I want to play a game about a female crimelord or career criminal.
- Thread starter Pogilrup
- Start date
People have already made mention of Saints Row 2, and a few other games that allow you to do something similar if you so choose. At the end of the day your not going to see much in the way of "realistic" games with a female criminal lead where you actually go out and do stuff because it's extremely rare. Most criminal organizations and syndicates are extremely sexist, The Mob, The Yakuza, etc... and sometimes a point is made out of this in games and movies involving them. While there have been women achieving high ranks in such organizations it's largely been more of a political and social thing, rather than something they seized for themselves through the kinds of violence and action we're talking about and which would make for a fun game. Your typical "Mafia Princess" generally gets things done by being more of a Mari Hati type who nobody sees coming or takes seriously. Female "bangers" have existed, but as a general rule they tend to be very subservient to men, not in anything like top tier positions. In some respects having a female executioner in a Mexican crime cartel (which someone references) can be seen as an insult to the victim in an environment where Machismo is very much alive.
See, a big part of it is that men and women are not created equal, when it comes to violence and physical abilities men are way ahead. Unlike fantasy skill can only get you so far, and again such advantages rely on the assumption that the guys being fought don't have skills themselves. In reality "hard boys" take their fighting very seriously, work out constantly, and practice fighting. Your not generally going to see real world scenarios where some dude who knows kung-fu whips up on a bunch of thugs because none of the thugs actually know how to fight, today anyone who intentionally sets out to make a lifestyle out of fighting learns how to do it. Gyms and such can be big time hang outs for this kind of dude for that reason.
That isn't to say that a game like this couldn't be made, but it should be noted your going to be going firmly into fantasy territory to begin with, much like Saint's Row, which gets away with it by simply being so ridiculous and over the top with what the character can do that gender just doesn't matter anymore. Saint's Row also uses the unlikely premise of having a central gang which is somehow devoid of all of the racial, cultural, and historical elements that tend to hold such organizations together. When you've got whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc.. all working together on the street, even with the original premise of a "militant neighborhood watch organization" that started it all and the only ethnic gangs are bad guys who themselves downplay the race and cultural angles for the most part... your so far outside of real life crime drama and any pretensions of realism it doesn't matter anymore. Sort of like how you had Lucy Liu's character uniting the Tokyo underworld, which she did by being able to (easily) kill anyone who disputed her on ethnic or gender based grounds... it's a fun idea, but not even remotely realistic, as realism is not what the movie was going for, especially at that point... it was all about spectacle.
For the record "Breaking Bad" with a female protagonist already exists it's called "Weeds", and the central premise is very similar. A generally good person goes into the drug trade (in this case Weed instead of Meth) and it snowballs out of control leading to her becoming a "player" in the drug underworld and changing as a result. The style is very different however as fitting a female protagonist, half the point of the show being that this generally doesn't happen, and finding occasionally absurd ways to deal with the associated problems. Basically she doesn't go out and personally start brutalizing people or doing cool stuff that might make a good subject for a video game.
That said I'd be all for another game that went back to the old Saint's Row 2 status quo, being campy and ridiculous without reaching the later levels of absurdity, and still being focused on crime, as opposed to say fighting international syndicates made up of mad scientists and Luchadores, or fighting aliens in a VR sim. That came close and made the female protagonist work within context.
Perhaps more accurately a good idea might be to have the next sandbox "Super Hero" game involve a female lead, and more differences in terms of your morality choices. In something like "infamous" the inclusion of super powers explains why a woman could say subvert the underworld to her control if she went bad. The same could be said of "Prototype" if they used that basic power set and then didn't make the genetic terrors deriving from it being 100% the focus of the entire plot. I never much liked the idea of Prototype plot wise, but the powers in that game were a lot of fun to play with.
Now, some would find it sexist to say that you need to divorce from reality to have a strong, empowered, woman doing this stuff in this context, but that's largely because of how the world is. See, I'm sure out there have been some nasty female criminals, I mean heck Bonnie and Clyde are famous. The thing is though that they stick out as being exceptional because they were women, it's not normal. Tossing another one out there doesn't work because if this other character existed those other ones wouldn't have stood out, what's more if it was normal the current status quos within gangs and such wouldn't exist. Plus as I pointed out, there are usually exceptional circumstances. Sort of like using Annie Bonney as a justification for female pirates, when really she became famous because she was on the arm of a dude who was the actual captain doing the piracy stuff and holding everything together. No crew ever followed her. She's famous now for being a woman, but technically she's more an accessory to the legend of Calico Jack. When it comes to Bonnie and Clyde, Clyde was the guy who did most of the infamous stuff, like winning a shootout with the police when cornered in a motel because they all had pistols and he had a BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) which was an unprecedented amount of firepower for the day and caught them entirely by surprise.
