.

Ah, so it is. Of course, that wouldn't be useful in the trench run either unless the missiles were programmed to curve anyway since light travels in a straight line as well.

A: It never specifically states that the X-Wings use lasers. There are plenty of options it could use.

B: What, you mean something a targeting computer might be used for?

Before we continue on, do you believe Luke used telekinesis to curve the missiles mid flight?

It's been a while since I saw the movie, but that sounds about right. I do remember the trajectory being a little too tight for it to be natural.

Then why does Luke suck at telekinesis in the next movie? Why did Luke's force training in that movie focus on sensing his surroundings? Why did everyone who talked about the difficulty of the mission mention how hard it was going to be to aim? If your complaint is that missiles with inbuilt guidance are inefficient, are you going to complain that there even is an exhaust port on the Deathstar? Is it venting hot gas? Where does the gas come from? Do they get more of it? There are plenty of inefficiencies in both military organizations. Could it be that the missiles aren't radio controlled because they could be defeated by throwing up a bunch of radio waves to drown out the signal?

 

[Orga777]

That wasn't a second wind, that was her clearing her mind and letting the Force guide her, much as Ben and Yoda continually instruct Luke to do. That is the focus of ALL his training, on "clearing his mind". Kylo Ren's is anything but clear, he's a cluster fuck of rage and confusion.

Rage won the duel for Luke in Jedi. Sith always fight with rage. Her clearing her mind shouldn't just give her an instant win against someone better trained than herself. It just... bothers me.

Well, I do not concur. I think he's a fascinating villain. He was given plenty of strength beats to moderate his one defeat (at the hands of a trio of primary characters, no less, after murdering a fourth). We've come to have ludicrously high standards for our villains if he doesn't constitute a genuine threat because he lost while wounded to the only other Force Sensitive in the galaxy as ridiculously OP as him.

Oh, he is a good character, but his threat level is borderline non-existant. If Luke gets involved, he would be crushed like a grape. Also, a Force Sensitive that has no real training shouldn't just automatically be OP. Luke was pathetic till Jedi, afterall.

"Let's try spinning, that's a good trick!".

Dude he literally blows up the Droid Control ship and ends the entire conflict in the first film.

As horrendous as that scene in question is, that isn't nearly as problematic when it comes to the use of the Force. Anakin was an established pilot in the beginning with that horribly drawn out Podrace scene, and while the Force was being used without his knowledge, it has less to do with using the Force to win battles rather than pilot instincts being used. There was no scene showing Rey should be mastering Force abilities with no effort put into it with limited to no training to do so. Also, the fact Anakin blew up the ship makes no sense. The ship has shields... How the heck did he even get in there? God, Episode I sucks...

Who "trained" Luke to use the Jedi mind trick? Both his teachers were dead. Did he practice it? How? Do you do Jedi Mind Trick reps until you get good at it? I've said before and I'll say again, the notion that Jedi go to Jedi School to level up and unlock new Jedi powers is ludicrous, and one of the stupidest things in the prequels/EU. In OT mythology, it was all a question of how Force Sensitive you were, and how much of that power you can tap into at any given moment through clarity and connection to the Force. Yoda tells Luke to lift his ship out of the swamp. He doesn't say "First practice Force Lift for many months, you must, starting with small rocks". He wants him to lift the ship and is dismayed when he can't. He doesn't hand wave it as the logical limitation of an "untrained Jedi", it's clear he thinks its caused by an unfocused and emotionally compromised mind.

It doesn't matter how he learned the Jedi mind Trick. The fact is that it took a lot of time to master. He didn't do it till Jedi, after two films, and a lot more meditating, training, and self discovery in between Empire and Jedi, while inside Obi-Wan's old house, which I am sure had some things laying around about the Jedi Order. Rey never trained as a Jedi in Episode VII. She shouldn't even understand the basics of the Force and what she is capable of right now.

Ren knocks Rey the fuck out TWICE in the film. She only "out forces" him once, after a very long fight that she was steadily losing.

