I want to believe...

[Arakasi]

-snip for massive space-

Snip snip.

I am so confused about your post that I'll just going to have to explain the entire thing so you can understand.
There is no free will.
Why? Because matter either acts in a determined manner (through cause and effect) or an indetermined matter (there is an element of randomness to the process. As the brain is made of matter, anything which happens inside the brain was caused either by priod causes or by prior causes with a mix of randomness.
By what standard is this free?

Also, if there were a higher power, by what means could we be free then?

?Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.?

 

[Matthewmagic]

I believe the US dollar is going to collapse, or slowly inflate, due too inherant weaknesses in the US economy.

 

[Mid Boss]

I don't believe in anything. I mean, I believe there ARE aliens somewhere. Are they here? No. Where are they? Why do they only target bored red necks to do semi homo erotic experiments on? We'll probably talk to them some day but chances are they're using a technology to communicate hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than us. That's IF intelligent life doesn't invariably destroy itself.

Are there ghosts? No. Every place where a person has died would have them. Hell, a hospital would be filled to the brim with them.

Is there karma? No. There are some truly horrible people in the world who have everything a person could possibly ask for who will live long, healthy lives filled with making everyone around them miserable while terrible things still happen to wonderful people.

Magic? No. I'd be the first person buying some eye of newt and drawing some pentagrams.

God? Afterlife? No and no.

The world would be a much more interesting place if any of those things exist. I can understand people's want and need for them. Life is long, boring, often horrible filled with pain and random tragedies. It's probably why I play so many video games. Life sucks. If you're poor and have nothing to believe in your only recourse is escapism.

 

[Hagi]

Not too many contrary opinions here.

Though I do believe free will doesn't exist, we're all just insanely complicated biological automatons. I think that's still something most don't believe in.

And no, that doesn't mean I consider human life worthless. It means I consider insanely complicated biological automatons to be valuable beyond measure.

 

[elvor0]

-snip for massive space-

Snip snip.

I am so confused about your post that I'll just going to have to explain the entire thing so you can understand.
There is no free will.
Why? Because matter either acts in a determined manner (through cause and effect) or an indetermined matter (there is an element of randomness to the process. As the brain is made of matter, anything which happens inside the brain was caused either by priod causes or by prior causes with a mix of randomness.
By what standard is this free?

Also, if there were a higher power, by what means could we be free then?

?Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.?

Yeah my post was a more posed towards people who see it in a more "spiritual" light, it was very much discussing the matter in a philosophical way(ugh I'm hating the fact that I have to describe it that way, pretentiousness abounds ¬¬). Which is generally the majority when it comes to this and what I was expecting. It's a very complex and awkward subject manner, which no one can answer for certain, especially while I'm sober, hence why my original post was so lengthy, a lot of questions need to be asked of the matter and what it encompasses. However your explanation does seem a bit... Spartan.

A scientific approach to the matter certainly makes for an easier discussion though. I suppose you could technically see it like that, but to view the world that way would be rather depressing to me, to say the least, I already believe that we have no reason to be here other than because we are, so to see everything be determined on a literal atomic scale would be totally crushing.

Enough rambling though, to answer your point, because that's not the same thing as free will. Yes if for example I stick a match in a bottle of oil, it will burst into flames, as a result of its atomic structure, and if I find something I like, my brain will release endorphins, making me feel happy, I have no effect over this. I do however have the ability to make decisions, my brain isn't pre-programmed to make decisions for me before I knew they would happen, because they haven't happened yet, as I'm sure you'd agree. Otherwise this would imply some sort of link between everyone and everything so that we all synch up with our pre recorded responses.

Things behave in a certain way because they are the way that they are, but this is not the same as the concept of free will, as a sentient being, I am capable of decision making, thus unless /everything/ is pre decided, I am the master of my own fate. The oil will always burn if I set it alight, but it is the fact that I alone have the choice to set it on fire that demonstrates my own capability of free will.

