I think i just conclusively proved fate or a soul exists - just for fun discussion

[BiscuitTrouser]

I was just thinking about fate today and i think i have, unless the entity some call a "soul" or the "spark of life" exists, proven that all our actions are predetermined. Please read my points. And please prove me wrong. I feel kinda crap knowing all my actions are predetermined.

From the second the universe was born, all particals in existance were created and given a speed, a direction and a mass. Now we can predict what two particals will do when they collide. Perfectly, using the laws of physics. Meaning from the second the universe was created every particals movement and collisions, and such ALL subsquent collisions are all 100% predicatable, assuming you had the computing power or brainpower to do this.

In your brain when you make a decisions, everything in your brain functions, each individual cell, because of collisions and electrical impulses. All of these are predictable. If i knew the location and speed of every single atom in your brain, i could predict everything you could think and do. Forever. If i knew the location and speed of every partical when the big bang started i could put them all into a super computer, apply physics, and let it go. And perfectly simulate the universe as we know it, from beggining to end.

Unless people have a soul or an essence or some thing that makes us do truly random things, that can supernaturely divert particals in our brain to do multiple possible actions, everything we do is set in stone. From the second the big bang started. Unless something stops these particals from taking their predetermined paths from the second the big bang gave them some energy, everything in the entire universe can be predicted with 100% accuracy in theory. Nothing is really random. Its a bit depressing to be honest.

Discussion: After reading this do you believe in fate? Im not sure i do. I think ive just proved we have a soul. Either that or fate. Do you believe in free will because of some divine force. As an athiest this makes my head hurt. I think im gonna go do something fun and never think about it again. Im already going to anyway. Its predicted.

EDIT: People seem obsessed with the fact this tiny 10 min thought has somehow dominated my life. It has not. I am calm. This is a tiny musing. Stop telling me to calm down. You just come away looking really really weird... I dont realy mind either way. Its like death being inevitable. I dont really think about it.

EDIT: Ive also been proven wrong a few times by the duel slat test AND the uncertainty theory. Dont bother posting them. I admit i got it wrong. Fun thought though.

 

[Trolldor]

...
I rarely read nonsense as special as that post. I think the last one to make me giggle that much was the guy claiming that Faster-Than-Light travel would be possible if we had barriers.

Eliminate the assumptions and baseless assertions from your post and you'd be left with fuck all.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

...
I rarely read nonsense as special as that post. I think the last one to make me giggle that much was the guy claiming that Faster-Than-Light travel would be possible if we had barriers.

Eliminate the assumptions and baseless assertions from your post and you'd be left with fuck all.

Aww, at least give a single example. What specifically. It seems fine to me? What part of my thought process is wrong.

1. The universe is, very simplistically, a lot of colliding particals.
2. We can predict what colliding particals will do.
3. Because we can, in theory predict, how any partical will react with any other partical, we can predetermine its journey.

Perhaps my phrasing is wrong. Let me make it more simple for you. Everything in the universe, every possible interaction of anything with anything else follows laws of maths and phsyics. These are 100% predictable and constant. As such how can anything be random.. how can anything deviate from one set path?

Your comparison is just silly. Faster than light travel is impossible. Even with reletive speeds as a factor, the fastest you will ever observe anything is lightspeed. Light will also never be observed slower than lightspeed reletive to you, regardless of how fast you are going. What im suggesting is, how is random ( and as such free will to make hypothetically random choices) possible in a universe that functions ONLY on predictable laws and rules. Explain how the first moronic false statement is anything LIKE my fair assumption.

 

[Jonluw]

Spoiler: I have been thinking about the same thing recently, then I read this and was suddenly uncertain

And here's an earlier comic from the same guy:

Spoiler

 

[Oligator]

If i knew the location and speed of every partical when the big bang started i could put them all into a super computer, apply physics, and let it go. And perfectly simulate the universe as we know it, from beggining to end.

Except you can't. Refer to the uncertainty principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
'it is impossible to determine simultaneously both the position and the momentum of an electron or any other particle with any great degree of accuracy or certainty'

You can know where a particle is, but you can't know how fast it is moving.
You can know how fast a particle is moving, but you can't tell where it is.

