Hopi are not just Matrilineal, instead are actually traditionally Matriarchal. The decisions for the Tribe are traditionally made by Women. Women are traditionally the ones to conduct business, run the economy and own property. Men take the woman's name upon marriage and become part of the woman's family.Men pretty much had no say in the economy, business, property, relations with other tribes or children, all of that was controlled by women. Men had their own clubs and what not, but did not make the decisions for the tribe.
This may help:
http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/goettnerabendroth.html
I realize this expression is generalizing for effect, but I've always hated it. Alexander has Hephaestion. Gilgamesh had Enkidu. etc. etc. Not to say woman weren't extremely important or not shafted by history, just that it's a cheap and misleading way of expressing that sentiment, and I feel many of the "biggest" movers and shakers of history are in some ways ill defined by that mold. I guess I was always more partial to the Hypatias and Lovelaces anyway.
just some questions. I'll be up front in saying I have to take what you say with a good sized grain of salt, but I'm still interested to hear what you have to say.
So regarding the more antiquated views of the hopi, as I'm reading that they've shifted away from the more female dominated structure in recent years, if a man was "of the mother" in every way, would he not be given the same respect as the other women? If not, was it ever addressed as to why?
Were there any notably unique cultural/social practices/pastimes of the Hopi compared to the natural degree of difference you see in other tribes that are unrelated to gender.
Were women held to higher expectations than men? If a woman didn't meet those expectations or was not "of the mother", was she simply treated like a man, or was she treated differently, but still "superior" to a man in the context of social hierarchy?
Does your society have any major historical figures or "heroes" in your culture.
Were men who were particularly gifted in some significant way recognized within tribe historically, or were the shafted the same way most of our history shafts women? Perhaps men weren't given the opportunity to be that significant? Or were any individuals of note in general not really...noted? (I realize it's a more communal society, so I could see the methods of recording keeping being less focused on individuals, male or female).
Did the Hopi have that "two-spirit" concept in any capacity or form? (I know I'm generalizing something that's probably from a totally different tribe) What about lgbt stuff in general? How did that factor in?
So saying that they view men and women as "equal" despite showing obvious deference to women in many/most respects, how is that reconciled within the society or by what reason were you told that they justified that seeming contradiction? Did this balance of power/philosophy shift gradually over time, to make the culture's views seem less contradictory based on historical context?
Were men perpetually resigned to the idea that a clan mother/other women could overrule them in myriad different ways? Was this a source of strife? If not, was it due to men being ingrained with the idea that "mother knows best" (I had to), or something else? Were those clubs you mentioned designed to pacify men by giving them the illusion of influence?
Was some form of philosophy (spiritual or otherwise) frequently practiced? If so, were there philosophers of both genders? Are there any noted philosophers (or whatever the equivalent might be)?
Were there warrior women when warring was deemed necessary?
Was it always like this for as long as anyone remembers, or was there a point in which these practices/views started to become introduced? If that is recorded to some capacity, how did it occur?
How were sexuality/relationships different? I read that sex wasn't something to be ashamed of and (I'd assume) woman were given a general position of control based on the reverence towards the ability to make life, but what about romance? What about the balance of influence/communication in a relationship itself? What about actual sexual practices?
I'm sure I have more questions, but that's all I got right now.
It's an interesting question. Women do have a different way of dealing with interpersonal problems, relying more on subtlety and social punishment rather than all out confrontation and physical punishment. I think that if society was ruled primarily by women, then we would see less large scale wars but a bunch more of espionage, sabotage and treason. Would the world be better though? I don't really think so.
Probably pretty similar. Espionage might have even more of a roll in warfare than it already does, considering what people have already mentioned in terms of conflict differences, but apart from that i think things wouldn't be that different.
If we look at history, we see that matriarch societies typically don't work for whatever reason.
The only ones that really survive to this day, are typically not much beyond rudimentary tribes.
Men are women are just different. We're a sexually dimorphic species. It doesn't seem to me that these differences are purely physical, and for whatever reason, something about males lends themselves to leadership.
But, ultimately, I don't know any of the science behind it, and it's just a belief.
just some questions. I'll be up front in saying I have to take what you say with a good sized grain of salt, but I'm still interested to hear what you have to say.
So regarding the more antiquated views of the hopi, as I'm reading that they've shifted away from the more female dominated structure in recent years, if a man was "of the mother" in every way, would he not be given the same respect as the other women? If not, was it ever addressed as to why?
Were there any notably unique cultural/social practices/pastimes of the Hopi compared to the natural degree of difference you see in other tribes that are unrelated to gender.
Were women held to higher expectations than men? If a woman didn't meet those expectations or was not "of the mother", was she simply treated like a man, or was she treated differently, but still "superior" to a man in the context of social hierarchy?
Does your society have any major historical figures or "heroes" in your culture.
