Ieyke said:
SckizoBoy said:
I'm getting interested in these books. But I gotta ask -- are they some sort of prequel to the rest of the series?Zykon TheLich said:
I want to get into Warhammer 40,000. Help me out?
- Thread starter Queen Michael
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Warhammer 40,000 takes place in the 41st millennium AD, essentially*.Queen Michael said:
The Great Crusade and subsequent Horus Heresy takes place 10,000 years before that, in the 31st millennium.
The Horus Heresy is overall essentially the reason things in 40k are the way they are.
How the Imperium came to be what it is, how the Chaos Marines came to exist, how The Emperor came to be in his current state, etc etc etc etc.
In a sense, yes, it's a prequel. The heroes of that time are mostly now figures of legend and myth. A handful still live.
The evils unleashed during that time are still around, and the villains who arose are still some of the biggest pains in the ass that mankind faces in the 41st millennium. The Heresy being 10,000 years prior sounds like a long time, but....progress kinda just doesn't happen in The Imperium. They've never properly bounced back from the Heresy, so they're basically still stuck in the past.
More than a prequel, I'd call it "chapter 1".
If you want to read about 40k in relation to Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, and other aliens, the Horus Heresy is the wrong thing to read. Th Heresy was a galaxy-wide demonically instigated civil war between the forces of the Imperium Of Mankind.
For what I'd call the "prequel" you'd have to go all the way back to the dawn of time itself, and the War In Heaven between the Old Ones, their races, and the C'tan/Necrontyr. But there's not much of anything really to read about that time. Or go back AT LEAST to 8000BC, so still WELL before the Horus Heresy.
*Technically we're up to 014.M42 - the 14th year of the 42nd millennium now, since the canon stays in lockstep with the march of real world time. 1999 was 999.M41 - the final year of the 41st millennium.
The Horus Heresy is a real story.Queen Michael said:
Everything set in the 41st millennium is of little to no consequence and is just there to add depth to the tabletop game.
My suggestions:
The 40k Space Marine game: it nails what it's like to be a part of the Imperium.
Read 1d4chan [http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40k], it's entertaining and gives you a general idea about almost anything related to 40k.
Any of the Horus Heresy audiobooks, stick one in while you're travelling or exercising and you won't care about its quality.
Total nonsense.BanicRhys said:
40k is a setting with tons of big stories going on. The Horus Heresy is tons of stories which all relate to an even larger story.
1D4chan is fairly worthless.
Lexicanum, on the other hand, is the Wikipedia of the 40k universe(warhammer40k.wikia sucks): http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page#.Ux12CPldWSo
Most of which either:Ieyke said:
Are of questionable status within the canon
Contain Draigo
Have Ultramarines as the protagonists
I'd rather read C.S. Goto's Eldar torture porn than that.
I guess, if you're into reading reams of dry text all wrapped up in a terrible colour scheme.Ieyke said:
While it isn't as "accurate", 1d4chan is far more fun to read.
What's wrong with McNeill's portrayal of the Ultramarines? And how does Kyme do it better?Ieyke said:
Pretty much this, although of those 5, I've actually found myself disappointed in Abnett most often.J Tyran said:
I lost it with the Ghosts around Guns of Tanith/Straight Silver because of two words. Trooper Cuu. The artificial Tanith/Verghast strife in Guns was bad enough. But it was then compounded when all the Verghast Ghosts seemed to forget what Caffran and Cuu were like, and how nobody should have been surprised that Cuu went all murdery, while Caffran is always portrayed as one of the nicest, most likeable Ghosts (who had also adopted a couple of Vervunhive 'orphans'). That entire sequence seemed really artificial and forced to me. Then compounded by Bragg's murder, what was the bloody point? And to top it off, once Larkin realises, the only person he tells is Muril, who then gets murdered cos she's stupid and Cuu realises she knows. Whereas going to Corbec or Rawne immediately following the realisation (and the enemy attack) would have made much more sense and got Cuu bushwhacked a book early.
Eisenhorn, while the first two books are excellent, Hereticus is nonsensical and frankly not very good. What I think happened there is the Eisenhorn Abnett had established across the first two books didn't match the Inquisitor game fluff for Eisenhorn (radical, knacker hard case with only a vicious posse of brutal gunmen and mercs). So he had to find a way to tear it all down in one book, and bring his Eisenhorn to the Inquisitor level, which I don't think worked very well at all. A couple more books and a more gradual decline would've been far more satisfying.
