His philosophical point was "we're all morons, at least I'm willing to admit it".stinkychops said:
Besides, bragging would be what those who thought they knew everything would do.
Ignorance and you!
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Besides, bragging would be what those who thought they knew everything would do.
Wanting to learn everything that is put in front of you isn't wise. Garbage in, garbage out as is said in computer science. I don't want to learn about all of the teachings of Scientology or something like that.
I think that it is important to be interested in things. Whether you watch the news or research something obscure that only you and few other people in the world care about. There are some things that it might be useful for everyone to be more interested in like the way the financial world works as so many people are the victims of it. Not everyone can do anything about some complicated political problem in a far off country even if it is important.
Ignorance is mainly a problem when the the people who don't know much or understand poorly group together to shout down the people who have something like a clue. That happens a lot, especially with groups of young people as they are more ignorant due to not having as much knowledge and experience but they are more passionate.
I think that it is important to be interested in things. Whether you watch the news or research something obscure that only you and few other people in the world care about. There are some things that it might be useful for everyone to be more interested in like the way the financial world works as so many people are the victims of it. Not everyone can do anything about some complicated political problem in a far off country even if it is important.
Ignorance is mainly a problem when the the people who don't know much or understand poorly group together to shout down the people who have something like a clue. That happens a lot, especially with groups of young people as they are more ignorant due to not having as much knowledge and experience but they are more passionate.
Knowing how something works doesn't necessarily mean that you've accepted it as your own. I understand your point, but wouldn't attempting to understand the way Scientology works at least give you a semblance on understanding the way a scientologist's mind works? You would actually be able to defend your own beliefs that much better if you already knew the argument they were going to throw at you. I'm not picking on scientology really, more of just running with your example.More Fun To Compute said:
Now, this isn't exactly taken in context but it still applies, and don't take offense to the word enemy please. "Know your enemy better then they know themselves." (paraphrased, i know.) How can your enemy (or in this case, the individual arguing a contrary point to your own) combat you in a discussion with wit if you know their own argument inside and out? Has knowing their argument hurt you in any way? Or has it in fact strengthened your own resolve in your beliefs? *shrug* just something to think about.
Also, speaking on computer science, if you're dealing with a programming language, wouldn't you need to know what doesn't work, just as much as what does work in order to easily catch common typos? Considering there's generally more then one way to execute the same program. You can either do it the efficient way, or the convoluted way, knowing which to use and which not to use will lead to a better finished product.
Knowing that Scientology exists and having an idea of their methods could be useful and you certainly want some good people in society who know about that. Going through a Scientology indoctrination program and trying your best to understand and believe it isn't. Thinking you can go through that and only gain valuable academic knowledge without it changing you for the worse is probably as arrogant as thinking that they are completely beneath your attention.Borrowed Time said:
That's what I was trying to say, anyway.
"Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time." - Sun Tzu
Sometimes it's worth looking at a list of common mistakes but normally you remember what things that should work look like if it doesn't look right you look more closely. Is that what you mean?
If we want to see something, that's how we are going to see it. As far as we are concerned we are infailable and always right not matter what and anyone who has different views is not only wrong but simply ludicrous to even think about. As a species we are fundamentally insane, always determined to see the world through ONE way and to never ever break free. Yes of course there are acceptions, some religious people have become athiests, some PS3 owners have gone over to the divine light of Xbox 360 (hah see what I did there) but as a whole we as a population are set on one path and are determined to remain ignorant no matter what the subject is.
I have a prime example, I know this determined Creationist that I used to work with in my first job who was very uncomfortable with my athiesm and set out to prove that the world was created. He gave me one argument that we never found the transitional forms in the fossil record, I meantioned Archeopterix, Australopithicus Afernsis and Tictalic (not wishing to berate his religious belief but I too felt that I had to defend my position) but he went one step further and said that there was no transitional forms in the real modern world. To which I mentioned the Shark mixed with stingray called a Banjo Shark:
But when he saw the picture, even after seeing them in the aquarium he said he saw no correlation between sharks and rays. I mean I respect his religious beleif but it's proof that when it comes down to it we beleive what we want and nothing can change that.
I have a prime example, I know this determined Creationist that I used to work with in my first job who was very uncomfortable with my athiesm and set out to prove that the world was created. He gave me one argument that we never found the transitional forms in the fossil record, I meantioned Archeopterix, Australopithicus Afernsis and Tictalic (not wishing to berate his religious belief but I too felt that I had to defend my position) but he went one step further and said that there was no transitional forms in the real modern world. To which I mentioned the Shark mixed with stingray called a Banjo Shark:
But when he saw the picture, even after seeing them in the aquarium he said he saw no correlation between sharks and rays. I mean I respect his religious beleif but it's proof that when it comes down to it we beleive what we want and nothing can change that.