I am talking about how she was able to take the Lightsaber away with a Force Pull when Kylo Ren was doing the same Force Pull on the same Lightsaber. That scene might bother me the most. XD

I'll say this...she definitely needs a higher grade of adversity in the second film, to avoid "Superman" syndrome. I don't want another Legolas/Gimli/Aragorn situation where the protagonist breezes through opponents like wheat for an entire trilogy. I don't argue she's a perfect character. I simply argue that her flaws get overstated by her detractors, which isn't something happening for ANY of the other principles (aside from perhaps Kylo Ren, although I might be defensive about him on the grounds of my belief he's the best character we've seen in these films to date), nor is that degree of fussiness applied to other escapist cinema (Superhero films being primary culprits in the "OP protagonist" territory, it seems to be considered part and parcel of the genre).

And I will agree with almost all of this. This movie got me excited for the future films, but on its own, it is just... okay. It isn't as good as any of the films in the original trilogy. Even ignoring the character issues i isn't as good as the original trilogy. There are just too many plot decisions that keep it constrained.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Rage won the duel for Luke in Jedi. Sith always fight with rage. Her clearing her mind shouldn't just give her an instant win against someone better trained than herself. It just... bothers me.

Single minded and focused rage. Kylo wasn't trying to kill her. If he had been, she'd likely have gone down much the same way Finn did. He wanted her submissive and under his control. And I'm pretty sure we're going to find out this isn't the first time he held back from killing her, too. She then wrong foots him and fights far better than he anticipates after her feeble attempts to use the saber like it was her staff, and gets himself in trouble. At that point, injuries and mental fraying compound and he gets banged up.

Is that what actually happened in the writer's head? Fucked if I know, but it's every bit as supportable a theory as "Rey is Super Saiyan".

Oh, he is a good character, but his threat level is borderline non-existant. If Luke gets involved, he would be crushed like a grape. Also, a Force Sensitive that has no real training shouldn't just automatically be OP. Luke was pathetic till Jedi, afterall.

Of the four primary protagonists in the film, he kills one, maims a second, knocks a third out twice and captures and tortures the fourth. He is dispatched by the team efforts of a legendary Wookie, a force sensitive prodigy, and a trained soldier. I'll say again...if this is an unthreatening villain, our standards for villains have gotten unsustainable.

As horrendous as that scene in question is, that isn't nearly as problematic when it comes to the use of the Force. Anakin was an established pilot in the beginning with that horribly drawn out Podrace scene, and while the Force was being used without his knowledge, it has less to do with using the Force to win battles rather than pilot instincts being used.

Qui-Gon makes it clear he's using the Force to see the future, allowing for his ridiculous feats as a pilot. That said, let's not waste any more time drawing parallels with the fucking Phantom Menace, I think we can both agree it was terrible and being better than the Phantom Menace shouldn't be an admirable accomplishment.

It doesn't matter how he learned the Jedi mind Trick. The fact is that it took a lot of time to master.

Well it absolutely does if we're going to quibble about the application of "training". Who trained him? Did he train himself? We can speculate 'it took a long time to master' but it all took place off-screen. For all we see as an audience, it works the first time he does it.

He didn't do it till Jedi, after two films, and a lot more meditating, training, and self discovery in between Empire and Jedi...

That is all head canon. None of that takes place on screen.

She shouldn't even understand the basics of the Force and what she is capable of right now.

"She's beginning to test her powers, with every minute that passes she grows more dangerous". Kylo Ren seems to think she represents a rapidly spiraling threat. Why would he think that about a noob Force User who needs months if not years of meditation, training and self discovery before she can use abilities?

There's two ways you can go with it. "The writers don't know what the fuck they're doing and have violated Star Wars in its Star Wars hole", or "This deliberately cloaked-in-mystery protagonist presented to us by a writer/director who fucking LOVES mysteries and misdirects is more than she initially seems".