See, a big part of it is that men and women are not created equal, when it comes to violence and physical abilities men are way ahead. Unlike fantasy skill can only get you so far, and again such advantages rely on the assumption that the guys being fought don't have skills themselves. In reality "hard boys" take their fighting very seriously, work out constantly, and practice fighting. Your not generally going to see real world scenarios where some dude who knows kung-fu whips up on a bunch of thugs because none of the thugs actually know how to fight, today anyone who intentionally sets out to make a lifestyle out of fighting learns how to do it. Gyms and such can be big time hang outs for this kind of dude for that reason.
That isn't to say that a game like this couldn't be made, but it should be noted your going to be going firmly into fantasy territory to begin with, much like Saint's Row, which gets away with it by simply being so ridiculous and over the top with what the character can do that gender just doesn't matter anymore. Saint's Row also uses the unlikely premise of having a central gang which is somehow devoid of all of the racial, cultural, and historical elements that tend to hold such organizations together. When you've got whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc.. all working together on the street, even with the original premise of a "militant neighborhood watch organization" that started it all and the only ethnic gangs are bad guys who themselves downplay the race and cultural angles for the most part... your so far outside of real life crime drama and any pretensions of realism it doesn't matter anymore. Sort of like how you had Lucy Liu's character uniting the Tokyo underworld, which she did by being able to (easily) kill anyone who disputed her on ethnic or gender based grounds... it's a fun idea, but not even remotely realistic, as realism is not what the movie was going for, especially at that point... it was all about spectacle.
For the record "Breaking Bad" with a female protagonist already exists it's called "Weeds", and the central premise is very similar. A generally good person goes into the drug trade (in this case Weed instead of Meth) and it snowballs out of control leading to her becoming a "player" in the drug underworld and changing as a result. The style is very different however as fitting a female protagonist, half the point of the show being that this generally doesn't happen, and finding occasionally absurd ways to deal with the associated problems. Basically she doesn't go out and personally start brutalizing people or doing cool stuff that might make a good subject for a video game.
That said I'd be all for another game that went back to the old Saint's Row 2 status quo, being campy and ridiculous without reaching the later levels of absurdity, and still being focused on crime, as opposed to say fighting international syndicates made up of mad scientists and Luchadores, or fighting aliens in a VR sim. That came close and made the female protagonist work within context.
Perhaps more accurately a good idea might be to have the next sandbox "Super Hero" game involve a female lead, and more differences in terms of your morality choices. In something like "infamous" the inclusion of super powers explains why a woman could say subvert the underworld to her control if she went bad. The same could be said of "Prototype" if they used that basic power set and then didn't make the genetic terrors deriving from it being 100% the focus of the entire plot. I never much liked the idea of Prototype plot wise, but the powers in that game were a lot of fun to play with.
Now, some would find it sexist to say that you need to divorce from reality to have a strong, empowered, woman doing this stuff in this context, but that's largely because of how the world is. See, I'm sure out there have been some nasty female criminals, I mean heck Bonnie and Clyde are famous. The thing is though that they stick out as being exceptional because they were women, it's not normal. Tossing another one out there doesn't work because if this other character existed those other ones wouldn't have stood out, what's more if it was normal the current status quos within gangs and such wouldn't exist. Plus as I pointed out, there are usually exceptional circumstances. Sort of like using Annie Bonney as a justification for female pirates, when really she became famous because she was on the arm of a dude who was the actual captain doing the piracy stuff and holding everything together. No crew ever followed her. She's famous now for being a woman, but technically she's more an accessory to the legend of Calico Jack. When it comes to Bonnie and Clyde, Clyde was the guy who did most of the infamous stuff, like winning a shootout with the police when cornered in a motel because they all had pistols and he had a BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) which was an unprecedented amount of firepower for the day and caught them entirely by surprise.
None of the female characters of GTA V had reasons or motives to get into organized crime. Molly is just helping Devin Weston screw over people legally and has no goals of her own, Tanisha broke up with Franklin because she wants to get out of the hood and doesn't want to be associated with a criminal. Amanda already has large amounts of money through Micheal's bank robberies and her daughter Tracy just wants to be a TV-star. Paige is only in it for the money, and Taliana is just a mix of money and she owes the MC for saving her life. Even if one of these characters were part of a gang like the Ballas, or Grove Street, it would be all for nothing. Most of the game is spent trying to convince the player that a private military contractor like Not-Blackwater is somehow way more evil than street gangs. The street gangs of Today aren't as powerful as they were back in San Andreas, most likely because there's no corrupt cop empowering them with weapons, money and drugs.zen5887 said:
The reason I'm interest in a game with this kind of story is because of all the talk about patriarchy and such by certain people over the recent years.
Is there even a game with a shoddy plot about a woman who hits the glass ceiling multiple times in her career and after her latest missed opportunity she decides to go postal on her boss and management?
Is there even a game with a shoddy plot about a woman who hits the glass ceiling multiple times in her career and after her latest missed opportunity she decides to go postal on her boss and management?