Were men who were particularly gifted in some significant way recognized within tribe historically, or were the shafted the same way most of our history shafts women? Perhaps men weren't given the opportunity to be that significant? Or were any individuals of note in general not really...noted? (I realize it's a more communal society, so I could see the methods of recording keeping being less focused on individuals, male or female).
Did the Hopi have that "two-spirit" concept in any capacity or form? (I know I'm generalizing something that's probably from a totally different tribe) What about lgbt stuff in general? How did that factor in?
So saying that they view men and women as "equal" despite showing obvious deference to women in many/most respects, how is that reconciled within the society or by what reason were you told that they justified that seeming contradiction? Did this balance of power/philosophy shift gradually over time, to make the culture's views seem less contradictory based on historical context?
Were men perpetually resigned to the idea that a clan mother/other women could overrule them in myriad different ways? Was this a source of strife? If not, was it due to men being ingrained with the idea that "mother knows best" (I had to), or something else? Were those clubs you mentioned designed to pacify men by giving them the illusion of influence?
Was some form of philosophy (spiritual or otherwise) frequently practiced? If so, were there philosophers of both genders? Are there any noted philosophers (or whatever the equivalent might be)?
Were there warrior women when warring was deemed necessary?
Was it always like this for as long as anyone remembers, or was there a point in which these practices/views started to become introduced? If that is recorded to some capacity, how did it occur?
How were sexuality/relationships different? I read that sex wasn't something to be ashamed of and (I'd assume) woman were given a general position of control based on the reverence towards the ability to make life, but what about romance? What about the balance of influence/communication in a relationship itself? What about actual sexual practices?
I'm sure I have more questions, but that's all I got right now.
1) Hopi didn't " shift" away, That would imply some voluntary change in society, but instead they persist in spite of forced assimilation after all these years. Hopi were literally forced into boarding schools, kidnapped, tortured, abused, and killed by the US government in boarding schools and they literally kidnapped people from the tribe as children and trained them to do what they told them to do and brought them back and placed them in "control" over the tribes to make decisions on behalf of the tribe but the tribe itself does not recognize or comply with that " appointed" authority. This is the force assimilation imposed upon by the US government via Mafia and church control. Hopi way of life still continues in spite of this, however. People still ignore them and go about their way of life as they always have, even in the face of abuse, torture and death.
THE US government has been forcing a religious paternal system upon the tribes as part of their force assimilation of the people, this never stopped and continues to this day. This was my school, where they tied me to a chair and made me read from the bible aloud while they turned the pages while others were beaten and raped to " get the devil out of us": [link]http://www.deseretnews.com/article/33984/HOPI-MOMS-TELL-SENATE-OF-CHILD-ABUSE.html?pg=all[/link]
[link]https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19890210&id=z1NTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ToQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4225,3140089[/link]
The US government put the Mafia and BIA in control of the tribes.
The BIA control the Tribes, not the Tribes.
[link]http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h3577.html[/link]
[link]http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dark-days-for-bureau-of-indian-affairs/[/link]
[link]https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=886&dat=19890209&id=DwtTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4IEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6832,1958346[/link]
Their idea of education:
[link]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_boarding_schools[/link]
[link]https://www.ncronline.org/news/peace-justice/boarding-schools-black-hole-native-american-history[/link]
[link]http://grisham.newsvine.com/_news/2012/03/05/10582624-the-horror-of-native-american-boarding-schools[/link]
Others speak of their abuse:
[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1tiQB8gt5g[/link]
[link]http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/south-dakota-boarding-school-survivors-detail-sexual-abuse-42420[/link]
[link]http://www.indianz.com/News/2013/009122.asp[/link]
This was not just my school, this was their actual assimilation of our people on a mass scale.
How they stole land:
[link]http://www.angelfire.com/art/hoganview/Geopol.htm[/link]
Why they wanted it, and cleaning up some of the mess doesn't stop the current mining.
[link]http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2014/08/06/uranium-mining-navajo-reservation-cleanup-radioactive-waste/13680399/[/link]
[link]http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/06/17/532-superfund-sites-indian-country-155316[/link]
[link]http://www.umich.edu/~snre492/parker.html[/link]
BIA STILL mafia run even now:
[link]http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/05/28/reign-bia-montana-mafia-needs-be-over[/link]
Hell, 3 years? LOL it never stopped, just a change of boss.
[link]http://articles.latimes.com/1992-01-11/news/mn-1520_1_indian-gaming/2[/link]
Who is allowed to prosecute:
[link]http://www.tribal-institute.org/lists/jurisdiction.htm[/link]
Notice how only the state can prosecute a non "Indian" perpetrator and victim, tribal courts can prosecute only "Indian" perpetrators and victims and ONLY feds can prosecute Non Indians vs Indians. EVEN though these tribal courts are controlled by the US Government BIA, which they have mafia run. Can you see how this works in reality? Mafia prosecutes "Indians", everyone else Oh well, feds are too busy to concern themselves with "Indians" being harmed. If they want humane treatment they should just assimilate eh?