Ravenor, again the problem is two words, Carl Thonius. Damn near everything about him is stupid, especially in the second and third books. Why is he an Interrogator when he's suck a simpering dandy? Why did he start using the Chaos tainted glass drug when he knew exactly what it was? Why didn't anyone notice when he got possessed by a fucking deamon? Ravenor's meant to be about as powerful as a human psyker can get and remain sane, but he couldn't pick up one of his team being possessed? Also the third book had Zael 'burn out' Frauka's untouchable aura, which is such bullshit. That's like saying a fire burned away a vacuum.
Eisenhorn, while the first two books are excellent, Hereticus is nonsensical and frankly not very good. What I think happened there is the Eisenhorn Abnett had established across the first two books didn't match the Inquisitor game fluff for Eisenhorn (radical, knacker hard case with only a vicious posse of brutal gunmen and mercs). So he had to find a way to tear it all down in one book, and bring his Eisenhorn to the Inquisitor level, which I don't think worked very well at all. A couple more books and a more gradual decline would've been far more satisfying.
Ravenor, again the problem is two words, Carl Thonius. Damn near everything about him is stupid, especially in the second and third books. Why is he an Interrogator when he's suck a simpering dandy? Why did he start using the Chaos tainted glass drug when he knew exactly what it was? Why didn't anyone notice when he got possessed by a fucking deamon? Ravenor's meant to be about as powerful as a human psyker can get and remain sane, but he couldn't pick up one of his team being possessed? Also the third book had Zael 'burn out' Frauka's untouchable aura, which is such bullshit. That's like saying a fire burned away a vacuum.
Leyke has already answered admirably, so I'll just add something that JTyran touched onQueen Michael said:
40K has been going for 27 years now and it's changed a fair bit over time, different people in charge have tried to target different audiences and the fluff's been written by many different people, so you will find that there is a fair bit of confusing, nonsensical and contradictory information contained within as well as some novels that might read like a 12 year old's Master Chief fan fic and other's that read like Wilfred Owen's worst nightmares (I feel kind of bad writing that, but it gets my point across). You just have to take the bits that you like and ignore the bits you don't as much as possible.
Eisenhorn
I can't stress this enough. The books are awesome and it portrays the internal workings of the Empire the life of its citizens. It humanizes the entire setting and provides ample context which makes subsequent Warhammer 40k lore even richer. The followup trilogy, Ravenor, is also quite on the awesome side and well worth reading. They both portray the Empire as an actual place where people are for the most part living more or less normal lives. It shows what's at stake when a Black Crusade happens, or when a Hive Fleet pops up. It presents the foundations that support the vast Imperial Guard regiments and the superpowered Astartes chapters. And in the end, it shows that even in the grim darkness of the far future, people are still just people.
Then go read the Cain series, because that ************ gives no fucks!
I can't stress this enough. The books are awesome and it portrays the internal workings of the Empire the life of its citizens. It humanizes the entire setting and provides ample context which makes subsequent Warhammer 40k lore even richer. The followup trilogy, Ravenor, is also quite on the awesome side and well worth reading. They both portray the Empire as an actual place where people are for the most part living more or less normal lives. It shows what's at stake when a Black Crusade happens, or when a Hive Fleet pops up. It presents the foundations that support the vast Imperial Guard regiments and the superpowered Astartes chapters. And in the end, it shows that even in the grim darkness of the far future, people are still just people.
Then go read the Cain series, because that ************ gives no fucks!
A lot of people will tell you that 40k is childish and expensive and terribly boring, and that Games Workshop are sending it down the pan with crap business decisions, but I maintain that it's one of the most well-developed fictional universes ever to have existed. It's absolutely ram-packed with stories to be told and issues to be explored, and heaving with intrigue, mystery, action and fun. As a continuity to be a fan of, you really can't do much better. What's more, if you look past the action-man stuff, it's all remarkably literary and really quite clever in some of the ways it portrays human nature. Crucially, it's also a very inclusive universe, with (all told) a pretty fair spread of diverse characters.
It's had some of the best sci-fi writers of our time working on it, and most continue to do so, and their visions have married up brilliantly. The Galaxy has a fantastic sense of scale and complexity, and the stuff that's actually published is, GW admit, a minute fraction of the actual story.
I agree with those that have said that Dan Abnett's fiction is the best stuff, you really couldn't hope for a better introduction to the universe. The 'Gaunt's Ghosts' series and the 'Eisenhorn' and 'Ravenor' trilogies are all excellent reads.