On Maimonides point: That is merely speculation. No one may claim to know god (if he even exists), apparently and thus speaking for him in matters that we don't even know to be true seems rather superfluous. I am stating that for me, a higher power would need to be in play to govern things, otherwise we're saying the universe governs itself into this pre destined fate, implying /some/ degree of sentience in the universe.

Even then, Jehova is stated as being all knowing. That does not necessarily mean he knows how everything will happen, it may mean that he knows everything that is currently happening, or that he can see in to the future, in which case, should he tell someone that something bad will happen to them, and they take steps to prevent this, the future has been altered and thus was not pre-determined to happen, leading to free will.

Of course a higher power doesn't mean that we will or not have free will either way, just that I find a lack of free will without a higher power to be difficult to swallow.

Otherwise we're just saying that pre-determined things happen...because they do. And that's a cop out answer. That everything, the first cells, the big bang, the path of evolution, decisions of humans, instincts of animals, who will live and who will die, are all prerecorded into the very fabric of reality, and that no one has a say in what will happen, from the alpha to the omega of time.

Although now that there's a couple of people in the thread talking about this "biologically pre-recorded script thingy", I'm starting to worry it's something that's popped up on the internet and people have taken to just saying. Like pan sexual, or demi sexual. I hate those guys.

Can you direct me to anything that gives me a more detailed article on this?

 

[Arakasi]

-snip for massive space-

Snip snip.

I am so confused about your post that I'll just going to have to explain the entire thing so you can understand.
There is no free will.
Why? Because matter either acts in a determined manner (through cause and effect) or an indetermined matter (there is an element of randomness to the process. As the brain is made of matter, anything which happens inside the brain was caused either by priod causes or by prior causes with a mix of randomness.
By what standard is this free?

Also, if there were a higher power, by what means could we be free then?

?Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.?

Yeah my post was a more posed towards people who see it in a more "spiritual" light, it was very much discussing the matter in a philosophical way(ugh I'm hating the fact that I have to describe it that way, pretentiousness abounds ¬¬). Which is generally the majority when it comes to this and what I was expecting.

I have never seen someone come from a religious or spiritual background and use that to disprove free will, it has always been from a scientific background, see this poll: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.397699-Poll-Free-Will-and-You?page=1
Also, saying philosophical does not make you pretentious, it is a philosophical matter.

A scientific approach to the matter certainly makes for an easier discussion though. I suppose you could technically see it like that, but to view the world that way would be rather depressing to me, to say the least, I already believe that we have no reason to be here other than because we are, so to see everything be determined on a literal atomic scale would be totally crushing.

Depressing for you or no, truth takes presidence. Besides, it doesn't really change how you act.

Enough rambling though, to answer your point, because that's not the same thing as free will. Yes if for example I stick a match in a bottle of oil, it will burst into flames, as a result of its atomic structure, and if I find something I like, my brain will release endorphins, making me feel happy, I have no effect over this.

Anything your brain does is related to its atomic structure, from making you happy, to how you react to it making you happy.

I do however have the ability to make decisions, my brain isn't pre-programmed to make decisions for me before I knew they would happen, because they haven't happened yet, as I'm sure you'd agree. Otherwise this would imply some sort of link between everyone and everything so that we all synch up with our pre recorded responses.

Decision making is a programmed response, programmed by evolution. Computers can also make decisions, there's AI (still nowhere near as advanced as humans, but that's beyond the point) that from an outside perspective could seem to have free will. And actually, from a neurobiological point of view, your brain does know what decision you are going to make before you are consiously aware of it: http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
Perhaps you should also read The Selfish Gene, which has quite good explanations as to why we are often very different in terms of how we behave from an evolutionary perspective.

Things behave in a certain way because they are the way that they are

And the same applies to humans, just like it applies to animals, plants and any other thing.

...but this is not the same as the concept of free will

You're right, but it affects it, insofar as it breaks the traditional notion of free will.