I am talking about how she was able to take the Lightsaber away with a Force Pull when Kylo Ren was doing the same Force Pull on the same Lightsaber. That scene might bother me the most. XD

I always attributed that to Maz's quote about the saber "calling" to her. We can certainly say that we've never seen The Force applied in this way previously (IE a link between a specific Jedi and an object) but each film of the OT introduced new Force Powers and applications as required by the story. The same should be allowed for here.

And I will agree with almost all of this. This movie got me excited for the future films, but on its own, it is just... okay. It isn't as good as any of the films in the original trilogy. Even ignoring the character issues i isn't as good as the original trilogy. There are just too many plot decisions that keep it constrained.

I enjoyed it more than ROTJ (which outside of the excellent Luke/Vader beats is absolutely riddled with problems, some of them quite serious, and a few that served as warning signs for the prequels) and A New Hope (which is objectively a better, leaner film with a tighter focus, the new one just entertains me more thanks to modernity). Empire remains the best Star Wars film.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Or using them to get the missiles over the exhaust port where they curve themselves. That would actually make sense given that if the computer was telling it where to curve, they could fire from any distance and it would curve. But they wait until they're a specific distance away before they fire, the missiles were likely on fuses.

Okay, this point has been bugging me more and more whenever you bring it up and I cant take it anymore.

Why the hell would an engineer design a missile -a weapon almost exclusively meant for three dimensional air to air combat- in such a way that it automatically turns downward after a set amount of time?

That just doesnt make any sense. It completely negates the weapon's primary purpose of taking out aircraft or aircraft-like spacecraft.

It has a fuse to do so? Apparently if you pay attention when they're going over the plan, the top of the exhaust port is covered so they can't shoot in straight (I know I never personally noticed). So perhaps they engineered these missiles specifically to do so?

But WHY do it that way? Now they have a bunch of missiles that are completely useless except for this one specific situation that only happens once in one mission and never happens ever again.

If we're going the route of "let's custom engineer a bunch of hyper-specialized missiles that are useless for anything but the target of this one mission alone," why wouldnt they program a custom Death Star targeting mode and upload it into all of the X-Wings' targeting computers?

Then you only have to do it once as opposed to like 16 times, one for each missile, AND you dont gimp the combat effectiveness of all of your fighters on the mission or any other future fighter that might have the misfortune to equip any leftover missiles later down the line.

But have we established that the targeting computer communicates with the missile in flight? What if guidance is already on the missiles?

EDIT: going by what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind.

That's literally the entire point behind a targeting computer. How do you think it's supposed to work, the computer takes an intended target, calculates a velocity vector that intersects with the target, downloads it to the missile and THEN fires it without communicating with it after that point? Such a weapon could be trivially defeated by the just changing their velocity vector, an advanced dog-fighting technique also known as "Moving literally anywhere else."

Unless the missile itself was smart. Remember the targeting computer is also used for dummy shots like the lasers.

EDIT: Of course Guppy is right that it's mostly overthinking what's going on.

Didnt you just state that you were basing the entire premise on "what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind."?

So GPS and laser guidance are out, but smart missiles arent?

Computers miniaturized and cheap enough to be disposable? Easy. Having a missile see a laser pointer? Preposterous.

How is it any more preposterous than cheap tiny computers to a 70s audience?

Because they were watching computers getting miniaturized by then. The Apple I and Commodore Pet were already out by the time the movie came out.

So that's one half. What's the other?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, laser guidance wasn't a thing for a couple of decades and GPS wasn't happening until the 90's (not that GPS would even be useful in the context of the Deathstar run).

Well, you are mistaken. The first laser guided bomb was created in 1968, and were first used operationally in 1972.

Ah, so it is. Of course, that wouldn't be useful in the trench run either unless the missiles were programmed to curve anyway since light travels in a straight line as well.

A: It never specifically states that the X-Wings use lasers. There are plenty of options it could use.

B: What, you mean something a targeting computer might be used for?

Before we continue on, do you believe Luke used telekinesis to curve the missiles mid flight?

It's been a while since I saw the movie, but that sounds about right. I do remember the trajectory being a little too tight for it to be natural.

