I used to dislike Anita Sarkeesian, but...

FriendlyFyre

New member
Aug 7, 2013
93
0
0
I made an account just so I could post this, so know that I believe what I have to say is important for each and every man and women who reads it.

I tried to break it up into readable chunks so your eyes don't glaze over, but please just read it because I can't summarize everything I'm trying to say in a tl;dr.

Thanks to re-watching her videos and a little bit of independent research I now understand her, and why it's so important that gamers of both sexes think deeply about what she saying. Because she's not only trying to tell us that a trope is sexist, she's asking us to understand that the reason for this is that we've accepted a fundamentally biased idea of the world. And this bias while it may seem harmless has led us to believe certain tropes are "normal," when in fact they are evidence of a larger abnormal trend in the world.

First off I think we need to clear up some ideas about the different areas of feminism. Men and women who don't want to claim the label feminist often say they are "humanists" or "gender egalitarians," and often see the primary challenges to equality as social issues like the glass ceiling, access to abortion, and slut-shaming.

Something they may not know however is that these qualities are already aspects of a pre-existing ideology, "Liberal feminism." They focus on the individuals' right to do and say things, with the empowering belief that once a woman can do anything a man does, and without her gender being mentioned, she is able to survive in the world just as well as he is.

This is very compelling and logical to support because it centers around changing our conscious behaviors, and it's clear that many video games embrace this fully, such as having female soldiers in Gears of War, a more vulnerable Laura Croft in the Tomb Raider reboot, and even Samus Aran's genderless portrayal in the original Metroid games.

It's clear however that Anita is not a liberal feminist though, because everything she mentions in her videos is tied to the influence of patriarchy. This marks her as a "Radical feminist" (A loaded word to be sure, but one that I believe has been rather unfairly maligned) who believes that either gender cannot achieve true equality until we examine the underlying system that we consider "normal" in our lives.

Patriarchy refers to a couple factors including men being in positions of power, our media being male dominated, male centric, but most importantly it describes how our world functions by emphasizing which kind of traits are both USEFUL and ENCOURAGED to have. It is a bias so subtle that we forget that there is any other way to live our lives, and so dangerous that it can lead us to demonize feminists just for wanting to create a more equal world.

Surprisingly, you are familiar with these traits. Strength (both physical and mental) is one; another is resilience, coolness under pressure, rationality, and perseverance. You might notice that these are often common traits of protagonists in games, from Solid Snake, to Donkey Kong, to Master Chief. This is because in our patriarchal world, these traits are shown to be the most effective to both survival, and success.

You'll also notice that traits associated with femininity, including being emotionally open, vulnerability, caring, or cooperative, are rarely shown to be useful in game scenarios, even though they can add depth to a character.
This is what Anita is talking about when she says the Damsel in Distress is harmful, because it normalizes the notion that a female can't escape their captors, mostly because to escape would call for masculine skills that she does not have, or even if she does have them (Sheik from Ocarina of time), is still prevented from doing so by the confines of the narrative.

Even more troubling is the sexualization of females in games in ways that serve the player (fan service, skimpy outfits, press X to bone attractive character A) and don't suggest that females can have their own concept of sexuality. I don't believe this is intentional, but I do believe that we write it off as normal when it is really a construction that favors male viewers, and inadvertently belittles female players.



If there is anything that you take from this thread, it's to remember that this is a woman who LOVES games, has grown up playing them, and cared enough to start a kickstarter in order to bring them into our cultural consciousness in a way which has never really been done before. Women like her have been in academics and been championed for their insight and ability to make us reconsider the meaning of stories and enhance our understanding of the human experience; and acting as if she's ruining our fun or doing it for attention is to do a tremendous disservice to games themselves.

Though it was understandable for many gamers to feel threatened by someone saying they wanted to change our games, the criticism she's received seems motivated by a need to protect what we view as "normal," and I think we need to seriously consider WHY we seem so unwilling to believe that what we see in our games and gaming communities is not normal.

The most important thing I want to make clear is this; I am not trying to make gamers feel wrong or sexist for playing or liking games of these type, I am not trying to say that the industry must change (Only that i believe it is in many gamers, both male and female's best interests to do so), and I am not suggesting that that instances of these behaviors could ever cause people to be violent, sexist, or misogynistic. Down that road lies censorship, which i will not travel for I know not where it ends.

My only goal has been the same as Anita's really, to open up as many gamers who are willing to the possibility that what many gamers have come to see as "normal" is in reality the result of a deeply ingrained set of values and beliefs about the world that have gone unchallenged for too long. But maybe if we stop treating each new iteration of Damsel in distress, or murdered loved one as just another rehash of the trope, and instead ask WHY it is so prevalent a trope, and WHY developers feel both the need to use it and to adhere strictly to it, we'll give them a compelling reason to evolve their stories.
 