[link]http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/02/on-indian-land-criminals-can-get-away-with-almost-anything/273391/[/link]
SO yes, the Tribes do not call the shots for their reservations, have been tortured , abused and killed for trying to continue with their way of life, are being poisoned,tortured, abused and killed even now and are still carrying on with our traditions and history even now in spite of this many generations of abuse and horror.
2) Of course males were considered to be " of the mother" and unlike western culture, you could decide how you wished to live rather than be pigeonholed into " boys do this and girls do this" stereotypes. Transgenders have always been recognized as a normal part of society, unlike in the west. This is why there is some confusion on whether or not Hopi are an actual matriarchy, because Hopi do not define "gender" based on sex alone and recognize the male and female spirit instead. If one's spirit was female, they were called two spirits, and they could perform either male or female roles as they please. People choose what path they want in life it is not decided for them. There were people who were born with male sex organs that performed traditional female roles and are considered "one of the girls" due to their female spirit. Transgender Males to Females ALSO lived as other women in society traditionally unlike how they were treated in the west, Transgender Female to Male lived as males and joined their clubs instead and all were accepted as such. Some two spirits freely did both. But no, Cisgender males did not usually participate in female activities.
In a society where no force is used, it was not that they were prevented by force from participating, it was they chose not to out of social norms instead. Males did not feel they were being treated unfairly, and enjoyed the benefits of having such a nurturing, caring society, as many of their needs were taken care of for them and they had plenty of time to do the things they enjoyed doing instead is the reason why this system was not really questioned. Men did not see it as a bad thing that the women were doing many of the activities they saw as stressful. Males were not actually "oppressed" due to lack of force, as their clubs allowed them great freedom to do all sorts of things in regards to science, religion and the arts.
3)There are numerous social differences and pastimes, the men's clubs were often quite unique, as Hopi believe that we are meant to have many religions on earth, not just one as some tend to believe. To better understand this, you have to understand what Hopi actually are. Instead believe that the " great spirit has a unique relationship with the different people of the earth and that each has their own instructions and we should not interfere with their relationship with the great spirit instead. There is no " one religion" in Hopi way of life, and though in the west, they apply the meaning of " Hopi" to mean that we are of a certain tribe, race or people but that is not what it actually means. Anyone regardless of race history or background can become Hopi, instead Hopi is a way of life. To live peacefully on this earth, to keep the promise to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it and learn the Hopi way of life is to be Hopi instead. What people now consider to be " the Hopi tribe" is actually many tribes that have come together as one people over time who agreed to live " the Hopi way" instead. The original Hopi tribe are descended from the people who came in reed boats to South America from the Islands that were destroyed according to our history. Then, over time, more tribes joined and chose to become Hopi. as more came to settle and live alongside Hopi as one people they were encouraged to keep their own religions, traditions, and histories as these are seen as very important and thus created the very diverse and vibrant history of " the Hopi people" as is known today. This has caused much misunderstanding from those who have attempted to study Hopi culture since the many people do not have one shared history or religion as they expected to find. Instead Hopi actually have hundreds of histories and religions, the remnants of the many people who have come together to live as one. Now for some specific examples, the "kachina" clans ( as understood by the west) are something unknown/ different to many other tribes, and pretty unique, as well as how and why Hopi have built and lived in apartment building like structures for thousands of years in preparation for an overpopulated earth. Yes, Hopi have lived in apartment buildings, traditionally have small families, use little resources and have been strict environmentalists for thousands of years in preparation for when the earth will become overpopulated and polluted. I am not sure if there is another society on earth that has done that.
4)Every person was treated as an individual and was not held " to standards" but instead just viewed " as themselves" or as others have said "as you are". Differences were celebrated and considered gifts, not something to be looked down upon and ridiculed. Children were raised as a part of the community, so if one was not so good with children, those that were took care of the children while those that were not were able to find what they did enjoy and were good at. In Hopi culture, people try to help one another have access to the resources they needed to succeed and find what they enjoyed and were good at instead of try to force people to meet other's expectations of themselves. People were encouraged to do what they enjoyed doing instead of trying to force them to fit others ideas of what that was. Having one's own choice and path in life is considered so sacred and important to Hopi core beliefs, that Hopi way of life cannot even exist in an representative government at all, since you cannot give your choice to another to make for you, it is far too important to do that. Women are not considered " superior", just different. Women are considered " the life Bringers" and as such, were considered to have the final say in regards to what happens to the children that come from their own wombs and that was why women were the ones who ultimately make the decisions for the tribe. Mothers were the ones to sacrifice their own bodies and lives (death during childbirth and those that live to dedicate their lives to keeping the children alive) for the tribe to continue for generations thus why it was considered that they should be the ones whose decisions should be of the most weight in the community. Mothers are considered who brings us life with their own bodies and allows us to live, who feed us with their bosom and allow us to grow, who hold us close to them to make sure our hearts still beat and our lungs still breathe, that clean us when we are dirty and hold us when we grieve. The way Hopi view this is that there is non one more trusted to do what is best for the people than those who gave their lives to bring us into this world and keep us alive. So while each person must make their own choice as to what they will do themselves, yes the mothers have final say in what the tribe as a whole does because they have more invested in keeping us alive than anyone.
