Idaho and Critical Race Theory

Trunkage

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So, now that we discussed CRT, can we discuss its banning

For example, Texas Anti-CRT bill, it banned conversation on current events and public policy. It bans any teaching any concept of supremacy.

But after seeing the 1776 report... this isn't suprising
 

Terminal Blue

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That's not what they're trying to ban from schools though, so it's still kind of irrelevant.
I had to jump back in to say this, but who cares what "they" are trying to ban in schools? What they're trying to ban in schools doesn't exist. It's a bunch of weird conspiracy theory nonsense about a secret communist plot to destroy America by making black people angry and making kids hate their country. These are people who think the 1776 report was a real work of historical analysis. These are people who hear conspiracy theories about how the Frankfurt school (who, again, were predominantly German Jews who lived through the holocaust) were some kind of secret Judeo-communist intellectual vanguard trying to destroy Christianity and the white race and think that sounds reasonable. If we're at the point of taking "them" seriously, we are in serious fucking trouble.

Again, this has always been the problem. "They" haven't read any critical race theory. They don't care what it's actually about. To them, the world is a struggle between absolute concepts of good and evil, because let's be real, they are evangelical Christians. Honestly, I'd assumed that we'd already moved past them and on to something a bit less stupid, but I guess at this point it's pretty hard to escape the fact that what you're doing and what they are doing are basically the same thing. You've both decided that something you don't understand must be just absolutely evil, primarily because of how it makes you feel.

There is a difference though. Don't let it go to your head, but I think you're smart enough to see the cognitive dissonance. You clearly aren't completely disinterested in the actual content of the material, but I also know that for any example I can give you that you are wrong, there will remain this core conspiratorial belief that there must be this cult of truly evil and irredeemable theory out there, this theory which is so transparently stupid even you can easily debunk it without needing to consider the point, yet also so omnipresent and persuasive that it's somehow infiltrated all of society. I think you need to go away and consider what need that belief fulfils for you, and what it would take for you to admit that that belief is wrong.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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So, now that we discussed CRT, can we discuss its banning

For example, Texas Anti-CRT bill, it banned conversation on current events and public policy. It bans any teaching any concept of supremacy.

But after seeing the 1776 report... this isn't suprising
No talking about current civil rights events, we solved those as soon as MLK got shot and anybody who says otherwise is an anti-white communist
 
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Trunkage

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No talking about current civil rights events, we solved those as soon as MLK got shot and anybody who says otherwise is an anti-white communist
We all know that BLM is a Farrakhanian cover

Also, I wonder if this is why so many Americans are politically illiterate.
 

Satinavian

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So we are anding the whole escapade on namecalling and with

"Stupid people we don't like oppose CRT. That is why we can identify other opposers with those as well and don't have to defend CRT on its merits." Got it.


For example, Texas Anti-CRT bill, it banned conversation on current events and public policy. It bans any teaching any concept of supremacy.
If true, that would obviously be bad. But that would also just be Texas using CRT as pretext to make the kind of shitty laws it is infamous for.
 

Seanchaidh

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"Stupid people we don't like oppose CRT. That is why we can identify other opposers with those as well and don't have to defend CRT on its merits." Got it.
You may as well debate the merits of philosophy, medicine, or science; it'd be about as useful.
 

Satinavian

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Medizin is proven to be useful by its success at healing stuff and prolonging life. Science is proven useful by the technologies based on it. CRT is proven useful by... oh, there isn't anything. It is as useful as homeopathy.

I don't have a problem with evaluating inequality and discrimination based on perceived race. That is a valid topic for social science. But the correct way to to this is actually doing science. Studies, numbers, experiments, models providing testable hypotheses etc.

CRT is not about that. CRT is about philosphers telling stories about society as they see it and assuming that has any merits on its own. CRT is about rejecting empiricism as method to explain society as some part of western establishment idea. CRT is about using utterly subjective viewpoints instead and asigning validity based on who that witness is.

CRT is (as most postmodern philosophy) about deconstructing stuff, tearing down illusion, questioning assumptions the establishment takes for granted. But it is not very good at recognizing illusion, recognizing stuff that is already questioned or building anything new.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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If you're looking for objectively measurable usefulness, sociology is a famously bad place to look.
 

Satinavian

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Yes. Not least to the chargring of sociologists who are painfully aware about that.

Still better than philosophy.
 

Terminal Blue

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CRT is about rejecting empiricism as method to explain society as some part of western establishment idea. CRT is about using utterly subjective viewpoints instead and asigning validity based on who that witness is.
Psst.

Empiricism is also about using subjective viewpoints.

The position you're trying (and failing) to represent here is called positivism. Leaving aside the actual philosophy of positivism, it's essentially the position that all knowledge should be modelled on the physical sciences and on mathematics, because knowledge in these fields has a higher degree of certainty (or positivity) than knowledge of more complex things, like human beings. The easier something can be adapted to simple rules, the more useful knowledge of it is.