Skops

New member
Mar 9, 2010
820
0
0
*sigh*... With all due respect, I just don't care. And have never cared about this 'sexism' issue. How many bloody threads are we gunna have about this before we put this to bed? I'm not upset, I'm exhausted of this topic and I wonder when this community will have some ELSE to talk about.
 
Dec 14, 2009
15,526
0
0
I don't dislike the fact she has ideas.

I dislike the fact she closes off any chance of anyone debating the issues with her ideas.

If she were a scientist, she'd refuse to have her research peer reviewed.
 

FriendlyFyre

New member
Aug 7, 2013
93
0
0
Skops said:
*sigh*... With all due respect, I just don't care. And have never cared about this 'sexism' issue. How many bloody threads are we gunna have about this before we put this to bed? I'm not upset, I'm exhausted of this topic and I wonder when this community will have some ELSE to talk about.
I understand a lot of people not caring and wanting to move on. This is a sensitive topic because it involves something very personal to us, and sometimes dissecting things can make it harder for us to enjoy them. But we're a community that supports each other, and since I think it's not going away we should make an effort to engage.

The the fact is we talk about something new every day, at least according to what I see in the forums, and so I think that it deserves as much a chance of discussion as the latest Jimquisition video. Especially because the reaction to her was so vile and completely uncalled for.
 

Eduku

New member
Sep 11, 2010
691
0
0
Another thread which could have been posted in any of the other countless Sarkeesian threads. I think the mods should be more active in merging these threads together.
 

FriendlyFyre

New member
Aug 7, 2013
93
0
0
Daystar Clarion said:
I don't dislike the fact she has ideas.

I dislike the fact she closes off any chance of anyone debating the issues with her ideas.

If she were a scientist, she'd refuse to have her research peer reviewed.
I'm always curious why people say she leaves no room for discussion just because she disabled her youtube comments. You could always e-mail her site and engage from that angle, it's not like youtube is the only way to start dialogues, though I believe these are pretty rare given the age of youtube commenters.

Of course the real problem is that she probably has thousands of those (and more then likely just a ton of ugly hate mail) and can't respond to everything as fast as you'd like.
So I guess talking about her on a forum is the next best thing in my mind...

As for her "research," isn't her thesis available online?
 

FriendlyFyre

New member
Aug 7, 2013
93
0
0
Eduku said:
Another thread which could have been posted in any of the other countless Sarkeesian threads. I think the mods should be more active in merging these threads together.
Sorry, I'm new. I did my best to consider where some of the similar threads had gone before and decided this was the best option, because starting from scratch seems like the only thing you can do when dealing with such a delicate topic.
 

Fappy

\[T]/
Jan 4, 2010
12,010
0
41
Country
United States
Eduku said:
Another thread which could have been posted in any of the other countless Sarkeesian threads. I think the mods should be more active in merging these threads together.
This thread has a pretty specific goal in mind and goes about it in a constructive and organized way. It can be easily justified to stand on its own.

OT: I agree with the bulk of your post. My problem with Anita is twofold:

- Her material seems better suited for a research paper. Her videos simply aren't engaging enough (despite their high production value)

- She spends far too much time getting bogged down in lists and details instead of outlining and dissecting possible solutions.
 

broca

New member
Apr 30, 2013
118
0
0
FriendlyFyre said:
My only goal has been the same as Anita's really, to open up as many gamers who are willing to the possibility that what many gamers have come to see as "normal" is in reality the result of a deeply ingrained set of values and beliefs about the world that have gone unchallenged for too long. But maybe if we stop treating each new iteration of Damsel in distress, or murdered loved one as just another rehash of the trope, and instead ask WHY it is so prevalent a trope, and WHY developers feel both the need to use it and to adhere strictly to it, we'll give them a compelling reason to evolve their stories.
Or you stop to try to convince people that your feminism based interpretation of the state of gaming is right and instead settle for a position that less ideological, less controversial and more likely to lead somewhere. Shouldn't it be enough to believe that the damsel trope is lazy and bad story telling and therefore should be used less instead of insisting on everyone sees the feminist "truth"? Because i would guess that many people on forum could agree to the first but not to the second. But instead it mostly becomes a discussion about whether one thing or another is sexist or objectification or leads to real live aggression against violence (my favorite) and in turn a discussion of this terms and in turn a discussion of feminism in general; all of which (as should be clear by now) has a close to zero chance of changing the opinion of anyone of either side.