Then why does Luke suck at telekinesis in the next movie? Why did Luke's force training in that movie focus on sensing his surroundings? Why did everyone who talked about the difficulty of the mission mention how hard it was going to be to aim? If your complaint is that missiles with inbuilt guidance are inefficient, are you going to complain that there even is an exhaust port on the Deathstar? Is it venting hot gas? Where does the gas come from? Do they get more of it? There are plenty of inefficiencies in both military organizations. Could it be that the missiles aren't radio controlled because they could be defeated by throwing up a bunch of radio waves to drown out the signal?

The thing is, being aware of his surroundings doesn't change the fact that the missiles won't curve without their targeting system.

If it was a case of aiming fantastically, sure you could say he used the Force to aim, but physically curving would be impossible unless he used the Force to move them.

And I'm saying that it is absolutely reasonable to assume the missiles can curve without the targeting computer aboard the starfighter. You want the biggest nail in the coffin? If we assume that the targeting computer guides the missile mid flight, it would be reasonable to assume that the computer tells the missile when to detonate (it would have to if the sensing equipment was on the ship instead of the missile). So how do the ship and the missile communicate through half a moon's worth of bulkheads, people, weapons, quarters, and in proximity of a nuclear reactor?

You know what would work? A heat seeking missile. If it's fired into a thermal exhaust port, it's because there's a heat source at the bottom (the nuclear reactor). It just has to be set to trip at a certain temperature and boom, no need for communication with the targeting computer. And then it also keeps in line with narrative given before, during, and after the scene.

You are throwing away what narrative is laid out through two movies and hinging it on an assumption. And the assumption isn't even a very good one. If Luke just used telekinesis his previous force training scene is pointless, everyone talking about the accuracy is confusing, and Luke learning telekinesis in the next movie makes no sense.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Then why does Luke suck at telekinesis in the next movie?

Because the mass of a missile is far less than that of an entire fighter jet, and altering the orientation and velocity vector of a missile by about 90 degrees and letting it go that way in it's own takes a lot less energy than directly lifting a space ship directly up against the force of gravity and holding it there.

Well for one, he struggles to pull a lightsaber to his hand early in the movie. But also, are you sure it takes less energy to change the vector of the missiles by 90 degrees? Do we know how fast they're moving?

Why did Luke's force training in that movie focus on sensing his surroundings? Why did everyone who talked about the difficulty of the mission mention how hard it was going to be to aim?

I dunno. I already said I havent seen the movie in like 10 years.

The answer, of course, is because they were setting up the resolution as being one of Luke sensing his surroundings and aiming correctly.

If your complaint is that missiles with inbuilt guidance are inefficient, are you going to complain that there even is an exhaust port on the Deathstar?

You never said anything about inbuilt guidance. If they have inbuilt guidance systems, why do they need a fuse to make them turn downward by 90 degrees? If they have inbuilt guidance, what is the targeting computer even for?

The fuse was just an example of what they could do instead of having the computer guide the missile. There are numerous ways the missiles could work without the targeting computer to guide them.

Judging from how the computers were used with the various weapon systems, it calculated vectors and distances so that a shot would intersect a point at a specific time.

Is it venting hot gas? Where does the gas come from? Do they get more of it?

I would assume it's coming from whatever fuel they use to power the entire moon sized battle station.

EDIT: Hell, of the missiles are heat-seeking, maybe that's why they turn downward.

Which brings us here, if the missiles are heat seeking, you probably have to get them within the stream of heat, which means you have to get the missile within a two meter wide area. That's what the computer (and Luke's force perception) are for.

There are plenty of inefficiencies in both military organizations. Could it be that the missiles aren't radio controlled because they could be defeated by throwing up a bunch of radio waves to drown out the signal?

I never said anything about them being radio controlled.

Then how are they controlled that can't be beaten by throwing up some section of the EM spectrum and that also works through the mass of the Deathstar?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Then why does Luke suck at telekinesis in the next movie?