QED

 

[Richard Hannay]

Where, in your hypothetical simulation of the universe, is the part where you find a way to translate particle collision in the human brain into human action and inaction? Just because the act of particle collision is, so to speak, the brain's dynamic programming language, where's the part where you learn how to actually understand that language?

It's not enough to have a copy of the book. You'd have to know how to read.

 

[Blackality]

Actually I think that you really cannot predict the movement of every particle in the universe.

Isn't the behavior of every atom in the universe affected by the observer? And isn't the position of an electron not defined?

 

[JoJo]

snip

I can see where you're coming from, that argument was quite popular in the 19th century I believe, however then this came along:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

As Wikipedia puts it:

In quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states by precise inequalities that certain pairs of physical properties, such as position and momentum, cannot be simultaneously known to arbitrarily high precision. That is, the more precisely one property is measured, the less precisely the other can be measured.

Published by Werner Heisenberg in 1927, the principle implies that it is impossible to determine simultaneously both the position and the momentum of an electron or any other particle with any great degree of accuracy or certainty. This is not a statement about researchers' ability to measure the quantities. Rather, it is a statement about the system itself. That is, a system cannot be defined to have simultaneously singular values of these pairs of quantities. The principle states that a minimum exists for the product of the uncertainties in these properties that is equal to or greater than one half of ©¤ the reduced Planck constant (©¤ = h/2¥ð)

The low-down is that it is impossible to know everything about a system, not because of limitations due to the measurer, but down to the fundemental uncertainty in the universe.

Edit: Damm, ninja'd

 

[Jonluw]

If i knew the location and speed of every partical when the big bang started i could put them all into a super computer, apply physics, and let it go. And perfectly simulate the universe as we know it, from beggining to end.

Except you can't. Refer to the uncertainty principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
'it is impossible to determine simultaneously both the position and the momentum of an electron or any other particle with any great degree of accuracy or certainty'

You can know where a particle is, but you can't know how fast it is moving.
You can know how fast a particle is moving, but you can't tell where it is.

QED

The main thing I don't understand about the uncertainty principle is this: Sure, you can not know the exact speed and position of a particle; but that shouldn't need to mean that the particle in question does not actually have an exact location and speed at any given moment. The way I see it right now, the particle would still have to move in accordance to its position and speed, but we would never be able to predict its movements since we can't know both speed and position.

In short: I don't quite see how the uncertainty principle disproves a predetermined fate.

 

[Odegauger]

Don't worry, you didn't prove that we have souls, you can go back to being an atheist now.

 

[PoliceBox63]

Dude just take a chill pill and enjoy life.

 

[thiosk]

Consider how many particles it takes to compute the paths of a finite number of particles. The largest supercomputers in the world are tasked with calculating the motions of protein folding, for example. Months of computation time for 10 nanoseconds of folding, for mere thousands of particles. The supercomputer is made of trillions upon trillions of particles, calculating the motions of thousands of particles.

You will simply never have enough particles to calculate the motions of all particles for billions of years.

That, and even the dawn of the universe remains unclear. The big bang theory is cute and beloved by all, but it turns out that the inflationary phase of the universe-- a key component theory to explain how the universe got so big so fast-- isn't necessary if there was no original singularity, as posited by M Theory.

Stay tuned for SCIENCE.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

If i knew the location and speed of every partical when the big bang started i could put them all into a super computer, apply physics, and let it go. And perfectly simulate the universe as we know it, from beggining to end.

Except you can't. Refer to the uncertainty principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
'it is impossible to determine simultaneously both the position and the momentum of an electron or any other particle with any great degree of accuracy or certainty'

You can know where a particle is, but you can't know how fast it is moving.
You can know how fast a particle is moving, but you can't tell where it is.

QED

I figure that regardless of what we can know or not know, that partical DOES have a speed and a location, regardless of if we can know it or not. It still follows laws.

