I liked Star Wars:TFA but....characterization

[Kingjackl]

I'm sick of people bringing up "tokenism" with regards to Finn and Rey, because tokenism refers to characters who are defined solely by being the token representative of a minority group. It does not apply to the main protagonists of a film just because they happen to not be white males. That's called "diversity", and it has more value than tired arguments about comic relief in pulp cinema.

I think Finn is the best character in the Force Awakens because he has the most interesting backstory, character flaws that impact the plot and a clear arc. Whereas Rey and Poe are more in keeping with the traditional escapist film archetypes of having no real flaws and just generally being cool because that's what we want to see. I mean, Rey's character flaws are the same non-flaws as any other Hero of a Thousand Faces: talented but trapped in a dull routine, initially refusing of the call, needing to master a supernatural power, etc. That doesn't make her a bad character, that makes her a standard character for this type of plot. And Poe doesn't even have that, but he has so little screen-time compared to the others that it's ok for him to be improbably awesome because he isn't the focus and we can just enjoy it whenever he's on-screen.

Actually, I don't think we've touched on Kylo Ren, who has one of the best characterisations in any Star Wars film.

 

[Cartographer]

Finn and Rey are two of the most lacking-in-subtlety audience surrogates I've ever seen.

The first time we meet Finn he's dazed and confused at what's happening around him.
He's everyone in the audience who hasn't ever seen a Star Wars movie, or who isn't invested in the universe.
He sees death and cruelty and reacts with horror and revulsion.
Just like the audience is supposed to.
He wants to escape what he sees as the evil forces surrounding him.
Like any sensible person would.
When confronted with big, explodey space battles and the rush of combat, he whoops and rejoices.
Just like the audience did.
He doesn't care about the politics or the history of what's going on, he wants to escape to somewhere far away and live an adventure.
It really couldn't be more spelled out.
He stays because of a connection to Rey, a wish to explore her world, to help her; he prances around with laser swords, wise cracks in Phasma's face 'cus he thinks that's what you're supposed to do in this universe. Eventually he's felled in defence of his friend(?) but survives to be revived by the life he was fleeing (the Resistance, the political situation, the conflict with the First Order etc.)

Rey is a loner, wistfully reminiscing about a time long ago when things were better.
You need this explained?
She spends her days gathering scrap and keeps hold of Star Wars memorabilia (rebel pilot's helmet).
Not at all subtle.
She's basically a good person, but hung up on something in her past that's holding her back. She has to go back to Jaku 'cus that's where she needs to be, waiting for the past to return.
No coincidence that it's Tatooine mk.2.
She's dragged into the larger conflict by outside forces, she's inherently knowledgeable about the universe and how it works, she's got skills that back this up and she flourishes despite not really enjoying herself.
Eventually she's forced into a confrontation where, and it cannot be shouted louder that it is, a FORCE AWAKENING makes her move on, face up to the world as it is rather than how she wants/dreams/hopes it to be and by the end has embraced the change.

As has been said, Abrams makes competent, uninspired, glossy movies, he doesn't do subtlety.

The reason you don't like Finn is because he's the new audience, enjoying Star Wars. He's the uninitiated holding on for the ride and not respecting the past 'cus he doesn't need to, acting the way he thinks he should based on what he's seen.
The reason you don't like Rey is because she's the fans, desperately clinging on to the past, unwilling to let go and the overwhelming message of the movie is to do just that and enjoy the new, like Finn does.

TLDR: Finn and Rey are audience surrogates and the way the movie depicts them is an unsubtle message to said audience.

 

[Winnosh]

We actually get a couple of scenes of Stormtroopers showing emotion in this movie.
Tonfa guy upset that Finn turned traitor.
Captain Phasma in all her appearences,
The two stormtroopers that just turn and leave when Kylo Ren is having his little temper tantrum.
The Stormtrooper that gets annoyed at Rey and says he'll tighten the straps

Every time a one of them is shown doing anything they all behave differently.

 

[Winnosh]

This might piss off some people but thinking about it, Finn is kinda racist, besides the part of him using the turret in the start, in the rest of the film he exists to make Ray look better by comparison with him making her a straight "mighty whitey".

In all my years on this site this is the first post I've ever seen, that's not an OP, where it so blatantly looks like the person doesn't believe what they're saying and are just saying it to get a reaction.

I wonder if you do it purely to diss my opinion. Let's take a look, Finn needs to be: rescued from tentacle hentai and Zuko, is not force sensitive, cannot use a lightsaber well, his only informed ability is to shoot (and even then I think it's worse then Ray's marksmanship). Pretty much everything he can do Ray can do better.