A thief class in Dragon Age Origins would let you do a little of it.Pogilrup said:
The suggestion above from another poster regarding the thief guild line in Skyrim is a good one too.
Actually, I think the thief guild quest line was one of the better guild quests in the game.
That's all that comes to mind at the moment.
You could play Evil Genius. There are three supervillians to choose from, one of which is female. Unfortunately they only differ by a few stats rather than having unique stories. But you can kidnap and torture people, build a doomsday device, create hideous monsters and (gasp) play as a woman.Pogilrup said:
EDIT
I totally forgot about the Starcraft 2 expansion Heart of the Swarm. It actually has a real story with a female protagonist building up a massive army of monstrous creatures called Zerg and invading human worlds. It is also a revenge story, against Arcturus Mengsk, who you were fighting for in the original Starcraft until he abandoned you to the Zerg.
If that's the case, I'd have to add another point to that Saint's Row 2 recommendation.Pogilrup said:
The Boss, regardless of voice chosen, (all six have the same lines in cutscenes) comes off as a psychotic, vengeful monster that lives mainly to exact violent retribution on things. This is most apparent in the last DLC mission where, I think, your goal is to slaughter every single person one man might have cared about (his business partners, his preferred prostitutes, his dentist, some mimes that might have worked for him once, etc.) solely because said man escaped the city before he too could be killed. (Granted, I'm not sure it was entirely undeserved in this case)
I started to suspect (s)he only made friends at all so (s)he could take over the city, thus having territory to be guns-blazing angry about if someone tried to take it back (three guesses what you have to do when other gangs try just that.) and people to avenge when those 'friends' inevitably got hurt, even if The Boss started the conflict. (Say, by mixing radioactive waste into tattoo ink s(he) knew another ganglord would use because (s)he felt slighted. Tricking said ganglord into crushing his own girlfriend to death in the trunk of her own car was maybe a little more justified, but still insane.) (S)he seems to have simmered down considerably by the third game, however.
I started to suspect (s)he only made friends at all so (s)he could take over the city, thus having territory to be guns-blazing angry about if someone tried to take it back (three guesses what you have to do when other gangs try just that.) and people to avenge when those 'friends' inevitably got hurt, even if The Boss started the conflict. (Say, by mixing radioactive waste into tattoo ink s(he) knew another ganglord would use because (s)he felt slighted. Tricking said ganglord into crushing his own girlfriend to death in the trunk of her own car was maybe a little more justified, but still insane.) (S)he seems to have simmered down considerably by the third game, however.
In short, the impression I got of The Boss was pretty close to revenge personified, (Kratos of God of War fame still wears that crown, as far as I know) if with a few silly quirks to diminish the horror somewhat.
I was thinking, if one of the GTAV protagonists had to be female, which one should it be? I don't think it would work for Michael because his entire character can be summed up with "mid-life crisis", and it could theoretically work for Franklin, but what about Trevor? If you didn't change anything about his personality, actions or mannerisms, just made him female, how good would that be?
As well know, not only are there not enough female protagonists out there, but there aren't enough that break the moulds of 'safe' characterisation. They're all conventionally attractive, very few of them have dark or grey morality, and the ones that are are mostly player-created avatars like the Saints Row boss. If Trevor had been female, and just as ugly, despicable and manic as he is now, it could probably have been one of the most unique female protagonists out there.
As well know, not only are there not enough female protagonists out there, but there aren't enough that break the moulds of 'safe' characterisation. They're all conventionally attractive, very few of them have dark or grey morality, and the ones that are are mostly player-created avatars like the Saints Row boss. If Trevor had been female, and just as ugly, despicable and manic as he is now, it could probably have been one of the most unique female protagonists out there.
I think the Saints Row 2, 3 and 4 are the best you can do.. their great games and you can make a female criminal character in those games.
I'd play it, too.V4Viewtiful said:We just discovered a gap in the market here, I'd play a game like that.
Now how do we go about filling that gap? Way I see it, we've got two options:
1) Start our own company, pour our entire life savings into it, raise additional funds through kickstarter, seek corporate investment by convincing boards of tight suites that we deserve millions of dollars to pursue an unproven demographic, learn how to code and program at a very high level and/or spend oodles of money securing the services of in-demand professionals, spend the next 2-3 years dedicating our lives to this one project that may very well fail, and at some point probably sacrifice a goat just to cover our bases.
2) Complain about the industry long and loud enough that someone else will do all the risky heavy lifting for us.
Kind of a no-brainer, right? I mean door number two will actually MAKE us money if we beg hard enough, and there's no such thing as failure when it comes to opinions. Basic game theory says we go Arkeesian.
As someone who is very critical of the "pop-culture critics" in this industry, I'd freaking love to see a game that is an overt feminists revenge fantasy. That's an honest sentiment, a unique idea, and a legitimate area of growth for the industry. I'd love for radical feminists to have their own corner of the market that caters to their wants and ideas.
Guess whose job it is to cater to that demographic? Here's a hint: no one currently making video games.