I liked Star Wars:TFA but....characterization

[crimson5pheonix]

I like the attempt to turn globally shitty storytelling in the SW universe, into an "SJW/MRA" issue. Fucking priceless.

It's Star Wars! The most laughable, entertaining shlock there is! Space BALLS was better written and acted, and if you really love SW you know that too.

...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.

You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?

Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship. Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.

Maybe children, married life, and decades of crushing responsibility have mellowed him. It's as good an explanation for anything in SW.

I might actually buy that, but then why did Han do the most Han thing and run away from his responsibilities in the first place.

Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship.

That literally never happened.

Really, do you not remember her saying what they should do with Han finishing her thought? It only happened a few times...

Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.

Lawrence Kasdan, who was responsible for Han's primary characterization in Empire Strikes Back (far and away the most Han-centric scene) had script approval and co-wrote Force Awakens. It would appear his vision of Han's character differs from yours.

Cool, what does that matter again?

Except that Rey turned it around on Ren and started sifting through his mind, something Leia couldn't do on account of not being the best at everything forever.

Luke did manage to use telekinesis to move ship missiles perfectly at insane speeds, which is power that was no one else shows anything close to in the rest of the series, yet no one bats an eye. Not even counting the fact that Luke had never seen any force powers being used as telekinesis. Neither Obi-Wan or Vader had done that in front of him.

So it's not too much of a stretch to think Rey can do things with the force to a lesser extent than Luke did the first time he started using them.

Did he use telekinesis? I always assumed he just pulled some zen archery stuff. If all he was doing was forcing the missile where it needed to go, why not keep the targeting computer on to have the missile go closer to where it needed to so he wouldn't have to strain himself so hard?

In either case, he wasn't working against another force user. Her beating Ren at his own game makes Ren look weak. Why are we scared of him? If 3 derps can take him in a fight, we can presume a squad of troopers can and we have to ask why no one has stopped him. Why can he kill his fellow Jedi in training without Luke being able to stop him but not deal with these 3? Do we assume that wasn't an emotional experience and that he got through it unscathed?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Really, do you not remember her saying what they should do with Han finishing her thought? It only happened a few times...

Yes I remember them having the same idea at the same time. Han was the one who carried the action out. She also "bypassed" the compressor (by ripping it out), which she knew was installed because she worked for the junk dealer who had come to own the ship. She seemed very impressed by her improvisation, and Han looked completely unimpressed, resulting in a reaction shot of her face falling from a happy smile to a confused frown as he walked away. Those were the two interactions the characters had regarding the Falcon. Let me know how it fits into the narrative of how she's the absolute best at everything and schools every other character.

Cool, what does that matter again?

You mean, what does the opinion of one of the character's creators matter as pertains to said character's behavior? Gosh I don't know. It's a puzzle.

Lawrence Kasdan also wrote Return of the Jedi where Han is portrayed as a slapstick idiot who kills Boba Fett on accident.

Let's not pretend he can do no wrong.

Hey, I was the one reminding everyone that Kershner's only other contribution to modern cinema was Robocop 2, you don't need to prompt me about not lionizing these guys. If you wanted to go mining for Kasdan's failures, you needn't have started with Return of the Jedi. He also had his fingers in turds like Dreamcatcher and Wyatt Earp. It's not a question of "Kasdan doing no wrong", I just think it's fair to credit one of a character's primary creators with having the more authoritative outlook on how said character should develop. I'm not an advocate of authorial fiat, so if everyone thinks Kasdan did shit work, they're welcome to that opinion. It's just amusing to read people speculating as if one of the writers didn't understand his own character.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

You mean, what does the opinion of one of the character's creators matter as pertains to said character's behavior? Gosh I don't know. It's a puzzle.

Do you place similar stock in George Lucas' opinion on his franchise or can you admit even the mastermind behind a work can make mistakes and lose track of their own story?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Do you place similar stock in George Lucas' opinion on his franchise or can you admit even the mastermind behind a work can make mistakes and lose track of their own story?

