IGDA Investigating L.A. Noire Dev

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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vansau said:
IGDA Investigating L.A. Noire Dev
Nothing cranks out emergencies quite like poor planning.

Somewhere along the line, a few more "no ways" were necessary. "Can you do the job with this small a crew?" No way. "If your crew is this size, can you get it done by X date?" No way. "Are you really going to try a project like this without having a clearer, better paced schedule laid out?" No way.

Instead, it seems like the project (and its leader) were all velocity, no vector.
 

Lunar Shadow

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Dec 9, 2008
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Sober Thal said:
It sounds like they are saying = I decided to work overtime because I didn't want to get yelled at.

Cry me a river. If people were fired for deciding not to work overtime, and they have nothing in a contract clearly stating overtime pay/hours, then I could be sympathetic. But because you would be yelled at, or received an 'evil eye'!?

Grow up!!!!!
Did you notice where it said they were not being paid overtime?
 

Pompey71

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May 31, 2009
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I do think there are conditions that are BAD, but if you warrant being shouted at because you're cocking around or not doing work, then the manager is there TO shout at you! He or she needs to ensure they get the best out of you so that all the OTHER employees still have a job. Each manager is in charge of their own section and if theirs fail, he or she may get fired and the people that work for him or her will also be at risk. It's not ALWAYS that they are heartless. Our manager shouts at us across the office but we take it on the chin because we mostly deserve it at the time. It's not like she shouts at random with no reason--- I don't think ANYONE shouts who doesnt have to!
 

Actual

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Sober Thal said:
It sounds like they are saying = I decided to work overtime because I didn't want to get yelled at.

Cry me a river. If people were fired for deciding not to work overtime, and they have nothing in a contract clearly stating overtime pay/hours, then I could be sympathetic. But because you would be yelled at, or received an 'evil eye'!?

Grow up!!!!!
Well hold up, this is people's jobs. Would you gamble your job by refusing to do overtime when a product is not hitting time targets? You'd risk losing that job, in a very competitive industry, no guarantee you'll get another games dev job.

Management never needs to say "if you don't do overtime, you're fired" for people to know that it's the case.

Saying that, my company regularly works 12 hour days 7 days a week when we near release date. Half my team is finishing up a 12 hour shift right this second. (I'm on a different project.)
 

Blind Sight

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Wait, why would people who no longer work at the company remain anonymous if there were massive issues like this? Are their legal reasons behind it? I'm not a fan of accepting information from someone who doesn't even back it up with their own name.

Actual said:
Sober Thal said:
It sounds like they are saying = I decided to work overtime because I didn't want to get yelled at.

Cry me a river. If people were fired for deciding not to work overtime, and they have nothing in a contract clearly stating overtime pay/hours, then I could be sympathetic. But because you would be yelled at, or received an 'evil eye'!?

Grow up!!!!!
Well hold up, this is people's jobs. Would you gamble your job by refusing to do overtime when a product is not hitting time targets? You'd risk losing that job, in a very competitive industry, no guarantee you'll get another games dev job.

Management never needs to say "if you don't do overtime, you're fired" for people to know that it's the case.

Saying that, my company regularly works 12 hour days 7 days a week when we near release date. Half my team is finishing up a 12 hour shift right this second. (I'm on a different project.)
With my current job it was made pretty clear early on that you would have to commit to working there and that the hours would be insane some weeks. In the past three days I've worked 39 hours, but I expected it because we have a Canada Day deadline for delivery this week. I doubt that this scenario is any different, working on such a high stakes project comes with it. Now, I have no doubt that there was some issues with management and misuse of time (I don't even need the anonymous sources for that, in my experience any manager who hasn't worked a lower position job is usually terrible at managing resources and understanding the time required) but there could be some serious hyperbole going on here, I will believe nothing until the actual investigation results.
 