I heard this somewhere before and don't get it. Rey and Finn are on equal footing throughout the entire movie. Rey actually is the one that gets captured and they go to rescue her. They are both competent in a fight. Finn is the one that starts the fight with Kylo and manages to injure him further making Rey even able to stand a chance. Neither of them fighting alone could have defeated him. The whole reason that Finn gets caught by the tentacle beast is that Rey screws something up in a humorous manner and then she fixes it.

Finn is never innefectual in anything he does, he's competent just like every other hero. Oh no he makes jokes... So does EVERYONE in the movie.

Also I'm glad he's not force sensitive. You know who else wasn't Han Muthafuggin Solo. Not everyone needs to be a special Jedi, that was a problem with the prequels.

 

[Orga777]

Okay, saw the movie last night, and... yeah. Rey... She IS a little too perfect at everything. With zero training she masters some force powers with limited effort. Remember how long it took Luke to Force Pull his Lightsaber out of the snow in Empire? Rey not only Force-pulls a Lightsaber, but out Forces a well-trained Force user to get it in the first place. What? How does that work? Even Anakin needed to be freaking trained in the Force to do anything at all. But Rey has no teacher and is able to do something better than Luke who was trained by both Obi-wan and Yoda. Then we have the Jedi Mind Trick, which she just kinda masters... in like a minute... with no training or even how to do it at all. And then that duel with Kylo Ren. Okay, yeah, he was wounded, but... Rey has no training and all her self-defense skills, while very effective against standard mooks, should not be enough to beat a hardened force-trained combatant, even if that combatant is wounded. It would be like Luke beating Vader back in Empire. It would make no sense at all... and Luke had at least some training! I just don't understand how she can just be so good with the Force with no training or even knowing much about the Jedi, or the Force in general beforehand. I can accept her being a good mechanic and pilot just because of her background as a Scavenger, but the Force stuff... just... no.

Other than that, I felt like most of the other characters were well established and had a little more agency. Finn was cool, but I do think they dropped the ball a bit with the stuff they could of done with the Stormtrooper angle. I also think that it would of been a bit better not to just have the Troopers without names and stuff. I think there could have been a bit more value in showing the process of their indoctrination, and maybe have these guys families of Empire Loyalists instead of... just random brainwashing. Hopefully they can expand on these in the later films, so the complaint can be minor.

Kylo Ren was a good character when it comes to characterizations as much as he being the most interesting of the new batch, but... he is such a wannabe Vader try-hard that it comes off as adorable. Which is what I think they are going for anyway, so it is okay.

There are other issues of course, but most of them have less to do with the characters and more of some of the other things.

Overall, though, it was a decent movie. Definitely better than the Prequels, but it isn't even as good as Return of the Jedi. So... there is still a lot of work to do.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Finn is never innefectual in anything he does, he's competent just like every other hero. Oh no he makes jokes... So does EVERYONE in the movie.

Also I'm glad he's not force sensitive. You know who else wasn't Han Muthafuggin Solo. Not everyone needs to be a special Jedi, that was a problem with the prequels.

Well... Finn does lose every fight he's in. He gets shot down in the TIE fighter, Rey and BB-8 chase him down and beat him up, the hentai beast drags him through the ship, TR-8R (I'm assuming that's a fan name, which I like) beats the piss out of him, and Kylo Ren nearly cuts him in half. The only fights he actually wins are the ones Rey or Han are helping him with.

Not that any of that's a bad thing. I like that Finn, despite all his effort, isn't a super hero. He's just doing the best he can in a universe where, if your not a Skywalker or a previous/current owner of the Falcon, you can suck it and everything bad is going to happen to you.

Also, I hope Finn isn't a Jedi as well. I like him more as a bumbling sort of Solo.

 

[Saltyk]

Um, sorry, but I had to stop reading when you complained that Rey had no character. Especially when you say that they didn't show her character. Maybe it's because I just watched it for the second time with my Mom (for her birthday) and dad. But Rey had plenty of character.

She is shown to be self sufficient, a bit of a loner, but also that she has a kind heart. We see her work and live alone. However, we also see her upon hearing BB-8 in trouble rush out to help him. And at first, she tells him to leave and make his own way, she does take him in to give him shelter. She's also shown leading him around after that. And when offered what was obviously months worth of food for him, she turns it down. We also see Finn start to help her, but stop when he sees her beating her attackers. And every time he takes her hand to lead her around, she objects to it. Rey never wants help, but we also see her hug Finn when she realizes that he lead Han and Chewie to come save her, showing growth.