...as a sentient being, I am capable of decision making

Your brain is nothing more than a very advanced survival computer. Any decisions you make are a result of your genetics and how your environment has affected those genetics.

...thus unless /everything/ is pre decided, I am the master of my own fate.

I already argued this. I personally am a determinist, meaning that I think everything is already pre-determined, but even if indeterminism were true which it very well could be, that leaves no room for free will either, as indeterminism allows only for semi-random actions to occur, actions which you still aren't in control of.

The oil will always burn if I set it alight, but it is the fact that I alone have the choice to set it on fire that demonstrates my own capability of free will.

Wrong.
Your choice was determined by all the factors that affected your genetics, your environment and thus your brain, and therefore you had no actual choice in the matter. You had a choice insofar as you could consider other options, but you did not perform those other options because of preceeding factors that were outside of your control.

On Maimonides point: That is merely speculation. No one may claim to know god (if he even exists), apparently and thus speaking for him in matters that we don't even know to be true seems rather superfluous. I am stating that for me, a higher power would need to be in play to govern things, otherwise we're saying the universe governs itself into this pre destined fate, implying /some/ degree of sentience in the universe.

...What?
If god can be broken by logic, then it follows that god in that manner probably does not exist. As for the second sentence... I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'll try respond anyway.
Why would a higher power need to govern things? We have the laws of physics, we understand to some extent that the unvierse as we know it follows rules, but that does not even remotely imply a higher power.
If the universe were pre-determined, and I think it is, that would by no means imply a sentience in the universe.

Even then, Jehova is stated as being all knowing. That does not necessarily mean he knows how everything will happen-

All-knowing means he knows everything, as far as I know, the future is included under the banner of 'everything', because everything is included under the banner of everything.

...it may mean that he knows everything that is currently happening, or that he can see in to the future...

All knowing means it has to be able to see into the future.

...in which case, should he tell someone that something bad will happen to them

He would, were the Jewish god not an asshole.

...and they take steps to prevent this, the future has been altered and thus was not pre-determined to happen, leading to free will.

No. The god would see the event happen unless they intervened, as they know everything, and thus would either act or not act based upon that knowledge. If they did act, it did not change the future, it was merely someone acting on knowledge. If I were to read a book and predict a disaster, unless someone fixed it, and they do fix it, would you be saying I changed the future? Perhaps, but not in the sense that anything else could have happened.

Of course a higher power doesn't mean that we will or not have free will either way, just that I find a lack of free will without a higher power to be difficult to swallow.

Omnisence is incompatable with free will. A higher power without omnisence is in effect blind, and not all-powerful, so they may be a higher power, but that means little. I could say a higher power than me is America, because it has a military and I don't.

Otherwise we're just saying that pre-determined things happen...because they do. And that's a cop out answer.

No, that's not what we're saying.
Pre-determined things happen because they were caused by past things. There's nothing more to it.

That everything, the first cells, the big bang, the path of evolution, decisions of humans, instincts of animals, who will live and who will die, are all prerecorded into the very fabric of reality, and that no one has a say in what will happen, from the alpha to the omega of time.

That's about the size of it. Deal with it.

 

[hooblabla6262]

I try not to believe in anything that I do not have evidence for. That being said, I have seen some things which I could not explain.

One was a big white creature that moved fast enough to almost appear as a white blur. My friend and I were walking down a hill surrounded by woods to our cars parked at the bottom. We could see something big and white near the cars when all of a sudden it ran up the hill and past us in to the woods.

Where were you and about how big was the creature? I ask because here in the mid-west/south-west parts of
America & in Northern Mexico there are coyotes & coyote/dog hybrids that are often a light gray color and
and can move *really* fast when they want to.

It was summer, in the woods of eastern Canada. And this "beast" was easily bigger than I.
It was in the middle of the night, but the creature had such white fur that it was very easily visible.

It's hard to give any more detail, as it easily traveled 15 meters uphill then back in to the woods in under 5 seconds.
At least, it felt like 5 seconds. Difficult to judge these things that happened so long ago.