I had total faith in Lucas's ability to deliver more solid entries into the universe until he was given three mulligans at it and shit the bed every time.

That the same Lucas wanted Han to be a "frog faced alien" (likely realized later in the Gungans) and C3PO to be a "used car salesman" (likely realized later in Watto) suggests that Lucas was probably always best served by having strong voices in the room ready to reign him in. His contributions to Crystal Skull also raise questions as to his competence.

I think the even man's most ardent defenders freely admit at this juncture that his film-making days are in his rear view mirror.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Really, do you not remember her saying what they should do with Han finishing her thought? It only happened a few times...

Yes I remember them having the same idea at the same time. Han was the one who carried the action out. She also "bypassed" the compressor (by ripping it out), which she knew was installed because she worked for the junk dealer who had come to own the ship. She seemed very impressed by her improvisation, and Han looked completely unimpressed, resulting in a reaction shot of her face falling from a happy smile to a confused frown as he walked away. Those were the two interactions the characters had regarding the Falcon. Let me know how it fits into the narrative of how she's the absolute best at everything and schools every other character.

I remember her being quicker on her articulation implying that Han only went to that conclusion on cue from Rey. So at best, her piloting skill is on par with an old smuggler who is regarded very well despite having never left her planet, implying that she shouldn't know dick about piloting. Otherwise, as I suspect, she's even better. This theme is repeated with most anybody she meets, where she's either their equal or better.

Cool, what does that matter again?

You mean, what does the opinion of one of the character's creators matter as pertains to said character's behavior? Gosh I don't know. It's a puzzle.

It is indeed, because as Novak pointed out his writing isn't consistent.

 

[Winnosh]

You mean, what does the opinion of one of the character's creators matter as pertains to said character's behavior? Gosh I don't know. It's a puzzle.

Do you place similar stock in George Lucas' opinion on his franchise or can you admit even the mastermind behind a work can make mistakes and lose track of their own story?

Except that Lucas didn't write or direct those movies. The only one he did was also the one with the most adlibbing and other people changing stuff.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So at best, her piloting skill is on par with an old smuggler who is regarded very well despite having never left her planet, implying that she shouldn't know dick about piloting.

It's established relatively early on that she's flown before, just never off planet.

You deriving that her skills here "on par" with Han because of two throwaway bits that ended with an unimpressed Han walking away is you seeing something that you were looking for.

Otherwise, as I suspect, she's even better.

As evidenced here. You are literally filling in your own blanks to disgust YOURSELF about how the character was portrayed. As I've said repeatedly, there was room for an intelligent discussion about Rey's characterization, but it was very quickly drowned out by polarized crap like "SHE'S BETTER THAN EVERYONE AT EVERYTHING WHAAAAAARGARBLE".

It is indeed, because as Novak pointed out his writing isn't consistent.

Novak's salient assertion that Kasdan is not god's gift to screenwriting is irrelevant to the question of whom, between Kasdan and yourself, should be considered a steward of the character of Han Solo.

Except that Lucas didn't write or direct those movies. The only one he did was also the one with the most adlibbing and other people changing stuff.

Lucas has writing credits on both Empire and ROTJ.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Novak's salient assertion that Kasdan is not god's gift to screenwriting is irrelevant to the question of whom, between Kasdan and yourself, should be considered a steward of the character of Han Solo.

Why do I get the feeling that "salient" is dripping with sarcasm and venom?

Harrison Ford went off script with Kasdan, too. The infamous "I know" line is an ad-lib.

Your assertion is that once a writer writes a character well, it negates any audience member's contention with future portrayals. I disagree. His portrayal of Han in RotJ is inconsistent, so why am I expected to accept your appeal to authority regarding his portrayal in TFA?