And people need to watch the Rey/Kylo Ren fight again. Rey struggled for a long time. She was running while Kylo was obviously trying to stop, but not kill her. Rey only managed to overcome him when she calmed down and even then it was a pretty even fight.

You create the idea of kinetic characterization and then fail to see exactly that in the main character.

I also just want to point out that the movie shows how awesome a pilot Poe is. In the scene when the Resistance arrives to save them, we see an extended scene of Finn fighting with a single X-Wing taking down several Tie Fighters and even strafing the ground. Finn is fighting the whole time and comments on how amazing of a pilot that X-Wing had. It was Poe.

No, Finn is bad because his character doesn't make sense. He goes from what we can assume is an indoctrination program to create perfect stormtroopers, to a comic relief character who has no problem killing people. Even though he wanted to get out because he doesn't like killing people. Although you could argue that it is just instinct for him to kill, but we are shown that he has no remorse for the killing he does. And you would think the program would take away personality.

I'm pretty sure Finn's problem was killing innocent unarmed people who did nothing to deserve it. These weren't criminals or Resistance fighters. These were people. Judging by context, probably poor people. And it seems obvious that it was Finn's first field mission. Don't forget that he was a janitor on Star Killer base before all of this.

Ok, he tries to create a personality for himself. It should feel really awkward and forced, because obviously this would be foreign to him.

Honestly, he felt like his jokes were a bit awkward and forced. Finn was awkward in general. Like when he's trying to tell Han that he is a "Big Deal" in the Resistance. And a lot of his funny moments didn't even feel like they were they were intentional. Like they were funny to us, but he wasn't trying to be funny.

Finn: "Okay, stay calm."
Poe: "I am calm."
Finn: "I was talking to me."

Also, let's not forget that the first person he meets in Poe. A bad ass pilot with a jokey personality. Poe is even the person that names him. Before that he was a number. Finn had a lot of respect for Poe. I can imagine a bit of Poe's personality rubbing off on him.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This might piss off some people but thinking about it, Finn is kinda racist, besides the part of him using the turret in the start, in the rest of the film he exists to make Ray look better by comparison with him making her a straight "mighty whitey".

Well that's not quite fair, everyone exists to make Rey look better. She's stronger in the force and a better fighter than Ren, she's better than Finn, she has to tell Han how his own ship works. We haven't really had her talk to Poe yet, but I bet she's around as good a pilot as Poe, if not better.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

-snip-

Aright, let's get into it-

Rey has PLENTY of Kinetic characterisation, let's just go blow by blow, in her introduction-

Scavenging by herself in the ruins of a Star Destroyer- self sufficient

Trades the parts for sub-par rations but takes it anyway- not in the best situation

Scratches a mark on an endlessly growing wall of tallies- willful, naive, waiting for something that any rational observer can see will never come, tied down by her past

Sits alone outside watching the desert- waiting for someONE since she's keeping a look out, her house is a ship, clearly waiting for family.

So from her first ten odd minutes of screen time, we see she's someone who's got a near endless well of hope and is waiting for a bus that's just never going to come. She's determined to survive and stubborn in her choice of location (backed up by later encounters and an insistence of returning to Jakku), her unwillingness to move forward actively restrains her abilities with the Force and she only gets proficient in what we have to assume are intense natural abilities when she has no other recourse, her will to survive manifesting the only way it knows how.

Of course, it takes a long time for her to actually CONNECT to the Force and she only does so near the end of her fight with Kylo Ren (after he kicks her ass despite a stomach wound, injuries from Finn, and a shocking amount of emotional turbulence while he TRIES TO TAKE HER ALIVE, but nah, clearly she cakewalked it) but the groundwork is there pretty much from Jakku.

And since we're on to Finn,

Stormtroopers have ALWAYS shown some personality, not much granted, but they do have reactions to things. Such as the man, the legend, TR-8R who channels his rage in ways the Sith could only dream of. And Finn, well, he was a Janitor. It's important to remember that the brainwashing programme isn't full proof, they actually keep track of and monitor Troopers like Finn, they mention that it's happened before. He narrowly misses the re-indoctrination by escaping with Poe.

And while he might be comic relief to some people, it's not through his own witty banter. It's through his totally rational responses to scary ass situations, it's funny because the other characters are all some level of badass and Finn is LITERALLY CANNON FODDER WHO'S TRYING TO BE A MAIN CHARACTER. His personality is half parroting Poe and half trying to be as cool as he sees Rey.

He's a guy who's never had a 'friend' in his life, he's got Poe and he's got Rey (and BB-8 who proved himself trustworthy), before that all he had were other Troopers and they clearly are not people you can talk about your problems to.
Basically... he saw behind the mask, and had to get out.