Because the mass of a missile is far less than that of an entire fighter jet, and altering the orientation and velocity vector of a missile by about 90 degrees and letting it go that way in it's own takes a lot less energy than directly lifting a space ship directly up against the force of gravity and holding it there.

Really? You ever try to knock over a bicycle going a thousand miles an hour? How about ten thousand? Physics isn't intuitive unless you actually know the physics. Momentum and inertia are stone cold bitches.

Well for one, he struggles to pull a lightsaber to his hand early in the movie. But also, are you sure it takes less energy to change the vector of the missiles by 90 degrees? Do we know how fast they're moving?

It's not like this thing has gyroscopic stabilization. Thrust is coming out the back of it. Turn the missile and you change where the thrust is pushing it towards, which changes the velocity vector.

Can a missile change it's velocity vector by itself? Yes. That's how it homes in.
Can a missile lift an aircraft?

Yes, but it still takes energy to change course, and more energy the faster something is moving. These missiles probably move very fast.

The fuse was just an example of what they could do instead of having the computer guide the missile. There are numerous ways the missiles could work without the targeting computer to guide them.

Judging from how the computers were used with the various weapon systems, it calculated vectors and distances so that a shot would intersect a point at a specific time.

Right, and if the targeting computer doesnt constantly update those vectors and communicate those changes with the missile, it becomes as easily dodgable as a blaster bolt. Unless it has another sort of guidance system, but you never brought that up before. You just had your fuse idea, which I already explained is a dumb idea for a weapon design.

I didn't have to bring up guidance systems before. By the narrative alone, Luke didn't curve the missiles. I was just being charitable and demonstrating how it COULD be done. And are you going to say the Star Wars universe is well known for it's intelligent and efficient weapon systems?

Which brings us here, if the missiles are heat seeking, you probably have to get them within the stream of heat, which means you have to get the missile within a two meter wide area. That's what the computer (and Luke's force perception) are for.

You dont need to get heat seeking missiles physically into the exhaust trail for them to work. They just have to see the source of heat in order to find it.

And would an ion engine like the one on the TIE fighter even make enough heat for the infrared guidance systems to even work?

And with no atmosphere and a linear exhaust, where is it going to reliably pick up the heat source?

I have no idea. I don't think we see the missiles get used against TIE fighters?

Then how are they controlled that can't be beaten by throwing up some section of the EM spectrum and that also works through the mass of the Deathstar?

Why would it need to be controlled? It's a straight chute. Just set the control systems to not change anything if it doesnt get any data.

If they aren't perfectly straight going down, they'll need to correct their courses a few times.

And I'm saying that it is absolutely reasonable to assume the missiles can curve without the targeting computer aboard the starfighter. You want the biggest nail in the coffin? If we assume that the targeting computer guides the missile mid flight, it would be reasonable to assume that the computer tells the missile when to detonate (it would have to if the sensing equipment was on the ship instead of the missile). So how do the ship and the missile communicate through half a moon's worth of bulkheads, people, weapons, quarters, and in proximity of a nuclear reactor?

...Or they could detonate based on a proximity sensor or kinetic impact sensor built into the nose of the missile.

And if the missiles have guidance, why does the shipboard computer have to communicate with them at all?

Like I said, there are many good ways to kill the assumption that the ship computer controls the missile. You have to work to make the assumption work, and your reward is to muddle the narrative structure of two movies. If your assumption isn't strong and only serves to make the movies make less sense, then why keep it up?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

If it helps at all, dont think of force sensitivity as a skill you can master. Think of it as an inherent ability that you just are.

This is how I've always perceived The Force in Star Wars as well. It's like a wellspring of power inside a person. "Training" is all about learning how to tap it at will and not letting it turn you into a power hungry lunatic, rather than the random burst of power that someone like Rey shows.

 

[WolfThomas]

are you going to complain that there even is an exhaust port on the Deathstar?

Woah woah woah. I know we're all getting stirred up. But that exhaust port is one of the most realistic details in any stars wars film.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Yes, but it still takes energy to change course, and more energy the faster something is moving. These missiles probably move very fast.

And most of that energy needed to change the velocity vector would be coming from the missile's own thruster.