5) There are many "Heroes" in our culture, and due to Hopi being of many histories and religion backgrounds, more than most due to the hundreds of different people who came together to live as one. Yes, people both men and women were recognized for their gifts, but due to how Hopi celebrate everyone's differences as great gifts, this creates MANY heroes, not just a few as is done in western history. The idea of " shafting" anyone is not considered an acceptable behavior at all. People were taught to show great respect for one another and not ridicule, demean or belittle anyone, ever. That was not socially acceptable, ever and people were held in high regard instead. Men are honored by their "club" or what are refereed to as " religious society" but in reality they were everything from people who get together to create and play games, do science experiments, share history, sing, dance, design costumes, pray, discuss religion, discuss philosophy, or whatever that club is deigned to do and they were honored by their clans, village, and tribes. Men and women are both honored, this is not reserved for any one sex.
6) Yes, Hopi celebrate Two spirits and they are of high social status and rank. Not only do Hopi believe in " two spirits" but also believe there are many more genders. While usually just discussing Male, female, Both, Male to female, female to male as primary, Hopi actually believe there are many more, and much that people do not understand about gender and spirituality.
7) Was covered in #4.
8) Men do have influence, and their input of course was considered by the mothers making the decisions and anyone who ever has a concern, male or female are encouraged to discuss it openly. These things were never silenced. The way western society treats people in general really cannot be compared, because people never interacted in that manner in Hopi society. The respect for one another is too high to ever not allow someone to have their say. People genuinely care what others have to say and consider it regardless of social status. People are not treated as beneath others as they are in western culture so no way to really compare that type of behavior since it is pretty obsolete.
9) Yes, both males and females discuss philosophy and have clubs for this.
10) Yes there are warrior women, and women who primarily participated in male activities.
11)No it was not always like this, it became like this due to the things that happened in history.
We are taught in Hopi oral history about the time before we evolved into humans. Keeping in mind that everything in Hopi tradition has a spirit. The planets, stars, asteroids.. air everything is considered a " being", this does not turn them into a muppet, it still just means they are the sun, the earth and the air like is understood in the west. The Hopi History of creation (the one from my clan anyhow as they are all different depending on the original tribe they came from) (Greatly summarized as much as I can) is that the planets and stars are created from dark spider woman ( Black hole) who spins out the stars and the planets while drawing in all that come near her. She not only destroys but also gives life. the black hole and the sun worked together to create life on earth sending particles down to earth that formed " tiny little creatures moving around" and that is how we started out. This was the beginning of the first world (age) and over much time, we grew and changed as more particles came down from the sun and black hole that changed us into bigger creatures that would not stop fighting.
By the time we entered the second world we were viscous creatures that ate one another and fought all the time. The second world lasted a long time and we continued to fight and eat one another and change and that by the time of the end of the 2nd world, we were more human like we are today, but STILL fought and ate one another and were quite unpleasant. The 3rd world also lasted a very long time, but in the 3rd world, more particles came down and changed us in a different way this time and gave us awareness of our actions, and ability to think. We still could not stop fighting however and chose to use this knowledge for bad instead of good. It was in the 3rd world that we created great advances in science and had massive wars and caused mass destruction. So much destruction that those who survived it promised to learn from these atrocities and to never repeat those mistakes. At the beginning of the 4th world, we created the great place of learning in the south to preserve the knowledge of the 3rd world ( the Mayan ruins in the south). We are taught that we were supposed to build that and learn from our past mistakes, but then people did not want to change and broke their promise and they tried to repeat the horrors of the 3rd world and caused much suffering and death due to it. The Hopi people left them to destroy themselves and moved North to keep their promise to the earth. We are taught that we chose this way of life due to learning from the horrific mistakes we made in the past and making a promise to instead be mindful of our actions and take care of all. We are taught that those that did not learn from their actions in the 3rd world are trying to repeat the mistakes of the 3rd world that caused massive wars, destruction and death. We believe if you do not learn from our past mistakes we will repeat them. We believe that we can create a paradise here on this earth with out choices and actions or destroy everything and create a hell of suffering and despair, but either way, we will be forced to live through it. We were taught that the present time that we are now living in is the transitional time from the 4th and 5th world, where humans will be having a drastic change in life again within our lifetimes, and that we are the ones who experience that.
12) Sex is viewed as one of the best gifts of life, that it is beautiful, spiritual and open, and not a bad thing to be ashamed of. Hopi used to have open displays of sex prior to the US punishing anyone who did so and condemning it. Both males and female initiate sex, and it is seen as a great thing that is openly discussed. Thee are no weird hang ups about talking about what is pleasurable or anything like is experienced in western society with that. The condemnation in western society over people expressing their thoughts and feelings does not really exist, so everything is pretty straightforward and open.