Moreover, we're discussing a screenwriter. Among the most mercenary of writers. He's expected to push out a script when hired to do so. Sometimes, character suffers as a result of a tight schedule. That, and the director has final say.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Why do I get the feeling that "salient" is dripping with sarcasm and venom?

I mean this in the nicest way possible...because you don't like me, and you've developed a persecution complex that has informed almost every interaction we've had on this subject.

It's a perfectly reasonable point to raise. Kasdan is a not infallible.

Harrison Ford went off script with Kasdan, too. The infamous "I know" line is an ad-lib.

Yeah I'm aware. Actors actually being able to make contributions to their characters is something that felt missing from episodes 1-3.

Your assertion is that once a writer writes a character well, it negates any audience member's contention with future portrayals. I disagree. His portrayal of Han in RotJ is inconsistent, so why am I expected to accept your appeal to authority that his portrayal in TFA must be?

That's not my assertion at all. In fact, I stated the exact opposite of this in my last reply to you.

Moreso, we're discussing a screenwriter. Among the most mercenary of writers. He's expected to push out a script when hired to do so. Sometimes, character suffers as a result.

Okay...did you have an issue with Han's portrayal in Force Awakens? And if so, do you credit that issue to the way he was written?

He seemed rather quintessentially "Han" to me, and his clunkiest moments were with Leia, not any of the new cast. IMO, naturally.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Did he use telekinesis? I always assumed he just pulled some zen archery stuff. If all he was doing was forcing the missile where it needed to go, why not keep the targeting computer on to have the missile go closer to where it needed to so he wouldn't have to strain himself so hard?

In either case, he wasn't working against another force user. Her beating Ren at his own game makes Ren look weak. Why are we scared of him? If 3 derps can take him in a fight, we can presume a squad of troopers can and we have to ask why no one has stopped him. Why can he kill his fellow Jedi in training without Luke being able to stop him but not deal with these 3? Do we assume that wasn't an emotional experience and that he got through it unscathed?

Well the missiles weren't targeting anything and they were in space. It wouldn't be like pulling of a fancy trick shot, the only way those missiles could've moved is if he moved them himself. He turned the computer off to rely on the force.

So then, why were any other bombers on the bombing run? A bunch of them went in expecting to take the shot, but nobody else could use the force. Why did Han say the shot was one in a million? He doesn't believe in the force. If the missiles were only moving because of the force, shouldn't he be acknowledging the force is real or wondering how that happened? Also lol at the missiles not moving themselves, missiles have propulsion.

Ren was winning that fight. Despite having been shot by a shotgun basically, he still wiped the floor with Finn. He was toying with him in that fight then just straight up beat him. He even beat Rey until she tapped into the force, he wasn't trying to kill her remember, she spent that entire fight running away because he was more powerful.

Well Finn isn't force sensitive and was using a weapon that's been noted to be dangerous to use for non-force sensitives. But didn't he manage to land a blow anyway? And I don't know if it was that one sided against Rey, she was doing fine holding him off before just wrecking his shit.

A squad of troopers probably could take him yes. Jedi Masters were taken out by just a handful of troops with ease remember. But like them he always seems to fight with an army, so that explains why he hasn't been stopped. When it comes to fear very little people feared him throughout the film, despite the people he was just about to kill of course.

Makes for a bad villain. As if his ridiculous appearance without his helmet was bad enough. But with Vader you figured he could stop a squad of troopers, though it helps that he can stop blaster shots with his bare(ish) hands.

How can he kill his fellow Jedi in training without Luke being able to stop him? Luke was most likely away (I'm incredibly confident this will be the case when we see it).

I'd believe that, in which case it's a bad mark on Luke. But that still leaves him fighting however many other padawans when he received about as much training as them (presumably).

So at best, her piloting skill is on par with an old smuggler who is regarded very well despite having never left her planet, implying that she shouldn't know dick about piloting.

It's established relatively early on that she's flown before, just never off planet.

You deriving that her skills here "on par" with Han because of two throwaway bits that ended with an unimpressed Han walking away is you seeing something that you were looking for.