On the gaming side of things, you could do a lot worse. There are more progressive and streamlined tabletop games out there, but if you hook up with a good, friendly gaming community, there's a lot of fun to be had. Personally, I've always preferred having much smaller games, like Kill Team, Inquisitor, Necromunda, and small versions of the 40k core game. Should you ever choose to dip your toes in, you can generally build a small army for less than £100 if you're clever about it, so as far as expense goes it's actually quite manageable. That said, the fun is in concocting stories and characters, and in building, converting and painting an impressive army for me, rather than in just playing games.
Anyway, I welcome you to 40k, and hope you find what you're after.
It's had some of the best sci-fi writers of our time working on it, and most continue to do so, and their visions have married up brilliantly. The Galaxy has a fantastic sense of scale and complexity, and the stuff that's actually published is, GW admit, a minute fraction of the actual story.
I agree with those that have said that Dan Abnett's fiction is the best stuff, you really couldn't hope for a better introduction to the universe. The 'Gaunt's Ghosts' series and the 'Eisenhorn' and 'Ravenor' trilogies are all excellent reads.
On the gaming side of things, you could do a lot worse. There are more progressive and streamlined tabletop games out there, but if you hook up with a good, friendly gaming community, there's a lot of fun to be had. Personally, I've always preferred having much smaller games, like Kill Team, Inquisitor, Necromunda, and small versions of the 40k core game. Should you ever choose to dip your toes in, you can generally build a small army for less than £100 if you're clever about it, so as far as expense goes it's actually quite manageable. That said, the fun is in concocting stories and characters, and in building, converting and painting an impressive army for me, rather than in just playing games.
Anyway, I welcome you to 40k, and hope you find what you're after.
Honestly, I don't know where to begin.Megalodon said:
I feel like it wouldn't be hyperbolic to say "everything".
On a fundamental level, McNeill doesn't understand the Codex Astartes....AT ALL. And the notion of a character as undisciplined and incompetent as Uriel Ventris being the main character of what is called the "Ultramarines series", and ostensibly about the Ultramarines...that's like using South Park's version of Satan as primary example in what is theoretically a serious historical documentary about Satan.
Also, McNeill can't even maintain consistency in his own stupid plot. Ventris was, deservingly, sentenced to death by Marneus Calgar. He was, in no uncertain terms, told to go into the Eye Of Terror and battle the enemies of mankind until he died. What did McNeill do then? He gave Ventris "a note from his mommy" saying that the Grey Knights decided he didn't seem evil, so he was allowed back into the Chapter willy nilly as if not being demonically possessed somehow had ANYTHING to do with him hand-waving away the fact that he was disregarding his well deserved execution orders.
And even MORE mind-bogglingly, they let him be Captain again, replacing the acting Captain, Veteran Sergeant Learchus - AKA the ONLY one of the main characters who knows how to be an actual Ultramarine.
Nick Kyme, on the other hand, actually writes Ultramarines as Ultramarines, and he understands the Codex Astartes.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden managed a better portrayal of Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines in ONE PAGE of "The First Heretic" than McNeill managed to do across 6+ books of the so-called "Ultramarines series".
Dan Abnett's "Know No Fear" is a masterpiece of an Ultramarines story compared to anything McNeill scribbled together.
Luckily, McNeill's Ultramarines series isn't canon, while Kyme's books are. So there's that at least.
I would just read the Horus Heresy series. It starts with Horus Rising and then progresses linearly to False Gods and then to Galaxy in Flames (and then arguably Flight of the Eisenstein), and then from there it's just read whatever. I don't even play Warhammer 40k anymore and I still read the new ones as they are released.
There's a few other good books as well, but that series alone is more than enough.
First, you'll want to buy the rulebook. Buy the hardcover one if you're new to the series, as it gives a brief overview of all of the armies.
Pick an army that looks interesting, but do not invest in its codex (army specific rule book) or any models yet. In my experience most GW stores have a few basic army sets for every race on hand to let you experiment with. Ask to play a few games with some of the employees, half their job is teaching people to play (you might also want to invest in the classes they host which cover both playing and the hobby, like painting and building techniques). That's the fastest way to learn the rules of the game itself, and more significantly they'll go over all the race-specific rules with you, and you'll get a feel for how different units and armies work.
After you've made a decision, buy the army's codex. From there you can read about more options and ways to go about building up your army as well as hobby tips.
An army consists of units of the following type:
Compulsory:
Troops: represent the basic rank and file soldiers. Your army MUST include at least two troop units, and in conventional gameplay may include no more than 6 troop units. Troop units may also include a transport vehicle.
HQ: A powerful "hero" character that represents you personally. Your army MUST include at least one HQ, and in conventional gameplay may include no more than 2.
Optional:
Elite: Specialized units. They may have bigger guns, unique abilities, or are just improved versions of troops. In conventional gameplay you may have no more than 3 elite units.