 

[Strazdas]

despite the proof to the contraty i still cant seem to get rid of my naivety and believe that humans are worth saving.

 

[wrightguy0]

I believe Werewolves and other monsters actually exist and that there are people with abilities beyond our understanding.

 

[Little Woodsman]

I try not to believe in anything that I do not have evidence for. That being said, I have seen some things which I could not explain.

One was a big white creature that moved fast enough to almost appear as a white blur. My friend and I were walking down a hill surrounded by woods to our cars parked at the bottom. We could see something big and white near the cars when all of a sudden it ran up the hill and past us in to the woods.

Where were you and about how big was the creature? I ask because here in the mid-west/south-west parts of
America & in Northern Mexico there are coyotes & coyote/dog hybrids that are often a light gray color and
and can move *really* fast when they want to.

It was summer, in the woods of eastern Canada. And this "beast" was easily bigger than I.
It was in the middle of the night, but the creature had such white fur that it was very easily visible.

It's hard to give any more detail, as it easily traveled 15 meters uphill then back in to the woods in under 5 seconds.
At least, it felt like 5 seconds. Difficult to judge these things that happened so long ago.

Well it definitely wasn't a coyote then....
(You don't have coyotes in Canada, do you?)
Was it a quadraped? If it was it could have been a wolf.

 

[hooblabla6262]

I try not to believe in anything that I do not have evidence for. That being said, I have seen some things which I could not explain.

One was a big white creature that moved fast enough to almost appear as a white blur. My friend and I were walking down a hill surrounded by woods to our cars parked at the bottom. We could see something big and white near the cars when all of a sudden it ran up the hill and past us in to the woods.

Where were you and about how big was the creature? I ask because here in the mid-west/south-west parts of
America & in Northern Mexico there are coyotes & coyote/dog hybrids that are often a light gray color and
and can move *really* fast when they want to.

It was summer, in the woods of eastern Canada. And this "beast" was easily bigger than I.
It was in the middle of the night, but the creature had such white fur that it was very easily visible.

It's hard to give any more detail, as it easily traveled 15 meters uphill then back in to the woods in under 5 seconds.
At least, it felt like 5 seconds. Difficult to judge these things that happened so long ago.

Well it definitely wasn't a coyote then....
(You don't have coyotes in Canada, do you?)
Was it a quadraped? If it was it could have been a wolf.

A wolf was what it always made me think of. Only bigger. With exceptionally white fur. And I can't stress how fast this thing was. Literally moved like a blur. I would have thought I was crazy if my friend hadn't been standing right beside me to witness the beast as well.
But from what I can recall, it was a quadraped. Though to run up a hill that fast, I think some sort of bipedal beast would probably go down on all fours.

And we do have coyotes. And coyote/wolf hybrids are kinda common-ish.

 

[Little Woodsman]

I try not to believe in anything that I do not have evidence for. That being said, I have seen some things which I could not explain.

One was a big white creature that moved fast enough to almost appear as a white blur. My friend and I were walking down a hill surrounded by woods to our cars parked at the bottom. We could see something big and white near the cars when all of a sudden it ran up the hill and past us in to the woods.

Where were you and about how big was the creature? I ask because here in the mid-west/south-west parts of
America & in Northern Mexico there are coyotes & coyote/dog hybrids that are often a light gray color and
and can move *really* fast when they want to.

It was summer, in the woods of eastern Canada. And this "beast" was easily bigger than I.
It was in the middle of the night, but the creature had such white fur that it was very easily visible.

It's hard to give any more detail, as it easily traveled 15 meters uphill then back in to the woods in under 5 seconds.
At least, it felt like 5 seconds. Difficult to judge these things that happened so long ago.

Well it definitely wasn't a coyote then....
(You don't have coyotes in Canada, do you?)
Was it a quadraped? If it was it could have been a wolf.