I don't know where that happened. I remember she uses speeders, but that's about it.

More than two bits and Han does say (repeatedly if I remember) that she knows what she's doing. She so impressed him that he asked her to join up with them. You forget that?

Otherwise, as I suspect, she's even better.

As evidenced here. You are literally filling in your own blanks to disgust YOURSELF about how the character was portrayed. As I've said repeatedly, there was room for an intelligent discussion about Rey's characterization, but it was very quickly drowned out by polarized crap like "SHE'S BETTER THAN EVERYONE AT EVERYTHING WHAAAAAARGARBLE".

I'll stop saying that when there's a chance for her to fail. Like I said, the typical second movie event is to have the main character lose a hand, hopefully she keeps up that tradition.

It is indeed, because as Novak pointed out his writing isn't consistent.

Novak's salient assertion that Kasdan is not god's gift to screenwriting is irrelevant to the question of whom, between Kasdan and yourself, should be considered a steward of the character of Han Solo.

I never claimed to be a steward, I just said Han seemed like he was acting out of character. The writer's opinion matters, but no one person is the definitive voice on this. Though judging from how many people are saying Rey is a Mary Sue, I imagine I'm not the only one with this opinion.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't know where that happened. I remember she uses speeders, but that's about it.

Somewhere between the sprint for the 'quad jumper' and their eventual flight off planet.

More than two bits and Han does say (repeatedly if I remember) that she knows what she's doing. She so impressed him that he asked her to join up with them. You forget that?

No, it really is two bits. I saw the film for a second time last night. It's two bits. And yes, Han offers her a spot on the crew. He did the same with Luke after a similarly short introduction. Han is a huge fucking softy and always has been.

I'll stop saying that when there's a chance for her to fail. Like I said, the typical second movie event is to have the main character lose a hand, hopefully she keeps up that tradition.

I do hope they come up with more original adversity for her than losing a hand yet again, but like yourself I do hope to see ALL the characters be rendered more vulnerable in Act II. Vulnerability is important for tension. I have no issue with the argument that things might have seemed to come "too easily" for Rey, the issue I have is with the volume of said argument and some of the fabrications people invent to support it. She is still within the normal operating range for a Star Wars protagonist.

I never claimed to be a steward, I just said Han seemed like he was acting out of character. The writer's opinion matters, but no one person is the definitive voice on this. Though judging from how many people are saying Rey is a Mary Sue, I imagine I'm not the only one with this opinion.

How many people ARE saying that? I posted an article a while back stating that after analysis of over 1.5 million post film reactions that audience enthusiasm was at an unprecedented 99%. If I were to present that as evidence that there was nothing wrong with the film it would be an absurd example of argumentum ad populum. I'd suggest it would be even more ridiculous to argue that a vocal 1% represents an extraordinary flaw in the central protagonist. Let's just stick to making arguments ourselves, then, and not pretend the fact other people are also making arguments is evidence of anything.

As for Han...he seemed very Han to me. I do not recall any prior Han Solo moments where he told people to "shut up". He doesn't like people insulting the Falcon, but he's never shown an aggressive or surly side in reaction to "being given advice", outside of not liking to hear about the odds.

 

[MishaK]

I like the attempt to turn globally shitty storytelling in the SW universe, into an "SJW/MRA" issue. Fucking priceless.

It's Star Wars! The most laughable, entertaining shlock there is! Space BALLS was better written and acted, and if you really love SW you know that too.

...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.

You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?

Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship. Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.

Maybe children, married life, and decades of crushing responsibility have mellowed him. It's as good an explanation for anything in SW.

I might actually buy that, but then why did Han do the most Han thing and run away from his responsibilities in the first place.

Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship.

That literally never happened.

Really, do you not remember her saying what they should do with Han finishing her thought? It only happened a few times...

Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.