Heavy support: Heavy units like tanks, walkers, and super-heavy infantry. In conventional gameplay, your army may include no more than 3 heavy support options.
Fast Attack: Cavalry. Warbikes, light vehicles, and some fast infantry. In conventional gameplay you may have no more than 3 fast attack units.
Generally, you'll want to build your army up like this:
1.) Two infantry units and an HQ (leader, a single powerful unit, basically a hero that represents you personally) option. You might want to save some money and buy one of the basic starter sets that will include two infantries and an HQ. Don't go for the entire "army in a box" though, it takes away a lot of the individual feel of building up your army.
2.) Play a few games with your basic army. Once you've got a handle on that, consider how you might upgrade it. Maybe you'd like a more numbers-heavy army, so think about some more infantry units. Or you want bigger guns or a nice tank. Start experimenting.
3.) Invest in increasingly specialized units and configurations as you gain experience. Don't just buy the biggest guns until you know how to use the normal ones. Think of it like an RTS tech tree, where unlocking heavier and better units requires having simpler ones first.
I have to go to class, so I will continue expanding on this when I return.
There's a few other good books as well, but that series alone is more than enough.
First, you'll want to buy the rulebook. Buy the hardcover one if you're new to the series, as it gives a brief overview of all of the armies.
Pick an army that looks interesting, but do not invest in its codex (army specific rule book) or any models yet. In my experience most GW stores have a few basic army sets for every race on hand to let you experiment with. Ask to play a few games with some of the employees, half their job is teaching people to play (you might also want to invest in the classes they host which cover both playing and the hobby, like painting and building techniques). That's the fastest way to learn the rules of the game itself, and more significantly they'll go over all the race-specific rules with you, and you'll get a feel for how different units and armies work.
After you've made a decision, buy the army's codex. From there you can read about more options and ways to go about building up your army as well as hobby tips.
An army consists of units of the following type:
Compulsory:
Troops: represent the basic rank and file soldiers. Your army MUST include at least two troop units, and in conventional gameplay may include no more than 6 troop units. Troop units may also include a transport vehicle.
HQ: A powerful "hero" character that represents you personally. Your army MUST include at least one HQ, and in conventional gameplay may include no more than 2.
Optional:
Elite: Specialized units. They may have bigger guns, unique abilities, or are just improved versions of troops. In conventional gameplay you may have no more than 3 elite units.
Heavy support: Heavy units like tanks, walkers, and super-heavy infantry. In conventional gameplay, your army may include no more than 3 heavy support options.
Fast Attack: Cavalry. Warbikes, light vehicles, and some fast infantry. In conventional gameplay you may have no more than 3 fast attack units.
Generally, you'll want to build your army up like this:
1.) Two infantry units and an HQ (leader, a single powerful unit, basically a hero that represents you personally) option. You might want to save some money and buy one of the basic starter sets that will include two infantries and an HQ. Don't go for the entire "army in a box" though, it takes away a lot of the individual feel of building up your army.
2.) Play a few games with your basic army. Once you've got a handle on that, consider how you might upgrade it. Maybe you'd like a more numbers-heavy army, so think about some more infantry units. Or you want bigger guns or a nice tank. Start experimenting.
3.) Invest in increasingly specialized units and configurations as you gain experience. Don't just buy the biggest guns until you know how to use the normal ones. Think of it like an RTS tech tree, where unlocking heavier and better units requires having simpler ones first.
I have to go to class, so I will continue expanding on this when I return.
It is a tabletop gaming term.Queen Michael said:
Fluff is world-building and other non-mechanical text.
It stands as opposed to "crunch" which are game mechanics.
Or, to give a video game example, in Mass Effect, the Codex is "fluff" while the GUI and equipment menus are "crunch".
OT: I clicked on the thread to say "oh gods, don't get started on this madness, the miniatures are insanely overpriced" - but you are only interested in the novels, so... yeah, probably the smart move.
I'm not personally into the novels, but I've heard good things.
OK, disagreement time.
Also, deservingly? Are you serious? He was essentially put on trial for saving Tarsis Ultra from the Tyranids. He and Pasanius went to where they could do the most good to win the war. By that point having two more Marines in the trenches would have made no impact on the course of the war, Learchus being fully able to command the company in that situation. Whereas bring the Deathwatch team back to strength allowed the mission to succeed, and Tarsis Ultra to be saved. If Bannon had been alive and the Salamander uninjured, then Ventris and Pasanius would have stayed with their company. But that went against the teachings of the codex, and so shit hit the fan when they got home.