Tireseas_v1legacy

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Sep 28, 2009
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I would say much of it was bitching until I read this one:
Complaint: FIRINGS AND FURTHER WALKOUTS said:
?[In the space of three years], out of the 45 people that no longer worked at the studio, 11 were fired. Out of the 34 that actually decided to leave, 25 of those were coders, most of whom had no job to go to, since they decided that it was better to be unemployed than to be working there. I was one of those."
[Anonymous source]
Followed by:
Complaint:ONE PERSON said:
?[When one of my colleagues left], I inherited all their stuff to work with. And of course, once that happens, I'm quite unproductive for, like, a month, trying to figure out which way is up. That happened to me three or four times; I ended up inheriting four peoples' stuff."
A Rockstar executive producer was apparently shocked to discover a programmer was doing four people's jobs.
"But when I left, I handed all those four things on to somebody else, and they hired some new people, and just kept going. If they'd maintained their talent, they'd operate a lot more efficiently, and it wouldn't have taken them so long."
[Anonymous source]
When you would rather be unemployed than deal with the project manager, that's a sign of serious problems with the company.
 

LordSphinx

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Apr 14, 2009
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The thing is, the IGDA never did anything good. They just make a few public statements here and there and that's it. They are, quite literally, a scam. Don't believe me? Well here's a fact that might make you reconsider: Tim Langdell (the guy that was a professional legal troll with the Edge trademark) was among the board of Directors for a long time. That association just gather the membershi money and do absolutely nothing with it, while the ESA does the job of defending the developers and the industry in courts. I resigned my membership when I realized how spineless they were.

I know that waiting for the IGDA to do something is delusive. So I chose to start my own studio because I seriously think I can make a difference. And I invite anyone else who think they can to do the same. I had to actually convince one of my programmers to NOT do overtime, because I don't want my team to think that way. We have to go to that length if we want to turn the wheel someday.

And for anyone here saying that crunch time is normal or that it's necessary to get a good product: you couldn't be more wrong. It might be a gross generalization, but I think that most game developers are stunted teenagers. Adults want a family and responsibilities that extend beyond making toys. When that kind of maturity kicks in, most of them leave this industry to get a life. If more mature adults were to stay in this industry, we'd get more products with meaning and artistic merit. As of now, most game developers retire from that field and never come back after 5 years in average. With a clear lack of experience, it's quite easy to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
 

cerebus23

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May 16, 2010
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This is common in the games industry however, especially when a deadline is looming for a game, gabe newell talked about it at valve and voicing some concern over the fact weither they are developer hard deadlines or in house softer deadlines, employees will be there more than 8 hours a day.

Heck i worked in advertising, where you got constant deadlines and usually 3 or 4 deadlines or more at the same time at a smaller companies especially, you will have people putting in 10 11 hour days to get something done that has to be done at a specific time, if you are falling behind or need to catch up because in advertising dead lines are absolute 80% of the time.

Heck i guess i should have been complaining fact i was salaried and putting in 9am to 6 to 9 pm on occasion and never got payed for my overtime at all.

Stuff happens when you get hard deadlines is the bottom line, employees often decide how long they work or if they want to work at all, i do not knon many bosses or companies that would order you to stay 10 11 hours a day, but i have put in over 10 hour shifts on occasion, not because i was payed to be there, or because i was told i had to, but i knew my work had to get done.

They really need to branch out if now things that are common in advertising and other professions, are suddenly bad management, or horrible work conditions for the games industry.

But on the bad side games that now take 4 to 5 years will take 6 to 8 years if they can only work 8 hours period. They could very well not impose any deadlines at all and then alot of the rush hurry to get everything done and checked and out to deadline goes away.

But on the other hand games are tons of money invested. I have worked on a few big accounts in the ad field, big ad budgets can run in the millions or 10s of millions, but games are like 30 mil to well look at tor 500 million on that game. The amount of money is staggering, now take all that take the deadline out games drag out longer to make cost more in resources.

There has to be a happy medium especially for artists and the like and lets face it there are a ton of artists in game development. Artists need a certain amount of direction, else they will get too ambitious for their own good, or spend too much time checking and double and triple checking, and tweaking this and that.