Ah, thank you for the exact quote, surprisingly my internet here at work is quite limited (yet i can get to the escapist site, such irony) and I don't have said information memorized. See a place where my own ignorance got the better of me. *grin* But yes I can see what you're saying there. I wasn't quite meaning taking the actual indoctrination course, more of studying it from afar, books, other individuals experiences and such. Yay for misunderstandings!More Fun To Compute said:
My brain is a knowledge sponge and i aim to leave it bloated 
If i find out about something i didnt know before I HAVE to find out more, until I'm at least conversant on the subject. Britain (can only speak for Britain as i live here not anywhere else) seems to have developed a working class disdain for anyone wanting to learn, whether its applying to universities or reading in their spare time. Dunno where its come from but it's a downward trend in education amongst the largest section of the population (the poor/working class) and it disturbs me. People are wandering around the world not grasping the concept that what you dont know CAN and WILL kill you, and the only way to combat that is to learn everything. The more knowledge you have stuffed in your head BEFORE you need it, the better off you will be when you have unexpectedness to deal with.
knowledge = power
refusing knowledge only gives power to other people.
If someone wants to hand power over their life to other people thats fine, they'd just better not come crying to me when civilisation collapses and they dont know how to make electricity, food, shelter, medecines, clean water etc.
If i find out about something i didnt know before I HAVE to find out more, until I'm at least conversant on the subject. Britain (can only speak for Britain as i live here not anywhere else) seems to have developed a working class disdain for anyone wanting to learn, whether its applying to universities or reading in their spare time. Dunno where its come from but it's a downward trend in education amongst the largest section of the population (the poor/working class) and it disturbs me. People are wandering around the world not grasping the concept that what you dont know CAN and WILL kill you, and the only way to combat that is to learn everything. The more knowledge you have stuffed in your head BEFORE you need it, the better off you will be when you have unexpectedness to deal with.
knowledge = power
refusing knowledge only gives power to other people.
If someone wants to hand power over their life to other people thats fine, they'd just better not come crying to me when civilisation collapses and they dont know how to make electricity, food, shelter, medecines, clean water etc.
Ignorance is bliss and some people love that bliss so much that they never want to be outside that little bliss bubble. For example when the financial break down occurred some people buried there heads in the sand, refused to except what was happening. But your theory on" a deeper seeded issue of a breakdown of culture and cohesiveness in societies" has weight. Literary critics specifically Theodor Adorno believe that ignorance is growing because people take up there free time with nothing. Nothing for him is something which inherently doesn?t teach you anything new or expose you to a new experience, for example he hated pop music, TV and I?m fairly sure he would hate video games. They keep us "trapped" in ignorance taking up our time, so maybe Adorno is right and the fact we have growing ignorance is because of main stream media taking up our time to learn.Borrowed Time said:My workplace, being the philosophical cesspool it is, throws up these little quote's each day in the front entry. Today's is "Being ignorant is not so much a shame as being unwilling to learn." Which, unfortunately, got me thinking (or at least attempting to), because there's really nothing better to do here besides think, and stare at random objects. Why are so many people completely content with being ignorant and refuse to better themselves in areas that they know little in. I understand that everyone has their own niches and interests, but it's truly scary just how often I meet individuals who care about little to nothing in the day to day world besides what directly affects them in their own little bubble.
It is true that no one person can ever truly grasp or let alone know everything, even though there are some who claim as such (no naming names :cough
Which leads me to yet a second point. All too often I speak to my peers and the topic of "common sense" arises and quite commonly the classic cliche joke of "common sense isn't so common anymore." rears its ugly head. (four "commons" in one sentence, that had to break some universal grammar law somewhere) I've been just as guilty of said joke and could probably be lumped in with the point I'm about to make. Why do people so often assume that they themselves aren't part of the problem? If common sense is not so common anymore, who are we to judge that we're somehow excluded from that very rule (and rule is a word I use loosely in this situation)?
This mentality reminds me a lot of the friend in a group who never gets to hear their own posse talk about who the stupid one is of them because said posse is infact talking behind their back because they are the one they are all talking about.
Now, I know that I'm just a simple person who has a hard time wrapping his mind around a lot of psychology babble, etc., but I was curious what the Escapists views on these subjects were. Since, you know, this forum is the end all, be all of truth! Also, please, limit the flaming/insulting to peoples opinions. If you disagree with something someone (myself) has said, by all means express it, but be civil.
Why wouldn't you pick on Scientology? It's actually an interesting study in the early stages of a religion. And with all the dirt that Anonymous has dug up on them...Borrowed Time said:
As for the OP: I have nothing to add that has not been said. Ignorance is Bliss because life and knowledge are pain.
Or so I quote Unreal Tournament.
What you don't know can't hurt you. Except when it can. That's where the disdain towards the pursuit knowledge comes from, I think. It's like when some annoying person can still annoy you even when you ignore him completely. It's just not fair!Sparrow Tag said:
I don't know and I don't care. That's how I mostly live my life. I don't want to think about the troubles of the world because my knowledge of them does nothing to solve them. Then again I know bugger all about this psychological stuff because knowledge of it would have no practical benefit in my life.