Nearest comparison I have is Usopp from One Piece. He's a coward at heart but he does heroic shit because he doesn't see he has any other choice. Stormtroopers don't have right and wrong and their personalities beaten out of them, they're just told the Empire is 'right' and anything is 'wrong'. Emotionless Troopers are no good to anyone, you just want them all feeling what YOU want them to. The only reason we don't see more of that in the movies is when you humanise the troopers you realise Luke killed 1.4 billion PEOPLE.

 

[Winnosh]

This might piss off some people but thinking about it, Finn is kinda racist, besides the part of him using the turret in the start, in the rest of the film he exists to make Ray look better by comparison with him making her a straight "mighty whitey".

Well that's not quite fair, everyone exists to make Rey look better. She's stronger in the force and a better fighter than Ren, she's better than Finn, she has to tell Han how his own ship works. We haven't really had her talk to Poe yet, but I bet she's around as good a pilot as Poe, if not better.

How is she a better fighter than Ren? She holds her own against him, barely, when Ren has
1: Been shot in the gut with a Bowcaster, something which is pretty much a laser Shotgun with a much bigger kick"
2: Been slashed a couple of time by Finn who also only held his own because Ren was injured before the fight even started.

Ren was bleeding out through the entire fight, he needed immediate medical attention but still fought the two of them in rapid sucession.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This might piss off some people but thinking about it, Finn is kinda racist, besides the part of him using the turret in the start, in the rest of the film he exists to make Ray look better by comparison with him making her a straight "mighty whitey".

Well that's not quite fair, everyone exists to make Rey look better. She's stronger in the force and a better fighter than Ren, she's better than Finn, she has to tell Han how his own ship works. We haven't really had her talk to Poe yet, but I bet she's around as good a pilot as Poe, if not better.

How is she a better fighter than Ren? She holds her own against him, barely, when Ren has
1: Been shot in the gut with a Bowcaster, something which is pretty much a laser Shotgun with a much bigger kick"
2: Been slashed a couple of time by Finn who also only held his own because Ren was injured before the fight even started.

Ren was bleeding out through the entire fight, he needed immediate medical attention but still fought the two of them in rapid sucession.

And she was already at the point where Ren's force powers weren't working on her back when she was tied up. And yes, I'm still going to hold out on Ren having years of force and lightsaber training to Rey's jack squat.

 

[Winnosh]

This might piss off some people but thinking about it, Finn is kinda racist, besides the part of him using the turret in the start, in the rest of the film he exists to make Ray look better by comparison with him making her a straight "mighty whitey".

Well that's not quite fair, everyone exists to make Rey look better. She's stronger in the force and a better fighter than Ren, she's better than Finn, she has to tell Han how his own ship works. We haven't really had her talk to Poe yet, but I bet she's around as good a pilot as Poe, if not better.

How is she a better fighter than Ren? She holds her own against him, barely, when Ren has
1: Been shot in the gut with a Bowcaster, something which is pretty much a laser Shotgun with a much bigger kick"
2: Been slashed a couple of time by Finn who also only held his own because Ren was injured before the fight even started.

Ren was bleeding out through the entire fight, he needed immediate medical attention but still fought the two of them in rapid sucession.

And she was already at the point where Ren's force powers weren't working on her back when she was tied up. And yes, I'm still going to hold out on Ren having years of force and lightsaber training to Rey's jack squat.

And Darth Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith himself couldn't get the rebel base's location out of a completely untrained Princess Leia. This is nothing new with an untrained force user being able to keep information back from someone.

The scene was a mirror to the one in Return of the Jedi

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This might piss off some people but thinking about it, Finn is kinda racist, besides the part of him using the turret in the start, in the rest of the film he exists to make Ray look better by comparison with him making her a straight "mighty whitey".

Well that's not quite fair, everyone exists to make Rey look better. She's stronger in the force and a better fighter than Ren, she's better than Finn, she has to tell Han how his own ship works. We haven't really had her talk to Poe yet, but I bet she's around as good a pilot as Poe, if not better.

How is she a better fighter than Ren? She holds her own against him, barely, when Ren has
1: Been shot in the gut with a Bowcaster, something which is pretty much a laser Shotgun with a much bigger kick"
2: Been slashed a couple of time by Finn who also only held his own because Ren was injured before the fight even started.

Ren was bleeding out through the entire fight, he needed immediate medical attention but still fought the two of them in rapid sucession.