Why is breaking with the tenets of the codex in order to save an Imperial World from the Tyranids deserving of execution?
And here's the thing, Ventris didn't defend himself at the trial, and the whole "breaking with the codex is the only way Learchus survived to report me" is a pretty good defence. He'd been the protege on the unorthodox Ideaus, and had taken his mentor's approach that the codex isn't the be all and end all to heart, but hadn't fully realised that is does matter. However he is made to realise by Agemman that the importance of the codex is really in the 'how to be a good Space Marine' bit, it's the rules that help separate true, loyal marines from filthy traitors. So he accepts his punishment. What you seem to be calling 'undisciplined', is more like character development.
Here's the thing, if the point of the Ultramarines is to be generic Marines, Fall of Damnos delivers that. But McNeill's books did a better job of showing the Ultramarines as paladins, the definition of what it means to be Adeptus Astartes, which I think is closer to what their image is meant to be.
So what is the codex according to you? Different authors seem to interpret it as wildly different things, from a blueprint playbook that must be followed to the letter at all times (which is stupid), to a massive future combination of On War and The Art Of War, with attendums on 'how to be a good Space Marine'. McNeill seems to view it as the latter.Ieyke said:
How is Ventris incompetent? If anything he's too competent, succeeding in his Death Oath and all that. The 'undisciplined' I'll address a little further down.
No, he wasn't, he was sent on a Death Oath, to destroy the Daemonculaba that Tigurius had seen in a vision.
Also, deservingly? Are you serious? He was essentially put on trial for saving Tarsis Ultra from the Tyranids. He and Pasanius went to where they could do the most good to win the war. By that point having two more Marines in the trenches would have made no impact on the course of the war, Learchus being fully able to command the company in that situation. Whereas bring the Deathwatch team back to strength allowed the mission to succeed, and Tarsis Ultra to be saved. If Bannon had been alive and the Salamander uninjured, then Ventris and Pasanius would have stayed with their company. But that went against the teachings of the codex, and so shit hit the fan when they got home.
Why is breaking with the tenets of the codex in order to save an Imperial World from the Tyranids deserving of execution?
And here's the thing, Ventris didn't defend himself at the trial, and the whole "breaking with the codex is the only way Learchus survived to report me" is a pretty good defence. He'd been the protege on the unorthodox Ideaus, and had taken his mentor's approach that the codex isn't the be all and end all to heart, but hadn't fully realised that is does matter. However he is made to realise by Agemman that the importance of the codex is really in the 'how to be a good Space Marine' bit, it's the rules that help separate true, loyal marines from filthy traitors. So he accepts his punishment. What you seem to be calling 'undisciplined', is more like character development.
No, he was told to fulfil his Death Oath, which was believed to be suicide (not unreasonably).
I find myself doubting that you read Dead Sky Black Sun and The Killing Ground in any detail. He was not under execution orders, he returned victorious form his Death Oath, which left the only obstacle to his rejoining the Chapter the question of whether or not he was corrupted. Getting the seal of approval from a Grey Knight Captain/Grand Master (can't remember his rank) was deemed sufficient to not have him executed out of hand, and then the Grey Knight's findings were confirmed by the Ultramarines in-house corruption testing .
Of course they 'let' him be Captain again, they didn't demote him. If there hadn't been the provision for him to return they would have promoted Learchus after the trial. Also, being an 'actual' Ultramarine means being snotty that unorthodox thinking won a war? Learchus did massively improve across the series, but in the Tarsis Ultra aftermath, he was the very worst portrayal of the Ultramarines, unable to see past their sacred book and unwilling to acknowledge that it doesn't always have the answers. Learning this lesson was meant to be one of the morals of the battle against Hive Fleet Behemoth.
Now I've only read Fall of Damnos when it comes to Kyme and Ultramarines. Quite frankly, I didn't think the book was that strong, not terrible, but far from the best BL I've read. It was a rather plodding affair, following the exact events layed out in the Damnos fluff from the 5th ed. SM codex (this is a problem with others in the Space Marine Battles series too). As far as the marines themselves, I mostly remember Sicarius being arrogant and gung ho, while being reigned in by the Dreadnought. Then one sergeant was resenting the Dreadnought being their to keep a restraining hand on his captain, while another was rather more chill about the whole thing and trained some local militia on the slide. There was no real character to the Ulramarines as a whole, something Kyme delivered on really well with his Salamanders stores (at least the first few, haven't read the latter ones).
Here's the thing, if the point of the Ultramarines is to be generic Marines, Fall of Damnos delivers that. But McNeill's books did a better job of showing the Ultramarines as paladins, the definition of what it means to be Adeptus Astartes, which I think is closer to what their image is meant to be.