13)Hopefully my answers are what you were wanting to know, but if you have any other questions, I will do my best to help.
1) Hopi didn't " shift" away, That would imply some voluntary change in society, but instead they persist in spite of forced assimilation after all these years. Hopi were literally forced into boarding schools, kidnapped, tortured, abused, and killed by the US government in boarding schools and they literally kidnapped people from the tribe as children and trained them to do what they told them to do and brought them back and placed them in "control" over the tribes to make decisions on behalf of the tribe but the tribe itself does not recognize or comply with that " appointed" authority. This is the force assimilation imposed upon the US government via Mafia and church control. Hopi way of life still constitutes in spite of this, however. People still ignore them and go about their way of life as they always have, even in the face of abuse, torture and death.
Who is allowed to prosecute:
Wait, what? Didn't you say that the Hopi were super nice to the American government so they left them alone? Now you're saying the American government killed and converted them? What's the story, then?
Lil devils x said:
In a society where no force is used, it was not that they were prevented by force from participating, it was they chose not to out of social norms instead. Males did not feel they were being treated unfairly, and enjoyed the benefits of having such a nurturing, caring society, as many of their needs were taken care of for them and they had plenty of time to do the things they enjoyed doing instead is the reason why this system was not really questioned. Men did not see it as a bad thing that the women were doing many of the activities they saw as stressful. Males were not actually "oppressed" due to lack of force, as their clubs allowed them great freedom to do all sorts of things in regards to science, religion and the arts.
And THIS straight up sounds like the bullshit reasons people used to excuse the oppression of women. "They like being in the kitchen! The working world's too stressful and scary for them! They're happier like this, really. What, ask them? Why would we need to do that?"
Not to mention that paragraph about how women get final say contradicts both your assertion that there were no leaders and that no one gave their decisions to someone else.
I'm sorry, but given your numerous contradictions and the ridiculously idealistic picture you're painting, I gotta agree with those who say this sounds less like fact and more like preaching - or a con.
1) Hopi didn't " shift" away, That would imply some voluntary change in society, but instead they persist in spite of forced assimilation after all these years. Hopi were literally forced into boarding schools, kidnapped, tortured, abused, and killed by the US government in boarding schools and they literally kidnapped people from the tribe as children and trained them to do what they told them to do and brought them back and placed them in "control" over the tribes to make decisions on behalf of the tribe but the tribe itself does not recognize or comply with that " appointed" authority. This is the force assimilation imposed upon the US government via Mafia and church control. Hopi way of life still constitutes in spite of this, however. People still ignore them and go about their way of life as they always have, even in the face of abuse, torture and death.
Who is allowed to prosecute:
Wait, what? Didn't you say that the Hopi were super nice to the American government so they left them alone? Now you're saying the American government killed and converted them? What's the story, then?
Lil devils x said:
In a society where no force is used, it was not that they were prevented by force from participating, it was they chose not to out of social norms instead. Males did not feel they were being treated unfairly, and enjoyed the benefits of having such a nurturing, caring society, as many of their needs were taken care of for them and they had plenty of time to do the things they enjoyed doing instead is the reason why this system was not really questioned. Men did not see it as a bad thing that the women were doing many of the activities they saw as stressful. Males were not actually "oppressed" due to lack of force, as their clubs allowed them great freedom to do all sorts of things in regards to science, religion and the arts.
And THIS straight up sounds like the bullshit reasons people used to excuse the oppression of women. "They like being in the kitchen! The working world's too stressful and scary for them! They're happier like this, really. What, ask them? Why would we need to do that?"
Not to mention that paragraph about how women get final say contradicts both your assertion that there were no leaders and that no one gave their decisions to someone else.
I'm sorry, but given your numerous contradictions and the ridiculously idealistic picture you're painting, I gotta agree with those who say this sounds less like fact and more like preaching - or a con.
The US military and government left Hopi alone for a very long time and Hopi have never been relocated and reside in the single oldest continuously occupied settlement in North America. Hopi have never fought in a war against the US nor have agreed to be subject to their jurisdiction. It was when the corrupt Bureau of Indian Affairs(BIA) put the Mafia and church in charge of the tribes assimilation that these things have occurred ILLEGALLY. The US government's actions are actually illegal under their own laws. Hopi actually STILL resist conversion in spite of these actions, even now.
While you may think yes that sounds very similar to the oppression of women, but unlike with the oppression of women, men are not beaten into submission as is the case with Domestic violence, men are not physically prevented or even told they cannot do something. Men are not told they cannot do "women's work" they are instead just encouraged to do what they enjoy. Men are not actually told they cannot do these things, they don't even bother with them. A guy here or there may do so, but usually didn't do so for long. Not due to being run off by people being mean to them, but due to just wanting to do something else instead.