Lawrence Kasdan, who was responsible for Han's primary characterization in Empire Strikes Back (far and away the most Han-centric scene) had script approval and co-wrote Force Awakens. It would appear his vision of Han's character differs from yours.

Cool, what does that matter again?

Except that Rey turned it around on Ren and started sifting through his mind, something Leia couldn't do on account of not being the best at everything forever.

Luke did manage to use telekinesis to move ship missiles perfectly at insane speeds, which is power that was no one else shows anything close to in the rest of the series, yet no one bats an eye. Not even counting the fact that Luke had never seen any force powers being used as telekinesis. Neither Obi-Wan or Vader had done that in front of him.

So it's not too much of a stretch to think Rey can do things with the force to a lesser extent than Luke did the first time he started using them.

Did he use telekinesis? I always assumed he just pulled some zen archery stuff. If all he was doing was forcing the missile where it needed to go, why not keep the targeting computer on to have the missile go closer to where it needed to so he wouldn't have to strain himself so hard?

In either case, he wasn't working against another force user. Her beating Ren at his own game makes Ren look weak. Why are we scared of him? If 3 derps can take him in a fight, we can presume a squad of troopers can and we have to ask why no one has stopped him. Why can he kill his fellow Jedi in training without Luke being able to stop him but not deal with these 3? Do we assume that wasn't an emotional experience and that he got through it unscathed?

I refer you to the aforementioned terrible writing and storytelling that is the norm in the SW universe. Blaming on a "feminist" conspiracy what is better explained by the usual shit writing and desperate pandering to "win back" older fans doesn't work for me.

Then again, I don't need for it to, maybe you do.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

No I don't recall Finn landing a blow, though correct me if I'm wrong there. When they fight Ren is just destroying him to the extent he toys with him. He even walks away a couple of times (when he's punching his side remember) just to give Finn a chance, because he's beating him easy and likes toying with him. Then he pins him against a tree, disarms him and slices his back.

Ren is toying with Finn until Finn lands a hit to his shoulder, at which point he seems decidedly pissed off and dispatches him in a couple of brief seconds.

He could have surprise attacked them when they were sleeping or anything. I mean they wouldn't have their guard up, he's their friend. Point is we can't really talk about this because we don't know, but it's more likely it was a surprise betrayal when Luke was away.

We know a bit (from Rey's flashback/vision). We know it wasn't Kylo alone, he had the knights of Ren with him.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I don't know where that happened. I remember she uses speeders, but that's about it.

Somewhere between the sprint for the 'quad jumper' and their eventual flight off planet.

I've slept since then. Though she still wouldn't have experience with hyperspace flight.

More than two bits and Han does say (repeatedly if I remember) that she knows what she's doing. She so impressed him that he asked her to join up with them. You forget that?

No, it really is two bits. I saw the film for a second time last night. It's two bits. And yes, Han offers her a spot on the crew. He did the same with Luke after a similarly short introduction. Han is a huge fucking softy and always has been.

Now I DEFINITELY don't remember Han offering Luke a spot Oh no wait, I remember, it was after they got off the Death Star. and I KNOW Luke didn't show off his 1337 skills aboard the Millennium Falcon. What I remember from from Luke aboard the MF was him getting shot by training droids trying to learn the most basic force skill and Han telling him to not get cocky because Luke's a decent shot.

I'll stop saying that when there's a chance for her to fail. Like I said, the typical second movie event is to have the main character lose a hand, hopefully she keeps up that tradition.

I do hope they come up with more original adversity for her than losing a hand yet again, but like yourself I do hope to see ALL the characters be rendered more vulnerable in Act II. Vulnerability is important for tension. I have no issue with the argument that things might have seemed to come "too easily" for Rey, the issue I have is with the volume of said argument and some of the fabrications people invent to support it. She is still within the normal operating range for a Star Wars protagonist. [/quote]

Maybe she could lose a leg? Or a nose?

She hasn't needed to be saved yet, so no, she's operating at a higher competence than other SW protagonists.