Haven't read, can't comment
Likewise, haven't read, although what works in a portrayal of a heresy era Legion isn't necessarily what works with an M41 Chapter.
And you base that on? While the most recent SM codex (the closest the company tends to get to 'official canon') has Cassius commanding at Tarsis Ultra,major events from McNeill's books are included, like M'kar's invasion of Ultramar.
I haven't read any of the books, so I can't recommend.
As for not wanting to play the tabletop game, you are correct sir! I have a Tyranid army that hasn't seen the light of day in 5+ years and probably never will again. I can't recommend getting into tabletop, due to the ENORMOUS expense of doing so, but if you ever get the urge, don't play 40k. Play Warmachine/Hordes. Privateer has better rules, better prices, smaller entry cost......short version, better in every way except the background, which I find somewhat uninspired.
As for video games, the Dawn of War series is top-notch. There's DoW 1 plus half a dozen expansions, then DoW 2 plus a couple expansions. I prefer the tight squad-based tactics of DoW 2 to the throw-masses-of-troops-at-the-enemy-until-it-dies action of DoW 1. Stay away from Space Marine unless hours of mindless automatic fire against the same enemies again and again is your idea of a good game.
As for not wanting to play the tabletop game, you are correct sir! I have a Tyranid army that hasn't seen the light of day in 5+ years and probably never will again. I can't recommend getting into tabletop, due to the ENORMOUS expense of doing so, but if you ever get the urge, don't play 40k. Play Warmachine/Hordes. Privateer has better rules, better prices, smaller entry cost......short version, better in every way except the background, which I find somewhat uninspired.
As for video games, the Dawn of War series is top-notch. There's DoW 1 plus half a dozen expansions, then DoW 2 plus a couple expansions. I prefer the tight squad-based tactics of DoW 2 to the throw-masses-of-troops-at-the-enemy-until-it-dies action of DoW 1. Stay away from Space Marine unless hours of mindless automatic fire against the same enemies again and again is your idea of a good game.
Eh... this might be something other fans of the franchise will scoff at, but I reccommend you start with the Horus Heresy series. It's a good gateway to the rest of univesre as it's set during the formative years of the grimdark "there is only war" universe that we know as 40k. You get some background on the Space Marines and the forces of Chaos, two of the largest and most popular factions (Space Marines being the poster boys of the franchise, and Chaos being their primary advisary).
However, it really depends on your reading standards. If you don't mind a bit of cheesy fluff fiction it's a good time waster, some of the books can be quite good and others... not so much.
Other series deal with other factions, but some factions aren't really explored in the novels, like the Orks (who are often only meat fodder for large conflicts) and the Tau (just aren't that many books with a huge focus on them).
In fact the books tend to always focus around the imperium factions (like Space Marines, Imperial guard and Inquisition) and their conflicts with Chaos (primarily) and Eldar/Dark Eldar (sometimes, rarely the focus). Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau are relegated to background noise in the vast majority of the fiction, since their species are a little harder to write about and end up being meat fodder (Orks and Nids especially).
If you find yourself liking a specific faction check out the Lexicanum http://www.lexicanum.com/ and just browse. You can lose hours reading up on the lore of each race and the histroy of the universe (think of it like TvTropes, but with a vague over arching narrative taking shape as you peruse). This might be a good way to find other content you might like, as anyhting considered canon is mentioned and often sourced. This includes some absolute turds though, so be careful.
If you don't mind PC strategy games, the Dawn of War series is worth a look. Made by Relic, both DoW 1 (and its expansions) and DoW 2 (and its expansions) offer one of the most authentic 40k experiences in gaming, with many races represented (between the 2 series all Races are represented in one form or other) and brought to life with great voice acting. Both games (1 and 2) are remarkably different from each other, with DoW 1 being a more traditional RTS with resource management, base building and army building, and DoW 2 being a more tactical combat focused RTS with streamlind processes to get you into the action fast and making it a very nuanced and enthralling core feature. Unfortunately, the most engaging part of DoW 2 was the multiplayer and it has long since died down.
Space Marine is another decent game. It's a God of War cum Gears of War style game that has a really novel mechanic that keeps you in combat (you heal when you kill enemies with certain finishers). It's also made by Relic and they just have a knack for breathing life into 40k based games. However it's a little too authentically Space Marine (The characters are built like brick shithouses with personalities to match).
You can get both games at budget prices (the entire DoW series is sold on steam, but you'd want a decent computer to be able to get the most out of DoW 2) and Space Marine is availabe on most of the last gen consoles (PS3, 360) and PC.