Take economy and trade for example, we have had men that participated, but usually they were not as successful as the women were in negotiations, and yes, this is actually due to the same reason commercials use smiling sexy women to sell products even now: Sex sells. Men liked talking to the sexy women more than they wanted to talk to the men so the women sold more products due to yes, sex. In terms of women selling to other women, women are ALSO more comfortable and trusting of a " sister" selling her something than some guy she thinks is staring at her breasts. The same reason businesses today use women and sexuality to sell products is the same reason women were considered " better at it". Yes, Hopi women used sexual attraction and flirtation to negotiate and it worked very well.
I am in no way saying that this is "superior" or better than equality, that should be made clear. I am just telling you how these things are done and exist in Hopi society. That may sound idealistic" but it really is not. This is in no way perfect, and some of the "clubs" activities you may find very disturbing...
You have your own say over what you choose to do. You do not have to do " what the mothers say" and you can choose to leave whenever you wish, that is your choice if you wish to go live on your own. If you wish to join them you are free to do that as well, but yes you would respect their wishes if you do choose to join them in what they have planned. It is still your choice either way. Asking someone to join instead of using force to get cooperation does not suddenly remove one's choice.
Please show the "numerous contradictions" as I am not seeing what you mean by that. I think you may just misunderstand how those things work differently than they do in the west or see the other options available.
Talking about how things are from where I come from, does not mean I am " preaching" that others should do that in any way. I am simply answering questions the best I can when asked about the culture I come from. In fact, we are taught we are not supposed to ever force people to do things " our way" that is part of core beliefs, and indoctrination is viewed as very very wrong.
Heremequaftewa explained this well here: The Hopi knows it is not right to go about trying to change people who have religious beliefs that are different from their own, and he will not try to force them to follow the Hopi way of life. I would not try to force the young people of the white man to live and believe my way. I will not even force my own young people to be initiated into our religious societies. I will only ask them if they want to join or be initiated into them. If they say "no," it will be respected. This is the very basis of our life, we must not force other people to change their ways."
You keep saying you don't think this society is superior yet you continue to talk about how superior it is to the West and how perfect it is in general.
So please, tell me more about the flaws of this set up.[/quote]
You keep saying you don't think this society is superior yet you continue to talk about how superior it is to the West and how perfect it is in general.
So please, tell me more about the flaws of this set up.
I have not talked about it being superior, I have not said it was better, just different.
One of the biggest flaws of course is what to do with an extremely violent individual or a serial killer or such. As I stated about some of the " disturbing clubs" men had.. well one of " secret societies" was a group of men who make people " disappear" and I am not exactly sure of those details. But when you had someone who murdered, raped or did really horrible things, it was not uncommon for them to disappear in the night and never be seen again and people didn't question it too much( mostly because they were relieved they were gone and not harm anyone else.)
Then of course there is the matter of trying to do something good for the community, but due to the possibility of it being harmful to earth, it being condemned and lives lost over that decision. The promise to not harm the earth and how very serious this is taken means even life saving technologies may not be considered as an option.
Men not owning property is also a huge flaw, there is no reason why property should be left to the daughter and not the son, and a man having to leave his home simply because the woman does not want him anymore. In addition, traditionally the men worked the fields, and that was very difficult work that should have been shared more equally between men and women. There are also the ideas that cis males were not often very good with children, when that is not true, they just do things in different ways.
Just as Paternal society has some weird ideas about things, so does maternal. That is why what I would actually like to see is a combination of the best from both structures and correcting the mistakes of both at the same time.
Is it correct to say then that people in Hopi society are kept in their place more via cultural traditions, social norms and risk of things like social isolation and ostracizion rather than violence?
Not exactly, as those things exist in western society and ostracizion of anyone is not something socially acceptable at all and is seen as abhorrent. Ridiculing and such is not ever acceptable. From birth, people are taught that we treat every thing with a great deal of respect. Plants, animals, rocks, soil, people, everything even the air itself. All things must be respected and we should be thankful for them instead. We are taught the importance of caring for all things and being very mindful of our actions as our actions and choices cause other things to happen that we will be forced to live with and should always be very careful of our actions to make sure we do no harm. We are taught to hold a great deal of responsibility for our actions and be mindful of the impact they have. That we do not want to do these things and be the one who was responsible for making these horrible things happen because we want to make our world a better place instead.
Breaking our promise to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it is seen as the worst thing we could possibly do, as we are taught that instead of having a heaven and hell that is somewhere else, that we either make this earth a heaven or hell by our decisions and actions and we will either be able to enjoy the paradise we created or suffer the through the hell we created, but either way we would have to live with our actions here on this earth. If we pollute the waters and soil then we will suffer from that pollution. If we treat people badly, then we will grow that behavior and be forced to have it imposed upon us as well. The reason why people do things in Hopi society was due to not wanting to damage society or the world we live in and try to take care of all things instead, not use ridicule and such, but instead would discuss how actions affect the whole of society and the future. You do not need ostracizion to receive cooperation, but instead help people understand why we should do things due to how those actions impact the world we live in.
You keep saying you don't think this society is superior yet you continue to talk about how superior it is to the West and how perfect it is in general.