The problem with this is that it isn't useful and it doesn't work. It doesn't even really work in the physical sciences any more, because the understanding of the physical sciences today is far more complicated (and thus less "positive") than it was a century and a half ago when Newtonian mechanics were the height of scientific knowledge. If anything, rather than the social and human sciences needing to become more like the physical sciences, the reverse has happened. Positivism certainly doesn't work in the human sciences because human beings are extremely complicated, and by constantly trying to reduce them to simple principles you're no longer learning anything about human beings. Thus, positivism is useless to the objectives of the human sciences. It's better to have contingent partial knowledge of complex humans than garbage attempts to define universal rules which are ultimately based on nothing at all.

Furthermore, it also just fundamentally doesn't work on a philosophical level. For one, it's hypocritical. Claiming that only positive knowledge is itself valid is a claim that can't be verified positively. It's a violation of basic empirical principles, like saying the Bible is true because it says so in the Bible. Positivism is an ideological positio, and it's an ideological position that only really exists to fuel some conflict between the physical and human sciences.

In reality, I've found that philosophers, social scientists and natural scientists generally get on just fine, because ultimately even though our methods differ we all kind of get the fundamental assumptions of empiricism. People who still cling really hard to positions like positivism and rationalism tend to be the "I fucking love science" bros. You know, the people who think they understand science but really just want to use it as a way to feel smarter than other people, or who do vocational degrees like engineering or CS and think that makes them a scientist. I'm not saying that's you, it's just my observation.
 
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Satinavian

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Hmmm, let us consider this.

Well, no, not really.

The main difference between empiricism and rationalism is if whether all knowledge ultimately comes from observation or if some comes from pure reason or is inborn and i really don't do either nativism or intuitionism (aside maybe for math). So i am certainly not a rationalist in that sense.

But i do subscribe to the idea that reason is useful to get knowledge even if not sufficient. So i would probably locate myself at one the many attempts to bridge that gap.


Edit : That answer only makes sense for the nonedited post claiming that my position was one of rationalism not empiricism.


Or to clarify :

Yes, empiricism also uses subjective viewpoints. Because empiricism is about observation and observation needs observers who always and necessarily have subjective viewpoints.
But that is treated as a problem to be solved, not a feature.
 
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Terminal Blue

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That answer only makes sense for the nonedited post claiming that my position was one of rationalism not empiricism.
Yeah, I kind of rethought that after posting it.

I think you're trying to do empiricism and just not really succeeding. I think positivism is a better description of your position, because I think it better describes what you're trying to do. The problem is, while positivism as a philosophy is technically empiricist on paper, the kind of "pop-science" positivism we get today certainly isn't.

But it is kind of going too far to imply you are a rationalist, even if what you're doing ultimately is rationalism, because I don't think you're doing it on purpose.

But that is treated as a problem to be solved, not a feature.
It's not a problem that can ever be solved.

That doesn't mean we get to slide back into rationalism and pretend we've solved it because we are super smart galaxy brain geniuses.

Be explicit about the conditions of knowledge and recognize the contingent nature of observations. It's not that difficult. It's just empiricsm.
 
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Satinavian

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Ok, since this is a completely new post, new answer.

The position you're trying (and failing) to represent here is called positivism. Leaving aside the actual philosophy of positivism, it's essentially the position that all knowledge should be modelled on the physical sciences and on mathematics, because knowledge in these fields has a higher degree of certainty (or positivity) than knowledge of more complex things, like human beings. The easier something can be adapted to simple rules, the more useful knowledge of it is.
Yes, that would be a far better fit. I don't object to being described as positivist.
Furthermore, it also just fundamentally doesn't work on a philosophical level. For one, it's hypocritical. Claiming that only positive knowledge is itself valid is a claim that can't be verified positively. It's a violation of basic empirical principles, like saying the Bible is true because it says so in the Bible. Positivism is an ideological positio, and it's an ideological position that only really exists to fuel some conflict between the physical and human sciences.
I am aware of that. Positivism is an ideological position and can't prove itself. At best it has some "it kinda works so let's continue using it" justification that can't exclude that there is something fundamentally misleading we also will never catch with that method. But, well, it kinda works.
In reality, I've found that philosophers, social scientists and natural scientists generally get on just fine, because ultimately even though our methods differ we all kind of get the fundamental assumptions of empiricism. People who still cling really hard to positions like positivism and rationalism tend to be the "I fucking love science" bros. You know, the people who think they understand science but really just want to use it as a way to feel smarter than other people, or who do vocational degrees like engineering or CS and think that makes them a scientist. I'm not saying that's you, it's just my observation.
In reality those are all people who are individuals. I certainly have heard enough less than nice things when i still worked at universities, but generally most people don't seek conflict or bother others working in other fields. And at least social scientists and natural scientists who had more overlap in projects and curriculum generally did not produce more inter-field arguments than they had intra-field arguments. I didn't have much profesional contacts with philosophers though. I am also not aware of intedisciplinary research or projects involving them and scientists in my time there. But that doesn't mean there was any significant conflict between the fields as such.

It's not a problem that can ever be solved.

That doesn't mean we get to slide back into rationalism and pretend we've solved it because we are super smart galaxy brain geniuses.