A wolf was what it always made me think of. Only bigger. With exceptionally white fur. And I can't stress how fast this thing was. Literally moved like a blur. I would have thought I was crazy if my friend hadn't been standing right beside me to witness the beast as well.
But from what I can recall, it was a quadraped. Though to run up a hill that fast, I think some sort of bipedal beast would probably go down on all fours.

And we do have coyotes. And coyote/wolf hybrids are kinda common-ish.

Could it have been one of those? Like I said before, coyotes can run ridiculously fast when they want to,
and wolves aren't exactly slow either.
Though from the sound of it, you're familiar enough with both those kinds of animals to have recognized
one when you saw it.
So yeah, bit of a puzzle.

 

[Phuctifyno]

All that proves is how far you're willing to go to make a point.

Odd, that.

Willing
1. Ready, eager, or prepared to do something.
2. Given or done readily: "willing obedience".

Has nothing to do with free will.

It sure does. Check this out: willing / free will

In order to be willing to do something, the option to not be willing must be present, thus giving the willer a choice, which the willer will make using his free will, or his willie's free will.

Spoiler: Click on this, if you're willing.

BAM

I sincerly hope you never take a philosophy course, or that you're just trolling.
Saying will does not prove free will. Will exists. Here's it's definition:
Will
-Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".

Free will on the other hand, does not exist.

I've got a best friend going for his Ph.D. in it. I sincerely hope I never take it either.

For starters, the "will" in free will, willing, or even just on it's own, is the same word. Adding "free" to it does create a new term with it's own baggage, but does not change the meaning of that one word. Okay, so let's try this.

Free Will
1. free and independent choice, voluntary decision: "you took on the responsibility of your own free will"
2. philosophy, the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces

Free will exists!


Do you have anything more than definitions? Life experience, maybe? An idea of your own, at least? If somebody claims to only believe in facts and logic, as you did, that person cannot rely on books for anything. It's an epistemological fallacy. Only first-hand experience can produce true knowledge. You weren't there yourself when the facts in the book were discovered, recorded, or decided upon, so you're really only taking it on faith that the book is true. If the fact that everybody else you know also believes it is enough to convince you, that's fine, and it is most other people's measuring stick as well. But that's not logic; that's a choice.

 

[BytByte]

Oddest thing that I believe in would be Deja Vu. Usually I have some dream that is me just doing some mundane task that would normally happen in life. After a few weeks or months, I am literally in the same position doing the same thing. Since it is so inconsequential, I don't really dedicate any time to trying to prove it or something, just let it happen.

 

[shadyh8er]

I want to believe that whatever happens after we die is completely up to us. Like we can choose to come back as a ghost, choose to get reincarnated, etc. Becoming nothing when we die is just....weird.

 

[Arakasi]

All that proves is how far you're willing to go to make a point.

Odd, that.

Willing
1. Ready, eager, or prepared to do something.
2. Given or done readily: "willing obedience".

Has nothing to do with free will.

It sure does. Check this out: willing / free will

In order to be willing to do something, the option to not be willing must be present, thus giving the willer a choice, which the willer will make using his free will, or his willie's free will.

Spoiler: Click on this, if you're willing.

BAM

I sincerly hope you never take a philosophy course, or that you're just trolling.
Saying will does not prove free will. Will exists. Here's it's definition:
Will
-Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".

Free will on the other hand, does not exist.

I've got a best friend going for his Ph.D. in it. I sincerely hope I never take it either.

For starters, the "will" in free will, willing, or even just on it's own, is the same word. Adding "free" to it does create a new term with it's own baggage, but does not change the meaning of that one word. Okay, so let's try this.

Free Will
1. free and independent choice, voluntary decision: "you took on the responsibility of your own free will"
2. philosophy, the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces

Free will exists!


Do you have anything more than definitions? Life experience, maybe? An idea of your own, at least? If somebody claims to only believe in facts and logic, as you did, that person cannot rely on books for anything. It's an epistemological fallacy. Only first-hand experience can produce true knowledge. You weren't there yourself when the facts in the book were discovered, recorded, or decided upon, so you're really only taking it on faith that the book is true. If the fact that everybody else you know also believes it is enough to convince you, that's fine, and it is most other people's measuring stick as well. But that's not logic; that's a choice.