I never claimed to be a steward, I just said Han seemed like he was acting out of character. The writer's opinion matters, but no one person is the definitive voice on this. Though judging from how many people are saying Rey is a Mary Sue, I imagine I'm not the only one with this opinion.

How many people ARE saying that? I posted an article a while back stating that after analysis of over 1.5 million post film reactions that audience enthusiasm was at an unprecedented 99%. If I were to present that as evidence that there was nothing wrong with the film it would be an absurd example of argumentum ad populum. I'd suggest it would be even more ridiculous to argue that a vocal 1% represents an extraordinary flaw in the central protagonist. Let's just stick to making arguments ourselves, then, and not pretend the fact other people are also making arguments is evidence of anything.

Indeed.

As for Han...he seemed very Han to me. I do not recall any prior Han Solo moments where he told people to "shut up". He doesn't like people insulting the Falcon, but he's never shown an aggressive or surly side in reaction to "being given advice", outside of not liking to hear about the odds.

I remember Han getting mouthy with people who got mouthy with him (princess) and positioned himself as a cocky know-it-all (having been everywhere and seen everything).

And there's this quote:

Look, Your Worshipfulness, let's get one thing straight. I take orders from just one person: me.

snip

I refer you to the aforementioned terrible writing and storytelling that is the norm in the SW universe. Blaming on a "feminist" conspiracy what is better explained by the usual shit writing and desperate pandering to "win back" older fans doesn't work for me.

Then again, I don't need for it to, maybe you do.

Who said I did?

So then, why were any other bombers on the bombing run? A bunch of them went in expecting to take the shot, but nobody else could use the force. Why did Han say the shot was one in a million? He doesn't believe in the force. If the missiles were only moving because of the force, shouldn't he be acknowledging the force is real or wondering how that happened? Also lol at the missiles not moving themselves, missiles have propulsion.

IIRC no one knew Luke had the force, they were even confused when he turned off his targeting computer. Also even Luke never knew he could use the force to do that until moments before. Also I'm pretty sure Han did believe in the force, he just didn't think it controlled his life or anyone elses. I mean by that stage he had seen Obi-Wan turn into a force ghost remember.

The missiles have propulsion but nothing to target so they'd just continue to fly foward. And by "moving" I obviously meant "turning down the incredibly narrow exhaust port mid flight".

Well, the crew of the MF would know if they believed in the force since he actively trained there. They were confused because (we can assume) the computer aimed the missile at the opening. We can assume the missile is supposed to curve like that normally (somehow) because all the other bombers were going along the same run and nobody thought it was weird that Luke's missile curved like that.

And DEFINITELY nobody had seen Obi-Wan as a ghost yet, that didn't happen until the end of VI, and I think only Luke saw them like that. Kenobi had been talking to him, but only him.

As for Han:

Luke Skywalker: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

I don't think he believes in the force.

Well Finn isn't force sensitive and was using a weapon that's been noted to be dangerous to use for non-force sensitives. But didn't he manage to land a blow anyway? And I don't know if it was that one sided against Rey, she was doing fine holding him off before just wrecking his shit.

No I don't recall Finn landing a blow, though correct me if I'm wrong there. When they fight Ren is just destroying him to the extent he toys with him. He even walks away a couple of times (when he's punching his side remember) just to give Finn a chance, because he's beating him easy and likes toying with him. Then he pins him against a tree, disarms him and slices his back.

And it was one sided against Rey. Remember he's not trying to kill her, yet she still has to run away from him. He chases after her chopping through the trees remember, he is winning that fight with ease.

I've slept since then, so I think so, but I'm not solid on it. But yes, he beats Finn pretty well and at worst took some damage (though maybe not). But it does make with nice contrast to Rey, who doesn't get her shit wrecked. As much as they move, she doesn't get beaten.