That's about all I can think of as a person who never got into miniatures and table top games. Others will recommend better books then the Horus Heresy series, but for video games your going to be limited. There are more games from the early 90's but they aren't as polished and... authentic, as Relics productions.
However, it really depends on your reading standards. If you don't mind a bit of cheesy fluff fiction it's a good time waster, some of the books can be quite good and others... not so much.
Other series deal with other factions, but some factions aren't really explored in the novels, like the Orks (who are often only meat fodder for large conflicts) and the Tau (just aren't that many books with a huge focus on them).
In fact the books tend to always focus around the imperium factions (like Space Marines, Imperial guard and Inquisition) and their conflicts with Chaos (primarily) and Eldar/Dark Eldar (sometimes, rarely the focus). Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau are relegated to background noise in the vast majority of the fiction, since their species are a little harder to write about and end up being meat fodder (Orks and Nids especially).
If you find yourself liking a specific faction check out the Lexicanum http://www.lexicanum.com/ and just browse. You can lose hours reading up on the lore of each race and the histroy of the universe (think of it like TvTropes, but with a vague over arching narrative taking shape as you peruse). This might be a good way to find other content you might like, as anyhting considered canon is mentioned and often sourced. This includes some absolute turds though, so be careful.
If you don't mind PC strategy games, the Dawn of War series is worth a look. Made by Relic, both DoW 1 (and its expansions) and DoW 2 (and its expansions) offer one of the most authentic 40k experiences in gaming, with many races represented (between the 2 series all Races are represented in one form or other) and brought to life with great voice acting. Both games (1 and 2) are remarkably different from each other, with DoW 1 being a more traditional RTS with resource management, base building and army building, and DoW 2 being a more tactical combat focused RTS with streamlind processes to get you into the action fast and making it a very nuanced and enthralling core feature. Unfortunately, the most engaging part of DoW 2 was the multiplayer and it has long since died down.
Space Marine is another decent game. It's a God of War cum Gears of War style game that has a really novel mechanic that keeps you in combat (you heal when you kill enemies with certain finishers). It's also made by Relic and they just have a knack for breathing life into 40k based games. However it's a little too authentically Space Marine (The characters are built like brick shithouses with personalities to match).
You can get both games at budget prices (the entire DoW series is sold on steam, but you'd want a decent computer to be able to get the most out of DoW 2) and Space Marine is availabe on most of the last gen consoles (PS3, 360) and PC.
That's about all I can think of as a person who never got into miniatures and table top games. Others will recommend better books then the Horus Heresy series, but for video games your going to be limited. There are more games from the early 90's but they aren't as polished and... authentic, as Relics productions.
Well and clearly outlined as the correct version, over and over and over again, in pretty much every source that describes the Codex Astartes.Megalodon said:
It is also this.
No he doesn't. He sees it as as simplistic "Baby's First Tactics" book. And he's the ONLY author who has shown he doesn't understand the Codex.
LOL! No. He's incapable of prosecuting warfare in the manner that every Ultramarine for 10,000 years has managed. He only managed success by being a reckless jackass, abandoning his men in battle, and desecrating ancient sacred war machines.
There's no such thing as succeeding at dying in battle without dying.
His death oath was AN OATH TO DIE. Tigurius merely told him where his death might be most useful to the Imperium.
God yes, I'm serious. He was put on trial for desertion of his command(taking his second-in-command with him, no less), desecrating sacred wargear, misusing wargear, and getting over 72% of his Company slaughtered.
Learchus only served as a suitable replacement for Ventris because Ventris was a shitty Captain in the first place.
Because he's a freaking IDIOT. He had a whole Company of Ultramarines. He could've EASILY spared even 5 men to replace a couple Deathwatch Marines, you know, rather than abandoning his command, which is a cardinal sin among military sins, and even moreso for a command in the Ultramarines.
Because it vandalized a nearly priceless and irreplaceable warmachine, got 72+% of his men slaughtered, was completely unnecessary, AND because the very act of disobeying the Codex Astartes is an executable act.
Because there WAS no defense.
Things they learn on like DAY ONE as a Scout. "Character development" on a level appropriate for...a Scout. LITERALLY stuff any citizen of Ultramar should've known as a child long before he was even inducted as a Scout into the Ultramarines.
A DEATH OATH IS AN OATH TO DIE.
No, they didn't demote him. THEY KICKED HIM OUT OF THE CHAPTER AND STRIPPED HIM OF ALL HIS HONORS AND ICONOGRAPHY.