Edit: Perhaps i come off as harsh, but i really have no problem with your post. If anything, i like it: you calmly explain your position and it clearly shows that you care about the subject. But still this stuff has been debated so many times (mostly without leading anywhere) and i don't see why it should be better this time as everyone has made up his/her mind by now.
 

Thebazilly

New member
Jul 7, 2010
128
0
0
Daystar Clarion said:
I don't dislike the fact she has ideas.

I dislike the fact she closes off any chance of anyone debating the issues with her ideas.

If she were a scientist, she'd refuse to have her research peer reviewed.
I'd refuse peer review, too, if it consisted of drawings of me being raped or flash games of punching me in the face.
 

Zenn3k

New member
Feb 2, 2009
1,323
0
0
Daystar Clarion said:
I don't dislike the fact she has ideas.

I dislike the fact she closes off any chance of anyone debating the issues with her ideas.

If she were a scientist, she'd refuse to have her research peer reviewed.
Exactly.

I automatically dismiss her entire message because she doesn't allow comments or even voting on her videos. Someone who does that clearly has a major ego problem and thats a shadow on everything she's trying to say.

Lest we forget that she is terribly under-informed on the topic of gaming and shouldn't be talking about it in the first place. The ***** doesn't even know WHO Samus is, and wants to talk about women in gaming. Fuck off Anita.
 

Andy Shandy

Fucked if I know
Jun 7, 2010
4,797
0
0
Eh, I still "nothing" Anita Sarkeesian.

I nothing'd her before this thread, and I nothing her now. The only reason I watch the videos is (to try) to understand why the forum blows up every time she's mentioned. So far, no success.

I do sympathize with the abuse she receives and has received, if that means anything I suppose.
 

FriendlyFyre

New member
Aug 7, 2013
93
0
0
Fappy said:
Eduku said:
Another thread which could have been posted in any of the other countless Sarkeesian threads. I think the mods should be more active in merging these threads together.
This thread has a pretty specific goal in mind and goes about it in a constructive and organized way. It can be easily justified to stand on its own.

OT: I agree with the bulk of your post. My problem with Anita is twofold:

- Her material seems better suited for a research paper. Her videos simply aren't engaging enough (despite their high production value)

- She spends far too much time getting bogged down in lists and details instead of outlining and dissecting possible solutions.
Thanks for responding. I do think she is not as engaging as say, Yahtzee, or Moviebob, but I think this was because she wanted us to take the matter seriously and really think on it. Much of the gamer crowd is used to being entertained, and so she came across as a bit of an odd duck in the gaming world.

I used to think that her not offering many solutions was a negative as well, but now I understand that you can't offer solutions to problems that people either don't think exist, or misunderstand entirely. Given how so many people have said she's just wrong, nitpicky, and "unrealistic," I don't really think her saying we need to emphasize more feminine narratives in the gaming market would really get through other then just "games need to change to be more progressive"
 

Muspelheim

New member
Apr 7, 2011
2,023
0
0
Yes, youtube comments fill the same roll and effect of peer reviews.

(No, they are not. Not when they are abusive rubbish.)
 

FriendlyFyre

New member
Aug 7, 2013
93
0
0
Andy Shandy said:
Eh, I still "nothing" Anita Sarkeesian.

I nothing'd her before this thread, and I nothing her now. The only reason I watch the videos is (to try) to understand why the forum blows up every time she's mentioned. So far, no success.

I do sympathize with the abuse she receives and has received, if that means anything I suppose.
You say you sympathize with her as far as her abuse has gone, what about sympathizing with her about being a gamer?

Isn't it worth noting how her putting a feminist perspective into the market caused such unheard of denial and defense of the games and community? Why do we cling so hard to this belief that all these things are "normal" even when it includes people telling her she's "too sensitive" and that she wants to "ruin our fun"?
 

ShiningAmber

New member
Mar 18, 2013
107
0
0
I absolutely love to see the point people raise that they dislike Sarkeesian due to the fact that she doesn't allow "debate", ratings or comments on her youtube videos.

Do you honestly think that we're going to have an educated, calm and collected discussion on youtube? Do you ever read the comments on most videos? If she kept the comments open for your dear debate, it would merely be insults based on her gender, threats of rape or death or both.

Be realistic. If I were her, I'd do the same thing. Like she honestly needs to read anymore threats on her person so you can have your 'debate'.
 

broca

New member
Apr 30, 2013
118
0
0
FriendlyFyre said:
Daystar Clarion said:
I don't dislike the fact she has ideas.

I dislike the fact she closes off any chance of anyone debating the issues with her ideas.

If she were a scientist, she'd refuse to have her research peer reviewed.
I'm always curious why people say she leaves no room for discussion just because she disabled her youtube comments. You could always e-mail her site and engage from that angle, it's not like youtube is the only way to start dialogues, though I believe these are pretty rare given the age of youtube commenters.