And lets not even mention duke nuke em forever, the game that was in some sort of development over the course of 15 years. I think a games industry without deadlines that lead to people working overtime, would be a disaster.

I think the only thing the igda should look at is people stayed because they wanted to and maybe were encouraged by management to do so, or if on the other hand their bosses were telling people you have to work 10 12 hours tonite because...

Then you can suggest that maybe games developers, do 3 8 hour shifts, people having to come in to work on a station that is occupied there is less people hanging around and your working around the clock that way wo people being on overtime or forced into any 10+ hour marathons.

Employees that worked "obsessive" hours, should get payed for their time.

BUt this is not a thing that is only about game developers.
 

NightlyNews

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Mar 25, 2011
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Anyone else seeing a connection between this and early movie making.

There were claims of people working every waking second and even dying in Hollywood for several years before the medium started getting it's act together and realizing that abusing it's creators wasn't the healthiest way to create art.

Oh god how come all entertainment businesses seem to be isolated sections of hell in the real world.
 

samsonguy920

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Mar 24, 2009
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This isn't sounding so much an issue for the IGDA as it is more for the State Labor Board if those above Mr. Yellalot do nothing.
Yelling at people repeatedly in the workplace among coworkers is harassment, and can be considered the same as sexual harassment when it creates an atmosphere of intimidation. Penalties can go up to the criminal level if they aren't dealt with soon enough.
Don't report to the IGDA as that will result in nothing. Call your state office and research your options.
 

Joshica Huracane

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Feb 21, 2011
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This makes me sad. Not only because the development team deserve better, but it's the first Australian developer to hit it big with a triple A title (as far as I'm aware), and it was a really enjoyable game...
 

tkioz

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May 7, 2009
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Even with "WorkChoices" in place in Australia stuff like this is seriously looked, so if I was this company I wouldn't be too worried about IGDA, I'd be more worried about what more local forces have to say.
 

mikev7.0

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tkioz said:
Even with "WorkChoices" in place in Australia stuff like this is seriously looked, so if I was this company I wouldn't be too worried about IGDA, I'd be more worried about what more local forces have to say.
Could you explain this a bit more please? I don't know what you're saying. What kind of local forces? Do you mean labor unions? (Sorry I am not familiar with Australian employment law.)

OT: In my opinion, we as gamers, should do what we can to maybe not be slavering for the next big release, also if workers can somehow anonymously get word out, we can pull support from sweat shop games the same way we do (well some of us) from sweat shop products, and I don't care what game it is, I would. People are not slaves. Well at least people don't want to be constantly reminded that we're treated that way a lot.
 

MrJoyless

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May 26, 2010
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Ok as a small business employer I have some insight into this hostile work environment, no my experience is with all hourly non salary employees who get OT if they break 40 but I myself have been a salary employee who had the eye opening revelation...if they arent paying you hourly then you have to fucking stay till the job is done...period.

Now I can understand why these employees are complaining, many I assume, did not realize what level of work beyond the 40 hour work week they would have to put in, but even I know that game developing is LOTS of long days and im not in the business (tho i visit gaming websites like this one often). You all have to realize if these people were not hourly (im assuming they were not because otherwise its a MASSIVE federal and state violation to not pay OT) and as such they signed a contract that is similar to every salary job ive ever had.

What im getting at is all these complainers must have known what they were getting in to before day 1. Granted some of the extremes in complaints that I saw are kind of crazy but thats just bad management and most of all, if these people were tolerating this kind of behavior they were either A. Unable to find a different job or B. Complacent in informing their bosses superiors of his behavior (yes that could have meant letting the publishing company know of all of the unstable management actions if need be).