Makes for a bad villain. As if his ridiculous appearance without his helmet was bad enough. But with Vader you figured he could stop a squad of troopers, though it helps that he can stop blaster shots with his bare(ish) hands.

Making for a bad villain is subjective, I thought he was great. Vader is stronger than Yoda and Yoda managed to take out the two Clone Troopers who were going to kill him, so you'd assume Vader would be able to take out a couple of troopers before he went down. Ren is seemingly weaker than Yoda and other Masters, so probably like four troopers would be able to take him out, just like the rest of the Masters. Hell most of them went down without taking out anyone.

There's room for tactics here as well, the Jedi lost to troopers they thought were allies. The ones that realized they were being betrayed took out plenty of troopers on the way down.

I'd believe that, in which case it's a bad mark on Luke. But that still leaves him fighting however many other padawans when he received about as much training as them (presumably).

He could have surprise attacked them when they were sleeping or anything. I mean they wouldn't have their guard up, he's their friend. Point is we can't really talk about this because we don't know, but it's more likely it was a surprise betrayal when Luke was away.

Hopefully so. Because ironically it would make him look worse if he lost to them in a stand up fight.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I've slept since then. Though she still wouldn't have experience with hyperspace flight.

She never puts the Falcon into hyperspace. Han does.

Now I DEFINITELY don't remember Han offering Luke a spot Oh no wait, I remember, it was after they got off the Death Star. and I KNOW Luke didn't show off his 1337 skills aboard the Millennium Falcon.

Yeah, before the final run on the Death Star.

LUKE
So... you got your reward and you're
just leaving then?

HAN
That's right, yeah! I got some old
debts I've got to pay off with this
stuff. Even if I didn't, you don't
think I'd be fool enough to stick
around here, do you? Why don't you
come with us? You're pretty good in
a fight. I could use you.

What I remember from from Luke aboard the MF was him getting shot by training droids trying to learn the most basic force skill and Han telling him to not get cocky because Luke's a decent shot.

He gets shot by training droids right up until Ben tells him to concentrate and use the force, and then he blocks their shots. Very similar to Rey having her moment of serenity on the cliff and suddenly fighting MUCH more effectively. Unless it is your contention that Luke's few minutes of practice were sufficient, we can surmise that simply being Force sensitive was all he required pull off remarkable feats with a lightsaber (and however unimpressive a training droid is as competition, blocking attacks you CANNOT SEE is remarkable).

She hasn't needed to be saved yet, so no, she's operating at a higher competence than other SW protagonists.

Except for the two times she did need saving. Or did you imagine she was going to flap her wings and fly off Starkiller Base? She never got remotely near a ship. When she finds out Finn has come to save her, she hugs him and says thank you. Not "PFFT I HAD IT COVERED".

I remember Han getting mouthy with people who got mouthy with him (princess) and positioned himself as a cocky know-it-all (having been everywhere and seen everything).

Rey doesn't get mouthy with him, though. She holds him half in awe, is clearly hungry for his approval, and "talks ship" with him (hence him taking a grudging shine to her). He also seems fond of Finn, because Han Solo is a big softy and always has been. Sure, he's a scurrilous rogue who shoots first and asks questions later, but he's never been anything but a melting butterscotch toffee with his friends and associates. Leia was the mistrustful one.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I figured that Finn being, lets charitably call him exuberant at times, was actually a result of him once being a man of little to no personality now trying to find one - indeed the oft-mentioned scene with him and Phasma has Han trying to tell him to dial it down and I could hear Phasma rolling her eyes.

I know from a storytelling perspective it's weak to say the sequel will make him better but since Star Wars is a saga I feel inclined to give it some leeway. I'm sure that getting nearly vivisected by Kylo Ren and put in a coma will smooth him out and now that he'll be hanging with actual friends like Dameron Poe (loved that guy) he should come across more naturally to other people.