So please, tell me more about the flaws of this set up.
I have not talked about it being superior, I have not said it was better, just different.
One of the biggest flaws of course is what to do with an extremely violent individual or a serial killer or such. As I stated about some of the " disturbing clubs" men had.. well one of " secret societies" was a group of men who make people " disappear" and I am not exactly sure of those details. But when you had someone who murdered, raped or did really horrible things, it was not uncommon for them to disappear in the night and never be seen again and people didn't question it too much( mostly because they were relieved they were gone and not harm anyone else.)
Then of course there is the matter of trying to do something good for the community, but due to the possibility of it being harmful to earth, it being condemned and lives lost over that decision. The promise to not harm the earth and how very serious this is taken means even life saving technologies may not be considered as an option.
Men not owning property is also a huge flaw, there is no reason why property should be left to the daughter and not the son, and a man having to leave his home simply because the woman does not want him anymore. In addition, traditionally the men worked the fields, and that was very difficult work that should have been shared more equally between men and women. There are also the ideas that cis males were not often very good with children, when that is not true, they just do things in different ways.
Just as Paternal society has some weird ideas about things, so does maternal. That is why what I would actually like to see is a combination of the best from both structures and correcting the mistakes of both at the same time.
If this is true, then you need to seriously work on your pitch, because literally every post you've made in this thread comes off less as helpful information and more "Western society sucks, let me tell you about how great and wonderful the Hopi are." Like, if you're wondering why people are reacting to you with hostility and refusing to hear what you have to say, it's probably because of that.
Even this list of flaws is somewhat lacking in comparison to the multitude of shit-talking you've done in regards to Western society.
EDIT: Also, upon reading your post above mine, I see that you are CONTINUING to contradict yourself. You told me that people who refuse to go with the leader are told to leave and alleged criminals simply disappear, and then say that the Hopi never ostracize people and simply convince them to come around to your way of thinking?
I recently saw a post on Tumblr (Please keep your collective groaning to a dull roar.) insisting that the phrase "Life is unfair, get used to it" and the philosophy behind it is a product of patriarchal society - that it's a philosophy men espouse, which is why it's used and believed.
Well, it is espoused by different people for different reasons, but clearly it is very convenient for whoever is doing well, regardless of whether it is true.
Saetha said:
A matriarchal society would say "Life is unfair, so we should make it fair." The implication there is pretty clear - men are concerned with power and lack sympathy, so they don't care if life is unfair, while woman are somehow inherently more empathizing and compassionate, and would make a better and more providing society overall.
Well, that is weirdly essentialist. Is there anything to back that up? I honestly don't hear 'life's unfair, get used to it' all that often and I don't know whether it is more or less heard in the few matriarchal societies there are.
You keep saying you don't think this society is superior yet you continue to talk about how superior it is to the West and how perfect it is in general.
So please, tell me more about the flaws of this set up.
I have not talked about it being superior, I have not said it was better, just different.
One of the biggest flaws of course is what to do with an extremely violent individual or a serial killer or such. As I stated about some of the " disturbing clubs" men had.. well one of " secret societies" was a group of men who make people " disappear" and I am not exactly sure of those details. But when you had someone who murdered, raped or did really horrible things, it was not uncommon for them to disappear in the night and never be seen again and people didn't question it too much( mostly because they were relieved they were gone and not harm anyone else.)
Then of course there is the matter of trying to do something good for the community, but due to the possibility of it being harmful to earth, it being condemned and lives lost over that decision. The promise to not harm the earth and how very serious this is taken means even life saving technologies may not be considered as an option.
Men not owning property is also a huge flaw, there is no reason why property should be left to the daughter and not the son, and a man having to leave his home simply because the woman does not want him anymore. In addition, traditionally the men worked the fields, and that was very difficult work that should have been shared more equally between men and women. There are also the ideas that cis males were not often very good with children, when that is not true, they just do things in different ways.
Just as Paternal society has some weird ideas about things, so does maternal. That is why what I would actually like to see is a combination of the best from both structures and correcting the mistakes of both at the same time.
If this is true, then you need to seriously work on your pitch, because literally every post you've made in this thread comes off less as helpful information and more "Western society sucks, let me tell you about how great and wonderful the Hopi are." Like, if you're wondering why people are reacting to you with hostility and refusing to hear what you have to say, it's probably because of that.
Even this list of flaws is somewhat lacking in comparison to the multitude of shit-talking you've done in regards to Western society.
EDIT: Also, upon reading your post above mine, I see that you are CONTINUING to contradict yourself. You told me that people who refuse to go with the leader are told to leave and alleged criminals simply disappear, and then say that the Hopi never ostracize people and simply convince them to come around to your way of thinking?
When comparing cultural differences, you kinda have to point out what is actually different, and some times those differences may sound bad for one or the other. That happens when you compare things. You want to blame me for talking about the differences that make western society look bad rather than realizing that how these things are handled may be the actual problem here, not me talking about them. I am not making Hopi culture sound bad enough for you? Is that the problem here?