Who's to say I didn't come to the revalation on my own first and then read it elsewhere?
Because that's what happened.
If the brain is nothing more than an advanced biological computer, by what means do we have choice? It's all determined by prior events (determinism) or prior events with some element of randomness (indeterminism). There is nothing free about your choices being bound to one destiny or having them be partially random.

 

[Phuctifyno]

Who's to say I didn't come to the revalation on my own first and then read it elsewhere?
Because that's what happened.

You imply it when you offer irrelevent definitions as an argument.

If the brain is nothing more than an advanced biological computer, by what means do we have choice? It's all determined by prior events (determinism) or prior events with some element of randomness (indeterminism). There is nothing free about your choices being bound to one destiny or having them be partially random.

(determinism)
That's like saying the cake is a lie because only eggs, milk, flour, and sugar exist. Those are just ingredients. Of course prior events will shape your choices, as will the limitations of your choices, and mood effecting factors like the weather or chemicals inside you or other subconsious reactions to your environment, or maybe even an evil genius who's controlling you with a computer chip. These variables influence you but they don't force you. Except the evil genius; he's a forceful bastard. Additional point: free will can be overcome by any of these things, but that doesn't negate it's existence.

(indeterminism)
If a choice you made was random, how exactly is free will not involved? If there are an infinite number of possiblities available, it's up to you to grab one out of the ether. I know you're implying a case where the choices are unkown, in which case no specific desire is involved (nor responsibility for consequences of said choice), but it is still free will that is used to choose one blank door from another. That's not what I'm talking about, though, so let me talk more about getting naked [licks lips, breathes heavily].

When I said I'd stripped to prove a point about free will, you said it was a show of how far I was willing to go. That isn't the right interpretation, since I'm not on a railway and it isn't an issue of distance. The point is that was one specific thing I chose to do out of an infinite selection. I could have punched my opponent, or sung a song, or spoke in French or gibberish, or lit something on fire, or stood on my head, or poured milk all over my writhing naked body, or just left, or whatever else. I picked that one thing. What influenced me is that I was trying to win an argument and it was good for a laugh, but I wasn't forced into it, and there were tons of other things I could have done for the same effect.

When you apply hindsight, it's all too easy to say "well, no, you did that one thing therefore that is the only thing you could have done", which is garbage. Obviously it can't be changed now because it's over and time doesn't go backwards, but at the time it could have gone one of many different ways, and the linchpin was the choice that I freely made.

 

[flying_whimsy]

I like to think that Atlantis was real and had super advanced technology, but a mishap with nanomachines wiped them all out and the only reason anything on earth was left was because someone sacrificed themselves while setting off a really big EMP. There's no trace of atlantis because the nanomachines literally ripped it apart at the molecular level.

Yes, I know it's not true, but it would be cool if it was.

Also, there's a surprising amount of deeply philosophical posts in this thread, many regarding free will and determinism. As someone with a BA in the field, it sure has been fun to read.

 

[emeraldrafael]

I always kinda wanted to believe soylent green was people just cause that would be a cool story (and means to solve a population problem) in a more morbid area of my mind.

other than that, I like to believe KH3 and HL2E3 and HL3 are either a) never going to be done or b) already done, game developrs are just setting on them because they know at some point the market will really really get bad and then they'll release them and stand as gods among men.

 

[Blow_Pop]

I want to believe that the blatant sexism that still runs rampant in hiring women to work in the automotive business as mechanics will go away and I'll actually finally get a job doing what I love. Unfortunately as I'm still in the same situation I've been in for almost 10 years now......it's getting harder and harder to believe it.

Also that I will be able to run around at least shirtless like half the population gets to without getting arrested and having to register as a sex offender for it.

And that eye bleach and brain bleach will be invented to target specific memories or sights.