Ventris might exist, maybe. But he's not a Captain or even worth mentioning. Idaeus is the 4th Captain in the canon, and he and Cassius are the ones who claimed victory at Tarsis Ultra WITHOUT any note of the Company being catastrophically crippled - the type of thing that is routinely CLEARLY noted in the fluff.
Which is stupid, as it makes the Astartes entirely predictable, as long as their enemy has also read the book. Even Guilliman himself didn't cleave to this kind of rigid doctrine absolutely, hence events like his raid on the Alpha Legion HQ that killed Alpharius.Ieyke said:
It's more like he acknowleges that the Codex isn't be be all and end all. Just like the Ultramarines themselves did in the aftermath of Behemoth. There are circumstances that the codex doesn't cover, and trying to force it into such situations is a recipe for failure. This is also Learchus's arc across the series, his command and work with the scouts on Pavonis teaching him to be a bit more fluid with his thinking
And this is stupid. It's the worst excess of the 'honour before reason' thing the Marine's have going on (which is part of their fluff, but taken to ridiculous extremes here, which you seem to think is good). So it would have been 'better' to not slim down the Thunderhawk, thereby losing the war (as the penultimate Hive Ship isn't killed)? If they lose the war, the precious sacred war machines are destroyed anyway. And how were the losses sustained Ventris's fault, as opposed to simply the result of fighting a hard war? What mistakes did he make that cost his me their lives? The Mortifactors weren't under his command, and they suffered a similar level of attrition. Tarsis Ultra was a costly war, but not because Ventris was a bad Captain
Again, how? By the point that the final battle starts, 4th company is essentially just trying to buy time for the Deathwatch raid to work, the time for clever plans and strategy has passed, the ground commander essentially has to do a Kirrahe 'hold the line' deal, fight hard, and hope the crazy plan works.
True, but on the other hand, taking the best Marines available on the Deathwatch mission fits with how the Deathwatch operate. It would have made more sense if Pasanius had been Company Champion instead of 1st sergeant (as he acts more like the former in the books anyway). But Ventris, a Deathwatch veteran, replacing Bannon in command of the team makes sense, it offers the best chance at success and victory, far more so than Brother X of 4th Company.
If a machine is so irreplaceable that its loss can't be risked, then it has no place being committed to a war zone. Plus, while many are old and venerable, Thunderhawks are no more priceless and irreplacable than the majority of the Marine's wargear. If anything, the need to strip down the Thunderhawk is an indictment of the codex. That sort of commando raid is precisely the sort of operation the Marine Chapters are built for (unlike their Legion predecessors), and yet they don't have the craft to pull it off without MacGuyvering a gunship not intended for that role.
Again, all of Ventris's breaks with the codex in that book directly led to Imperial successes, so where were they completely unnecessary?
So Cassius should have been executed when he suggested forming the Tyrannic War Veterans? Or Calgar should have been executed for allowing their formation?
Don't have time now, will edit in response here later.
And yet, even after damn near the entire Chapter command thinks they've died in the Eye, it's still Sergeant Learchus. Not Captain. Learchus even says that he'll rebuild the company for Ventris when he returns. Rejoining the Chapter was built into the Oath from the outset. You may think its stupid, and I'm unlikely to convince you otherwise, but it was internally consistent.
My bad, didn't twig they'd stuck Ideaus back in the Captian list this time around, although the Tarsis Ultra fluff only mentions Cassius, not Ideaus. Also, just as a side note, the fluff is general is pretty bad for glossing over heavy Marine casualties (especially for the Imperial Fists).
I could continue eviscerating your arguments, but frankly I've burned out my patience crushing countless variations of this discussion over the last decade. This is a tiresome, purely ceremonial miming of a debate for me, and frankly I'm currently in the midst of an overall 40k burnout after 14 years.Megalodon said:
If you care to continue, my veteran Ultramarines-playing colleagues over in the Bolter & Chainsword's Ultramarines subforum will likely be willing to finish this up for me.
Ask for Legatus, Seahawk, Captain Idaho, or just the veteran Ultramarines players. Tell 'em TEC sent you.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/11-ultramarines/
For overall Imperium stuff go with Cain or Last Chancers, depending on how you want to see things.
For history, look up Horus Heresy
Too see the kind of messed up junk Inquisitors run into, the Eisenorn/Ravenor series.
For mindless violence, any of dozens of single shot books from "15 hours" to "Blood Tithe"
For history, look up Horus Heresy
Too see the kind of messed up junk Inquisitors run into, the Eisenorn/Ravenor series.
For mindless violence, any of dozens of single shot books from "15 hours" to "Blood Tithe"