If you change a rocket's orientation while it's thrusting, the thrust vector will change and the velocity vector will follow.

So how easy is it to change a car's course when it's at speed? If you're traveling at 80 MPH and slam your steering, does the car instantly turn?

I didn't have to bring up guidance systems before. By the narrative alone, Luke didn't curve the missiles. I was just being charitable and demonstrating how it COULD be done. And are you going to say the Star Wars universe is well known for it's intelligent and efficient weapon systems?

Well, yes. [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/HK-47]

To be fair, I did say weapon systems and not assassins.

And with no atmosphere and a linear exhaust, where is it going to reliably pick up the heat source?

Do you know how heat seeking works?

They do it through infrared imaging, using the infrared light emissions to track and follow a target until it hits it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_homing

You dont need to be in the hot exhaust or in any way hot at all to track heat. It works based on radiation, not convection.

Right, radiation is linear and there's no air to diffract it. The source of the IR isn't the vent, it's what's below the vent, so the sensor won't be able to see the IR source until it's over the vent.

If they aren't perfectly straight going down, they'll need to correct their courses a few times.

Assuming they know how wide and long the port is, that doesnt sound like a very hard thing to compensate for.

It's not, unless the missiles need the starfighter's computer to keep their positions in relation to each other straight.

And if the missiles have guidance, why does the shipboard computer have to communicate with them at all?

If the missiles have their own guidance that let them seek out their targets themselves, why are the targeting computers even IN damn machine? Just let it get a lock, fire, and forget like modern fighter jets.

For aiming the lasers and in this case, getting the missile within sufficient distance of the exhaust for the missiles to go into the shaft.

Like I said, there are many good ways to kill the assumption that the ship computer controls the missile. You have to work to make the assumption work, and your reward is to muddle the narrative structure of two movies. If your assumption isn't strong and only serves to make the movies make less sense, then why keep it up?

Because most of the engineering ideas you bring up to support your idea are completely terrible, and I really think your dislike of Rey is super overblown and not well supported by the either the new film or the original trilogy.

From my perspective, Gundam is basically Star Wars. Both are about a faction of rebels fighting a war against the standing government for independence using their own unique tech. Both have lasers and laser swords. Both have a supernatural power/ability present on both sides. Both have teenage protagonists adept with machines defeating the enemy side using their growing mastery of said power.

And the main character overcoming the technically more skilled opponent using their own superior inherent abilities (despite the fact that Ren fights like someone completely untrained with a sword, I'm just going on your own description) is a VERY Gundam thing.

You have Amuro managing to hold his own and even defeat Char -one of Zeon's top ace pilots and a Newtype hiself- pretty much exclusively due to the performance of his prototype machine and extremely powerful Newtype abilities.

If it helps at all, dont think of force sensitivity as a skill you can master. Think of it as an inherent ability that you just are, like being a Newtype.

The engineering ideas may be inefficient, but they work, and that's all that matters. I didn't start this off by designing a perfect weapon system, just merely showing that the assumption used to make the assertion isn't a strong one.

If you want to know the root of my problem here, Rey is far too competent to have an interesting character arc. This is made glaring when you compare to Luke or Amuro.

Like you bring up with Amuro, he only wins because his machine is better and it's acknowledged often. That leaves HIM room to grow as a pilot.

Comparing to Luke; Luke is almost killed by the sand people until he's saved by Kenobi, Luke is almost killed in Mos Eisley until he's saved by Kenobi, Luke is almost drowned and then crushed in the trash compactor until he's saved by the droids, Luke is almost shot down by Vader until he's saved by Han. Luke shows some skill, but it's made clear that he has a long way to go. The closest Rey gets to a situation like this is when she's captured by Ren, but she rapidly becomes immune to Ren's mind tricks and then turns it around on him. If she ever gets in trouble, she starts bailing herself out. It makes for a flat character, what is she going to learn in the next movie and why? Why wouldn't I just expect her to win her fights?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And I'm saying that it is absolutely reasonable to assume the missiles can curve without the targeting computer aboard the starfighter. You want the biggest nail in the coffin? If we assume that the targeting computer guides the missile mid flight, it would be reasonable to assume that the computer tells the missile when to detonate (it would have to if the sensing equipment was on the ship instead of the missile). So how do the ship and the missile communicate through half a moon's worth of bulkheads, people, weapons, quarters, and in proximity of a nuclear reactor?