Also I call BS on the programmer working 15 hour days for 3 weeks in a row, I know computer programmers and every one of them, even the good ones, do the half on half off work day where they take "coding breaks", oh to see that "hard working" employees browser history.
 

tkioz

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May 7, 2009
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mikev7.0 said:
tkioz said:
Even with "WorkChoices" in place in Australia stuff like this is seriously looked, so if I was this company I wouldn't be too worried about IGDA, I'd be more worried about what more local forces have to say.
Could you explain this a bit more please? I don't know what you're saying. What kind of local forces? Do you mean labor unions? (Sorry I am not familiar with Australian employment law.)
As far as I know there is no game developers union in Australia, there are umbrella unions that might cover them, but I don't really know how active they are, and how many developers are even members. IT has always been fairly under represented in unions, most joining the union of the sector they are supporting (example guy working IT in a hospital joins a Health Support Staff union, etc), this has benefits, but unfortunately it also leaves "pure IT" such as game developers out on their own.

What I was mainly talking about was WorkSafe (well it's called that in Victoria, I'm honestly not sure if it's a national body or if it goes under a different name in NSW, been a while since I had to deal with them), there are serious penalties for placing your employees health at risk, and that include mental health. I don't know about you but 110 hour work weeks scream HEALTH RISK at me.

There are also the new "Work Place Bullying" laws that have been put in place, IANAL but I think they don't make a distinction between whole is doing the bullying, co-worker or boss, and treating your employees like that (the public temper tantrums from the article) is bullying.

And finally there issue of unpaid overtime, now it's been a while since I've dealt with that, and my experience if with jobs under awards (honestly don't know what you call them overseas, an award basically sets out that a person doing X must be paid Y and have Z benefits), but they can be made to pay any unpaid overtime and fined for not doing so off their own bat.

So yes, an investigation by an international game developers alliance should be very low down on the list of things this company needs to be worrying about. Frankly if even half the stuff in that article is true and can be proven, that boss should be shitting his pants.
 

kloiberin_time

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Jan 27, 2011
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If you look at movies in the '20s you will notice a lot of similarities. The studio had all the control and the cast and crew were asked to work unreasonable hours with little to no overtime. Anyone that complained was easily replaced or traded to another project with no say in the matter.

While this sucks for the people involved it is actually a step in the growth of the Video Game industry.

There are many parallels between games and movies, the main difference is how fast the video game industry is growing and changing.
 

Callate

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Am I a terrible person that the first thought that came to mind was "I hope this doesn't delay the PC version"? (Yeah, probably.)

Given all the open letters from "widows" and the like we've been seeing, I think we'd have to acknowledge that this isn't exactly a new problem. But it's one that's not likely to get better, and may get worse. Video game developers are trying to get games out in the same time-frames with bigger budgets and bigger staffs but only very incrementally higher sales prices on their games. It's only going to get worse with the next generation of games console hardware. Something has to give.

This is not to say that McNamara being a screaming rage ball, if the allegations are true, is acceptable or reasonable behavior for a manager. The long work hours and high-stress environments, though, may become par for the course.
 

Turtleboy1017

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Nov 16, 2008
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TsunamiWombat said:
Crunch time is an accepted part of the life for alot of these developers, the issue here is when extreme crunchtime is taken that much further, to the point it physically harms the health of the employee.

If 110 hr weeks is accurate thats more then 12 hours a day 7 days a week. Infact it's nearly 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, or an utterly impossible 22 hr days 5 days a week.

16 hour days means you work, go home, sleep for 5-6ish hours,wake up, go back to work, with no time for interaction with your family or eating in the middle.
Sounds kind of like what my dad did when he opened his first restaurant. He was out of the house by 7, came home 11 earliest, midnight usually, sometimes 1, then grab 5-6 hours of sleep if he was lucky. He did that for 2 years.

Although I agree that working conditions like these are not something that should be promoted, the developers must have known that something like this was expected. And I hate to say it like this, but if they are anything like the Yearbook team at my old high school, they should have done more work more diligently when they had the time, rather than all suffer at the very end because they had too much left to do.

To clarify, I remember having a few friends in charge of the yearbook that literally spent the last week before the book was released at school, every night, working their asses off. It was kind of funny, because during the year all they did was dick around and not get shit done.