I was just saying that it pays to know both the good and the bad. Being able to recognize something from two angles is always more informative and will lead to faster results then only one.More Fun To Compute said:
My comment about not picking on scientology was more along the lines that I wasn't singling scientology out specifically as the only religion that you should research, just that since the quoted poster was my reference point, I'd keep with using Scientology as the example.koeryn said:
That's more or less my point in so many words. Willful ignorance is nothing to be prideful, arrogant or in more or less terms, happy about. It can very easily lead to destruction in a worst case situation, or just a bit of discomfort if you're lucky. A lot of people could save themselves a world of trouble if they just sat down and read a book outside of their bubble now and again, or bothered to actually read up on a subject that they had previously no interest in or clue about.Yankmy Armoff said:
BTW, sorry about the length of time between my replies, had to head home from work.
To the OP: You're over thinking it.
Human's are fundamentally greedy.
I mean the fact that you exist means that you are using up X amount of particles which no one else can have and that someone else might have gone and cured cancer unlike your lazy self.
*old man talk* BASTARDS!!! COME BACK HERE YOU WHIPPERSNAPPER!!!!!
Human's are fundamentally greedy.
I mean the fact that you exist means that you are using up X amount of particles which no one else can have and that someone else might have gone and cured cancer unlike your lazy self.
*old man talk* BASTARDS!!! COME BACK HERE YOU WHIPPERSNAPPER!!!!!
To our modern ears and perhaps with something lost in translation, it might sound like bragging, but at the time, I imagine he simply meant it to be an earth-shattering philosophical statement.stinkychops said:
Damnit, and now by typing your reply, you stole some of my interwebs! I want them back!mrpenguinismyhomeboy said:
So anyway, to exist in and of itself is to be greedy? I guess that depends on what your definition of greedy is. Considering if that's the case, then every single organism on this planet is greedy. Yes, instinct calls for everyone/thing to proliferate and pass down its own genetic code, but nature generally exists in a balanced state, not a greedy state (unless you're counting California, er wait). Now, we as humans possess the capacity to be greedy, but is that based upon our desire to exist? If you're limiting that statement to only humans, what is it that distinguishes us to the point where that idea only applies to us? Is it our sense of self-awareness? If that were the case then Elephants (which have proven to be self-aware would be greedy as well. Or is it that we have this "ability" of which we so arrogantly call "higher thought"?
And let me have my over-thinking! It's the only type thinking I tend to get. *grumbles in the corner*
Ah ha good sir. Excellent Reply, but, I must lay on to thus: What if there is no such thing as "greedy"? What if "greedy" is just some made up term by us that no other animal experiences? I will admit, that my argument is a little too basic to continue to back up, because as you just said, is our pure existence greedy? Or is it something much more? As you have continued to diligently point out, if existence itself is greedy, then isn't everything, conscious or not, greedy? Well, the question I present to you, is thus: Does a person/animal/object have to know it's being greedy in order to be such? Can one be greedy without knowing that they are in question exhibiting behavioral traits which one could call greedy? Is greed an innate function of all matter, and we have just been the first to characterize it?Borrowed Time said:
Of course, I am being silly. A rock cannot be greedy. It knows no such thing. Thus good sir, I will admit defeat to you. It was a noble battle, and I do look forward to having such academic encounters in the future. Who knows? Maybe next we will discuss a more scientific route, perhaps quantum physics? Or maybe we will discuss the complex questions of arrangement offered by the school of knowledge that is topology? Only time will tell, but for now, I leave you with a tip of the hat, and good day.
/end British talk.
That was fun.
Ok, you're going on my friends list, that was just way too much fun! Thank you for bringing intelligent debate instead of the (oh the irony!) "who cares" approach. This is exactly what I was hoping for. You can never sharpen your sword unless you use it against an abrasive object.mrpenguinismyhomeboy said:
Anyway, OT-
It depends on how far we take personification. We humans have a tendency to take our own faults, beliefs and characteristics and apply them to inanimate objects. Case in point, the sheer number of individuals who will get mad at a table leg when they stub their toe against it, unreasonably thinking even for a split second, that the hunk of dead wood intended to do them harm.
In the same way, you could even go down to a atomic level and say an ion or such would be "greedy" because it has obtained or is trying to obtain more electrons then its neighbors. Yet again, an example of personification. The atom has no consciousness, and therefore has no basis for being greedy.
Webster's II New Reverside Dictionary - Revised Edition: Greedy (adj.) - Excessively eager to acquire or possess something, especially in quantity.
So according to the accepted universal definition of greedy then, it's an inherently human trait, meaning it's a choice by us to be so. We as human beings have "free will", meaning we are able to bypass our instinct.
Er, there I go again, I'm just gonna shutup now. I was having so much fun though! *pouts* Was a fine battle good sir! I salute you for your show of wit and undeniable charm! *salute* (don't ask me where the charm comment came from, it just sounded good.)