Of course the real problem is that she probably has thousands of those (and more then likely just a ton of ugly hate mail) and can't respond to everything as fast as you'd like.
So I guess talking about her on a forum is the next best thing in my mind...

As for her "research," isn't her thesis available online?
I have no problems with her disabling youtube comments, but she should have made a way of public interaction and discussion available, especially as she tries to educate/convince people. She could have for example included a forum with some (temporarily) hired mods as a stretch goal, where she could have set the rules for what's acceptable and let the mods take care of the rest. It wouldn't been perfect, but it would imo far better than having nothing.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

New member
Mar 28, 2010
1,028
0
0
FriendlyFyre said:
I'm always curious why people say she leaves no room for discussion just because she disabled her youtube comments. You could always e-mail her site and engage from that angle, it's not like youtube is the only way to start dialogues, though I believe these are pretty rare given the age of youtube commenters.

Of course the real problem is that she probably has thousands of those (and more then likely just a ton of ugly hate mail) and can't respond to everything as fast as you'd like.
So I guess talking about her on a forum is the next best thing in my mind...

As for her "research," isn't her thesis available online?
The problem is not merely that she disables Youtube comments. I don't think one person could make a reasonable argument against doing that, given the general attitude, intelligence, and cogency of the average Youtube comment on non-controversial videos, let alone ones that handle sensitive or controversial topics. The problem is that she largely ignores, or at least fails to respond to in an intellectually-honest and charitable manner, reasonable, respectful, and cogent criticism of her work -- regardless of venue. It's not even a matter of not having access to, or not reading, criticism, given the amount of time she spends discussing the unreasonable, destructive, or ill-conceived criticism and repeating the threats and invective levied against her that only other A-holes and trolls attempt to defend -- if she has that much time to respond to the internet's sewage, she certainly has the time to respond to quality criticism.

She seems to have more interest in knocking down straw men, and creating an echo chamber than a meaningful, productive dialog. I concluded a long time ago she falls into the category most liberal, academic radical feminists fall into -- she's so convinced she's right, and that her cause is righteous and just, anyone "capable" and/or "has done their research" will agree with her by dint of her having spoken, and that anyone who disagrees or approaches her outside the confines of radical feminist discourse is simply an unfortunate product of patriarchy. It's not a narrative designed really for education, outreach, or encouraging discourse; it's by, of, and for those who share her beliefs for the purpose of self-perpetuity. At least, that's my opinion.

That's before you consider the number of questions about the veracity and ethics of her work -- whether or not she's a plagiarist, whether her research was dutifully done in its full context (i.e. whether she played these games about which she speaks, given displayed ignorance of plot points, characters, and the context of shown game scenes). Hell, I remember her critique of Kanye's video "Monster" in which she completely missed the entire point of the song and video...the very point she was making.
 

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
ShiningAmber said:
I absolutely love to see the point people raise that they dislike Sarkeesian due to the fact that she doesn't allow "debate", ratings or comments on her youtube videos.

Do you honestly think that we're going to have an educated, calm and collected discussion on youtube? Do you ever read the comments on most videos? If she kept the comments open for your dear debate, it would merely be insults based on her gender, threats of rape or death or both.

Be realistic. If I were her, I'd do the same thing. Like she honestly needs to read anymore threats on her person so you can have your 'debate'.
I read some YouTube comments once, by accident.

I think they gave me cancer.

Really, people started by disliking her and just working backwards to justify it. It has nothing to do with anyone rationally believing there is value in YouTube debates.

broca said:
I have no problems with her disabling youtube comments, but she should have made a way of public interaction and discussion available, especially as she tries to educate/convince people. She could have for example included a forum with some (temporarily) hired mods as a stretch goal, where she could have set the rules for what's acceptable and let the mods take care of the rest. It wouldn't been perfect, but it would imo far better than having nothing.
Why? Not only are her videos completely basic Feminism 101 (and shouldn't really be generating 1/100th of the interest or controversy they seem to), why does it matter a jot if there is a platform on which people can debate her? It's fine if you WANT to, but that doesn't reflect on the quality of the argument in the slightest.
 

LetalisK

New member
May 5, 2010
2,769
0
0
Daystar Clarion said:
I don't dislike the fact she has ideas.

I dislike the fact she closes off any chance of anyone debating the issues with her ideas.

If she were a scientist, she'd refuse to have her research peer reviewed.
I'm not a fan of hers at all, but that's quite the leap in logic. You're assuming her attitude towards direct criticism wouldn't change if she and her research, or whatever, was elevated to the professional level, which is absurd. Perhaps it's not criticism she takes umbrage with but the quality of said criticism.