As for Rey getting the better of him, well Finn wasn't exactly in the special forces: he was in a support corps on Starkiller base and Jakku was his first combat drop on which he basically broke down. And his escape concluded with crashing into the ground and being unconscious for an unknown period in the desert and then travelling to the nearest settlement which took long enough to dehydrate him so while Rey hardly fought him at his best, it's not like that was a high bar.


That said, who the hell okayed hiring Adam Driver, a man with jug ears to rival the Prince of Wales, as Kylo Ren? Mission accomplished on becoming like your idol Kylo, you have Anakin Skywalker down pat

 

[Winnosh]

Where did the idea that Luke used the force to curve the torpedos come from. That's never ever been stated. The Force wasn't used to alter them, It was used to know WHEN to fire. Any of the pilots could have made the shot, it's just that one missed, and another was shot down by vader. The Force wasn't needed for the missles to get in.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

snip

I don't dislike you personally. I've agreed with you and used your posts as shorthand for "how I probably feel on a topic" while lurking more than you realize.

I dislike you "on Star Wars". Let me leave it at that lest I get another warning for flaming.

As for the portrayal of Han in TFA: it's complicated.

Part of it is that he's too Han. Its been 30 years and he's wearing the same damn outfit doing the same damn shit with the same damn attitude. It's stasis. Ignoring an opportunity tp explore the 3 decades since.

I loathe playing "I would have wrote it this way..." because ideas are dime-a-dozen while actual written material is hard. That said, I'd expect him to be gruffer and more cynical toward all the space sorcery given his backstory leading to TFA.

His leaving Leia holding the bag makes him less sympathetic. The acceptable expression of "man-pain" in blockbusters seems to be abnegating all responsibility.

Where did the idea that Luke used the force to curve the torpedos come from. That's never ever been stated. The Force wasn't used to alter them, It was used to know WHEN to fire. Any of the pilots could have made the shot, it's just that one missed, and another was shot down by vader. The Force wasn't needed for the missles to get in.

Thank you!

The Rebels wouldn't have their entire assault hinge on an impossible shot.

At worst, it's a visual gaffe.

 

[Winnosh]

snip

I don't dislike you personally. I've agreed with you and used your posts as shorthand for "how I probably feel on a topic" while lurking more than you realize.

I dislike you "on Star Wars". Let me leave it at that lest I get another warning for flaming.

As for the portrayal of Han in TFA: it's complicated.

Part of it is that he's too Han. Its been 30 years and he's wearing the same damn outfit doing the same damn shit with the same damn attitude. It's stasis. Ignoring an opportunity tp explore the 3 decades since.

I loathe playing "I would have wrote it this way..." because ideas are dime-a-dozen while actual written material is hard. That said, I'd expect him to be gruffer and more cynical toward all the space sorcery given his backstory leading to TFA.

His leaving Leia holding the bag makes him less sympathetic.

We don't know how long he left Leia. It couldn't have been more than a year or two. Kylo Ren isn't that old and it has to be after he was a grown man since it's after him betraying Luke and in the flashback he already looked like a full grown adult.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

As for the portrayal of Han in TFA: it's complicated.

Part of it is that he's too Han. Its been 30 years and he's wearing the same damn outfit doing the same damn shit with the same damn attitude. It's stasis. Ignoring an opportunity tp explore the 3 decades since.

See, I found him much more paternal, much more "hound dog". He certainly had his classic Han quips, but he seemed a lot more worn down. Some of that is just Harrison Ford the man looking rather craggy at this age, but some of it was Harrison Ford the actor trying to convey Han's grief and regret.

The worst written moments to me were his moments with Leia, because the fallout and emotional devastation that situation would/should have created would likely result in a lot more friction. Then again, this is Star Wars, and it's always taken the drama-meter only so far before stopping.

His leaving Leia holding the bag makes him less sympathetic. The acceptable expression of "man-pain" in blockbusters seems to be abnegating all responsibility.

In fairness to Han, he does appear to try and remedy this, wandering out into a sure-death situation to show his son one last example of compassion.