That is not a contradiction to not ostracize people and having a secret society exist within that society that handles issues in a " non socially acceptable manner". Focusing on the exception, and not the rule does not change how the society functions. For most everything in daily life, yes reason IS used, someone disappearing in the night that had just killed someone to day before, well that is definitely what most would consider an exception. such things were extremely rare, unlike in the US where people are killed all the time. This was something that maybe happened like once or twice in like a 20 year period, not common at all, so no that is not what one would consider contradictory.
when comparing cultural differences, you kinda have to point out what is actually different, and some times those differences may sound bad for one or the other.
That is not a contradiction to not ostracize people and having a secret society exist within that society that handles issues in a " non socially acceptable manner". Focusing on the exception, and not the rule does not change how the society functions. For most everything in daily life, yes reason IS used, someone disappearing in the night that had just killed someone to day before, well that is definitely what most would consider an exception. such things were extremely rare, unlike in the US where people are killed all the time. This was something that maybe happened like once or twice in like a 20 year period, not common at all, so no that is not what one would consider contradictory.
Then how is that a flaw? You sound like the people who post their OCs on Deviant Art "He's really handsome and a great fighter and the smartest person the world's ever seen, he's beat all his classmates and all the girls like him but OH he's clumsy sometimes so he's not all perfect you know?"
This is why so many people are not taking you at your word. Because despite claiming you're not trying to make this society to be perfect or even better, EVERYTHING you've actually stated suggests otherwise. You did it in this very post when you said "Unlike America when people kill others all the time." (And hey, maybe think that might have something to do with the size of the respective societies? Like the Hopi are obviously much smaller than the entirety of America.) You can't do that and then claim you really like both societies just the same. It's like punching one person in the face every day and then claiming you like them as much as the guy you shower with gifts and compliments.
Yes, sometimes comparing cultures will reveal in the flaws in them. So why have your posts mainly only revealed (what you believe to be) flaws in Western society? Why no "The Hopi do this thing really backwards, unlike Western society which does it great." Deny favoritism all you want, but your actions speak well enough for themselves.
You want to blame me for talking about the differences that make western society look bad rather than realizing that how these things are handled may be the actual problem here, not me talking about them.
I am very much aware there are flaws in America culture. I would love to talk about them even - but I would much rather talk about them with someone who actually respects my culture over someone who seems hell-bent on making it the red-headed step-child to their own. I can't take your opinion as being anything but horribly biased - as demonizing American culture and idealizing the Hopi.
when comparing cultural differences, you kinda have to point out what is actually different, and some times those differences may sound bad for one or the other.
That is not a contradiction to not ostracize people and having a secret society exist within that society that handles issues in a " non socially acceptable manner". Focusing on the exception, and not the rule does not change how the society functions. For most everything in daily life, yes reason IS used, someone disappearing in the night that had just killed someone to day before, well that is definitely what most would consider an exception. such things were extremely rare, unlike in the US where people are killed all the time. This was something that maybe happened like once or twice in like a 20 year period, not common at all, so no that is not what one would consider contradictory.
Then how is that a flaw? You sound like the people who post their OCs on Deviant Art "He's really handsome and a great fighter and the smartest person the world's ever seen, he's beat all his classmates and all the girls like him but OH he's clumsy sometimes so he's not all perfect you know?"
This is why so many people are not taking you at your word. Because despite claiming you're not trying to make this society to be perfect or even better, EVERYTHING you've actually stated suggests otherwise. You did it in this very post when you said "Unlike America when people kill others all the time." (And hey, maybe think that might have something to do with the size of the respective societies? Like the Hopi are obviously much smaller than the entirety of America.) You can't do that and then claim you really like both societies just the same. It's like punching one person in the face every day and then claiming you like them as much as the guy who shower with gifts and compliments.
Yes, sometimes comparing cultures will reveal in the flaws in them. So why have your posts mainly only revealed (what you believe to be) flaws in Western society? Why no "The Hopi do this thing really backwards, unlike Western society which does it great." Deny favoritism all you want, but your actions speak well enough for themselves.
So what you are saying is you want to blame me for talking about the differences that make western society look bad rather than realizing that how these things are handled may be the actual problem here, not me talking about them. I am not making Hopi culture sound bad enough for you? Is that the problem here?
No, the size is definitely not the issue as to why they are killing people all the time. Even the small colonies had this issue, it is the culture itself. Yes, I am comparing them, and that is what you do when you compare them. You just do not like what is being compared and want me to say more bad things about Hopi culture to make you feel better or something.
Why would I not have favoritism towards my own culture? Most people do. I would not sit there and expect you to try to think of all the bad things you can about your culture, I would expect you to have favoritism towards your own culture. I would not however, attempt to hide or ignore the issues about my culture that should be improved if you brought them up or condemn you for discussing them as you are about me bringing up how these things compare to other cultures.
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