Well no the targeting computer would tell the missiles where to go before it fires and they'd explode on impact. Like missiles.

Only if they're set up that way. Not all missiles are set to explode on impact.

You know what would work? A heat seeking missile. If it's fired into a thermal exhaust port, it's because there's a heat source at the bottom (the nuclear reactor). It just has to be set to trip at a certain temperature and boom, no need for communication with the targeting computer. And then it also keeps in line with narrative given before, during, and after the scene.

Which would mean that there'd be no need for the targeting computer and they could just fire the missles so they pass over the exhaust port. All they'd need to do is tell the ships where to go to fire from, they wouldn't need the targeting computer. But they did need the targeting computer, and the heat seeking missiles would also target all the other sources of heat first (ships, turrets) rather than somehow detecting heat miles away.

No, because they need to get the missile over the exhaust port, which is (as they say often) only 2 meters wide. And with the distances people shoot at in space, a very small aiming error would make the shot miss wildly. And the missiles could be looking for a sufficiently high IR source. I bet a reactor puts out more heat than a turret.

You are throwing away what narrative is laid out through two movies and hinging it on an assumption. And the assumption isn't even a very good one. If Luke just used telekinesis his previous force training scene is pointless, everyone talking about the accuracy is confusing, and Luke learning telekinesis in the next movie makes no sense.

Luke's previous force training scene is to trust himself and do amazing things with the force. Everyone talking about the accuracy isn't confusing I mean it's to also set up how amazing it is when he moves the missiles, and Luke had telekenisis in the next movie he was just learning to be better.

The real reason as well is that the Star Wars movies are renowned for not being very well planned. I mean it wasn't even called episode four until years later, and also incest.

No, it's to set up his awareness, which is why he uses the force to know where a droid was shooting previously. If they were setting up for telekinetic power, he'd have swatted the droid out of the way. If he was just moving the missiles, his accuracy wouldn't be amazing. He also would not need to turn off the computer as having the missiles go closer to his destination would put less strain on him as I think I mentioned before. And his telekinesis would be far weaker in the next movie for no explainable reason.

It makes two movies make less sense and the only reason I can think for why you're arguing this is you think it makes Rey look more believable. It doesn't even do that.

 

[Karadalis]

As someone who played and really enjoyed TIE fighter:

Guys... guys... those where proton TORPEDOS... not missles.

Missle =/= torpedo

(the missles are actually called concusion missles or something)

Second of all:

The targeting computers where exactly that: They where suposed to target the small ventilation/exhaust shaft/port.. thing is that the target was so small that even with a targeting computer you would have trouble hitting the opening at full combat speed. Thats why the other pilots couldnt get the torpedos into the shaft.

Third of all:

What we see happening at the death star is not what was earlier explained when they talked about the deathstar blueprints anyways. Remember that it was said that hiting the ventilationshaft would result in a chain reaction wich eventually would explode the core generator. However what we see is the torpedos being sucked into the exhaust port, no secondary explosions or any power fluctuations while tarkin waits for the laser to power up... and then suddenly the whole thing explodes and simply desintegrates. Lucas clearly fucked up here since the exposition doesnt fit the shown footage at all.


And finaly fourth of all:

Luke didnt use the targeting computer because the targeting computer was faulty and not really capable of rliably locking onto the exhaust port correctly since it was such a small opening, he trusted in the force to aim his shots, to tell him where to aim and when to fire the torpedos. Infact in the first movie lukes use of the force is NON existant. He doesnt show any force powers whatsofreaking ever kept for that one incident where he uses the force instead of a targeting computer, and that is mostly because of obi wans space ghost telling him to believe in the force.