And she was already at the point where Ren's force powers weren't working on her back when she was tied up. And yes, I'm still going to hold out on Ren having years of force and lightsaber training to Rey's jack squat.

And Darth Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith himself couldn't get the rebel base's location out of a completely untrained Princess Leia. This is nothing new with an untrained force user being able to keep information back from someone.

The scene was a mirror to the one in Return of the Jedi

Except that Rey turned it around on Ren and started sifting through his mind, something Leia couldn't do on account of not being the best at everything forever.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.

You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.

You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?

Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship. Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.

 

[MishaK]

I like the attempt to turn globally shitty storytelling in the SW universe, into an "SJW/MRA" issue. Fucking priceless.

It's Star Wars! The most laughable, entertaining shlock there is! Space BALLS was better written and acted, and if you really love SW you know that too.

...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.

You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?

Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship. Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.

Maybe children, married life, and decades of crushing responsibility have mellowed him. It's as good an explanation for anything in SW.

 

[VoidWanderer]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the people who not only think Finn wasn't a retardedly written character, but the best in the movie?

JJ gives us this Storm Trooper who was kidnapped as a child and brainwashed into being this merciless soldier and after his first taste at combat where a fellow Trooper died essentially in his arms and watched an innocent village getting mowed down and he turns into typical joke cracking black guy who's nothing but cringeworthy as fuck?

Jar Jar was more logical than this shit.

fuck finally found someone who agrees.
I understand having a level of comic relief but that guy was so obviously "token goofy harmless black guy" that it made me feel ashamed for whoever wrote him.

That's my issue. Not that he's trying to make light of a situation with a little humor. It's that he feels like a token character who was written for a shitty skit in The Chapelle Show or something.

The way I see this character is Generic Stormtrooper number 834 see combat for the first time, and something awakens within him. He becomes Force Sensitive. But given the extreme conditioning he was under he has absolutely no idea what happened, and why. The death of an ally, is the first moment we stop seeing stormtroopers as mooks with terrible aim, but as actual people. This is I think, his awakening.

So, he blunders through the attack, but Captain Phasma AND Kylo both stop to appraise him. They both know there is something off about this trooper. And you are right he does tell cringeworthy humour. But given his conditioning, I doubt he even experienced emotions before. Seriously, would you want a trooper that can be emotionally manipulated? Of course not. They must be cold and detached.

I actually think this is subversive writing. He seems so out of place because he literally is. He doesn't get the social cues from other people because he literally has no idea what they are. He followed orders, and that was it. But given his awakening, I think it broke his conditioning, and know you see a man without emotion trying to get by where people emote.

But this is just my view

 

[Dazzle Novak]

This argument is so muddied because you have the pro-side being intentionally dense and leaning on speculation posed as "obvious" fact along with faith that "all will be explained next movie, I'm sure" while the anti-side peddles in arguments stained by their questionable (i.e. racist/sexist) implementation.

Finn's confrontation with Phasma is the one point he's embarrassingly in Kevin Hart territory. That, and when he essentially tells a droid, "Nigga, please!" Otherwise, it's simply the fact that establishing the storm troopers as being victims of kidnapping/indoctrination makes their thoughtless disposability less palatable which is then compounded by how little Finn reacts to the fact he's killing mooks he knows personally.

Finn not being all that good at anything wouldn't be bad in and of itself, it'd mirror Luke's arc minus the Ace Pilotship, but everyone around him is many folds awesomer. I was glad to see someone lose despite wielding a lightsaber, but when you have Han, Poe, and Rey as pilots, Han and Rey as shooters, and Rey as mechanic and the Jedi prodigy, "normal" becomes "useless". Fans can't praise Rey for her competence and not ever needing rescue, while telling black people, "Don't cry that your insert character is bumbling and ineffectual compared to everyone around him."

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship.

That literally never happened.

Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.

Lawrence Kasdan, who was responsible for Han's primary characterization in Empire Strikes Back (far and away the most Han-centric scene) had script approval and co-wrote Force Awakens. It would appear his vision of Han's character differs from yours.

I like the attempt to turn globally shitty storytelling in the SW universe, into an "SJW/MRA" issue. Fucking priceless.

Given the tenor of discussion in "geek space" over the last half decade, are you surprised? This was inevitable.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Lawrence Kasdan, who was responsible for Han's primary characterization in Empire Strikes Back (far and away the most Han-centric scene) had script approval and co-wrote Force Awakens. It would appear his vision of Han's character differs from yours.

Lawrence Kasdan also wrote Return of the Jedi where Han is portrayed as a slapstick idiot who kills Boba Fett on accident.

Let's not pretend he can do no wrong.