Be explicit about the conditions of knowledge and recognize the contingent nature of observations. It's not that difficult. It's just empiricsm.
I completely agree with that.
 

Schadrach

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So, now that we discussed CRT, can we discuss its banning

For example, Texas Anti-CRT bill, it banned conversation on current events and public policy. It bans any teaching any concept of supremacy.
Specifically, the Texas "anti-CRT" bill calls for the following (formatting partially mine - the Escapists list feature doesn't go from numbers, to letters, to lower case roman numerals like the bill's text does, but it's much more readable tagged as a list):

For any social studies course in the required curriculum:
  1. a teacher may not be compelled to discuss a particular current event or widely debated and currently controversial issue of public policy or social affairs;
  2. a teacher who chooses to discuss a topic described by Subdivision (1) shall, to the best of the teacher's ability, strive to explore the topic from diverse and contending perspectives without giving deference to any one perspective;
  3. a school district, open-enrollment charter school, or teacher may not require, make part of a course, or award a grade or course credit, including extra credit, for a student's:
    1. political activism, lobbying, or efforts to persuade members of the legislative or executive branch at the federal, state, or local level to take specific actions by direct communication; or
    2. participation in any internship, practicum, or similar activity involving social or public policy advocacy; and
  4. a teacher, administrator, or other employee of a state agency, school district, or open-enrollment charter school may not:
    1. be required to engage in training, orientation, or therapy that presents any form of race or sex stereotyping or blame on the basis of race or sex;
    2. require or make part of a course the concept that:
      1. one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex;
      2. an individual, by virtue of the individual's race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously;
      3. an individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of the individual's race;
      4. members of one race or sex cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race or sex;
      5. an individual's moral character, standing, or worth is necessarily determined by the individual's race or sex;
      6. an individual, by virtue of the individual's race or sex, bears responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex;
      7. an individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress on account of the individual's race or sex;
      8. meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are racist or sexist or were created by members of a particular race to oppress members of another race;
      9. the advent of slavery in the territory that is now the United States constituted the true founding of the United States; or
      10. with respect to their relationship to American values, slavery and racism are anything other than deviations from, betrayals of, or failures to live up to, the authentic founding principles of the United States, which include liberty and equality; and
    3. require an understanding of The 1619 Project.
it banned conversation on current events and public policy.
It does not do that, it specifically says that a teacher cannot be compelled to do so and essentially that the teacher decides to do so the teacher isn't allowed to take sides and preach a particular stance in any political controversy but instead "shall, to the best of the teacher's ability, strive to explore the topic from diverse and contending perspectives without giving deference to any one perspective."

It also bans teachers from giving credit for political activism, no bonus points for going to protests, for example.

As far as what it actually bans teachers from teaching, look under 4 above, there's a list.
 

Trunkage

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Specifically, the Texas "anti-CRT" bill calls for the following (formatting partially mine - the Escapists list feature doesn't go from numbers, to letters, to lower case roman numerals like the bill's text does, but it's much more readable tagged as a list):





It does not do that, it specifically says that a teacher cannot be compelled to do so and essentially that the teacher decides to do so the teacher isn't allowed to take sides and preach a particular stance in any political controversy but instead "shall, to the best of the teacher's ability, strive to explore the topic from diverse and contending perspectives without giving deference to any one perspective."

It also bans teachers from giving credit for political activism, no bonus points for going to protests, for example.

As far as what it actually bans teachers from teaching, look under 4 above, there's a list.
Maybe you can explain this to me. Why, under section 4, is there a list of items. And then the 1619 project. How is the 1619 project related to those other items?
 

tstorm823

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Maybe you can explain this to me. Why, under section 4, is there a list of items. And then the 1619 project. How is the 1619 project related to those other items?
I mean, the thesis of the 1619 project is essentially points 9 and 10 in the list, and it's the obvious inspiration for the bill.
 

Silvanus

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Specifically, the Texas "anti-CRT" bill calls for the following (formatting partially mine - the Escapists list feature doesn't go from numbers, to letters, to lower case roman numerals like the bill's text does, but it's much more readable tagged as a list):
For any social studies course in the required curriculum:
  1. a teacher may not be compelled to discuss a particular current event or widely debated and currently controversial issue of public policy or social affairs;
  2. a teacher who chooses to discuss a topic described by Subdivision (1) shall, to the best of the teacher's ability, strive to explore the topic from diverse and contending perspectives without giving deference to any one perspective;
Wait... so if a teacher wants to discuss climate change, they have to give equal deference to climate science and denialism?

The role of education should not be to create false equivalences. To do such is at odds with a teacher's obligation to communicate the truth.
 
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Avnger

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Wait... so if a teacher wants to discuss climate change, they have to give equal deference to climate science and denialism?

The role of education should not be to create false equivalences. To do such is at odds with a teacher's obligation to communicate the truth.
Just to add to the list of "controversies" they could be forced to create false equivalences for:

1. Biden winning the 2024 election over Trump
2. the Southern Strategy
3. the Theory of Evolution
4. slavery being the primary cause of the US Civil War
5. vaccines
6. Obama being a natural born US citizen