Also there is no indication whatsoever that he actually did anything that wasnt suposed to happen while using the targeting computer. The proton torpedos WHERE suposed to be swallowed by the exhaustion port no matter who fired them, thats why we had two other attempts using the targeting computers by people who werent even force sensitive but simply plain ol human. Why would the proton torpedos get SUCKED into an EXHAUST port like that?

Dont ask me.. ask george lucas... however it had nothing to do with luke using the force to push them down in a 90 degree angle when in the empire strikes back (wich played several years after a new hope mind you) he has to learn how to lift fucking rocks into the air right next to him on the ground and it takes all his concentration to do so... yet here people suggest that hes actually able to manipulate energy torpedos, while in a star fighter, flying at full combat speed, while said energy torpedos are even faster then his own ship, in a highly stressfull live or death situation?

Yeah.. fat chance...

 

[crimson5pheonix]

No, it's to set up his awareness, which is why he uses the force to know where a droid was shooting previously. If they were setting up for telekinetic power, he'd have swatted the droid out of the way. If he was just moving the missiles, his accuracy wouldn't be amazing. He also would not need to turn off the computer as having the missiles go closer to his destination would put less strain on him as I think I mentioned before. And his telekinesis would be far weaker in the next movie for no explainable reason.

It makes two movies make less sense and the only reason I can think for why you're arguing this is you think it makes Rey look more believable. It doesn't even do that.

It's setting it up for him to believe in the force to do incredible things. I mean we even see him using telekinetic force in the next movie, which wouldn't make sense unless he'd known about it previously, even though he'd literally never seen anyone use telekinetic force. He also wouldn't keep the computer on as he even hears Obi-Wan telling him to use the force instead, that's entirely narrative driven and calls back to the earlier scene.

Also, to stress, the missiles curve downwards without having targeted anything. It wasn't a case of him aiming perfectly, it was a case of the missiles physically turning 90 degrees mid-flight just after we see him tap into the force. I mean we actually watch this happen in the movie.

The reason I'm arguing this is because your nostalgia is clouding your judgement here. The original trilogy was fun but it wasn't exactly that well written, and most certaintly wasn't planned, and powers appeared as the plot demanded (hell we don't even see force lightning until like 20 minutes from the end). Rey's power comes nowhere near to Luke's at the end of A New Hope. Tapping into the force to move missiles is far greater than anything she did.

EDIT: I snipped out the rest of your post because I thought you were quoting someone else, looks like I'm tired.

So tl;dr, they were set to explode on impact, we see that happen to the other ships missiles, if I recall correctly. As for aiming, they'd just need something to tell the ships to get to X,Y coordinates and fire anytime they're there, as the missiles would pass over the exhaust and automatically go into it. As they had a targeting computer that clearly wasn't the case.

tl;dr Read Karadalis' post. No, he doesn't use telekinesis. Even without pre-planning, it still wouldn't make sense to have him not be proficient with telekinesis in the next movie. They already established that he didn't have telekinesis and spent the next movie establishing that. It's not a case of nostalgia, it's a case of understanding narrative structure.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

tl;dr Read Karadalis' post. No, he doesn't use telekinesis. Even without pre-planning, it still wouldn't make sense to have him not be proficient with telekinesis in the next movie. They already established that he didn't have telekinesis and spent the next movie establishing that. It's not a case of nostalgia, it's a case of understanding narrative structure.

I skimmed his post quickly, too busy to do a full reply, but I noticed it mentioned the exhaust port sucking them in. Exhaust ports expel things, they don't suck things in, meaning if the exhaust port was powerful enough to affect the torpedos they would actually be pushed away from it. Seeing as though they weren't it means it wasn't powerful enough to affect them, so something external caused the torpedos to curve 90 degrees down into it. Like the force we see Luke tap into moments before.

Or vernier thrusters on the missile torpedo. Which is even more likely given that we would expect the torpedoes to be able to change course. But the point is there are lists of holes in your idea that Luke used telekinesis. There's no good reason to believe he did.