OR else every tiny ounce of free will is because of the tiny leeway in location or momentun, a margin of uncertainty if you will, as small as a plank... That seems very miniscule.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Dude just take a chill pill and enjoy life.

Read the last line , i figured someone would come in with this or "get laidz lolololol trollolol" I was just thinkin about stuff. Ya know, when your bored in class or some other thing. Im not going all emo depressive because of this shiz. I dont really care why i do anything to be honest, as long as its fun and it doesnt hurt anyone.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Determinism is irrelevant to human action.

Even if all your actions for the rest of your life were predetermined from the beginning of the universe the only way for you to find out what those actions are going to be is to live them.

 

[AnkaraTheFallen]

These are 100% predictable and constant. As such how can anything be random.. how can anything deviate from one set path?

I'm sorry to say, but this is wrong... people have concious thought and can make decisions... these can never be predicted, everyone has a slightly different reaction to everything and never acts the same in the same situation... this was the main argument that also proved that we are unable to predict the future

 

[Ravek]

In short: I don't quite see how the uncertainty principle disproves a predetermined fate.

What is the difference between something that does not exist, and something that is impossible to detect even in principle?

If (because of the uncertainty principle) there is fundamentally no way to predict exactly what will happen, then events aren't predetermined. You could imagine events being predetermined 'behind the scenes', but since we can't distinguish that situation from the one where events are not predetermined at all, we must consider them to be the same.

this was the main argument that also proved that we are unable to predict the future

But we are able to predict the future. I predict that tomorrow the sun will rise, and it will be at least 5 degrees Celsius outside around here in the afternoon, and that if I were to throw a ball upwards unobstructed, it would come back down.
Joking aside, my point is that while we can't predict the future exactly or infallibly, we can certainly make useful and true predictions about the future.

 

[ArcWinter]

So everything is predetermined by natural, unchangeable boundaries.

Okay. That changed literally nothing.

If predetermination is correct, you will choose, and that choice was always meant to happen, and is currently unknown to you. If predetermination is incorrect, then you will choose, and those choices will be unknown to you.

So either you do things, and they turn out to be fated, or you do things, and they turn out to be your choice. The important thing here is that in both situations, YOU DO THINGS. You will make the same choice if the universe is predetermined or not. It's one of those things that you don't need to care about because it won't affect anyone ever, unless they delude themselves into thinking it will.

And if that doesn't help, then cheer up! Entropy will eventually cause the heat-death of the universe, so any choice you make won't matter! That is some sort of predestination, except less centered on humanity, because humanity doesn't matter.

Perspective is awesome/totally sucks, right?!

However, personally, predetermination is true. All a person is is memories and genetics, all of which are stored in the brain. Get a large enough calculator, and whoop, there's one's life spelled out for ya. I don't see how this is depressing, however. Nobody actually knows your predetermination, and as they say, it's the journey, not the destination.

 

[Blue_vision]

If i knew the location and speed of every partical when the big bang started i could put them all into a super computer, apply physics, and let it go. And perfectly simulate the universe as we know it, from beggining to end.

Except you can't. Refer to the uncertainty principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
'it is impossible to determine simultaneously both the position and the momentum of an electron or any other particle with any great degree of accuracy or certainty'

You can know where a particle is, but you can't know how fast it is moving.
You can know how fast a particle is moving, but you can't tell where it is.

QED

Pretty much. So, nothing in the universe is predeterminable. And still, there's no conclusive proof of fate or a soul in the OP, so I don't really get the point of this thread...

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

These are 100% predictable and constant. As such how can anything be random.. how can anything deviate from one set path?

I'm sorry to say, but this is wrong... people have concious thought and can make decisions... these can never be predicted, everyone has a slightly different reaction to everything and never acts the same in the same situation... this was the main argument that also proved that we are unable to predict the future

Yeah a soul. Your brain works with partical collisions and electric impulses. Even random impulse jumps to make creativity or different brain make ups to give different reactions to situations can be predicted, electricity is predictable. So its fate. Or a soul. This concious thought you speak of should be predictable. Or theres a soul.