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Hey Joe

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Dec 23, 2007
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Something's been bothering me for a great while fellow Escapists. In short, it's the treatment that GTAIV has gotten from certain quarters of the gaming community, and even on here.

GTAIV was a game that had great multiplayer, compelling characters and story lines that got to the heart of the American Dream, while simultaneously deconstructing it. It was a game that was unafraid to show the consequences of your actions while you could still have fun plowing through pedestrians.

It was a game that drew you into the world by presenting NPC interaction outside of the cut scene dynamic in order for you to feel attached to the characters and their stories.

But some people feel that GTAIV is not deserving of the lofty praise it received, citing the lack of 'zany antics' as a deal-breaker. They said the NPC interactions were boring, when though the conversations with them on the ride to venues gave the player juicy background on the characters.

The story of Dwayne Forge comes to mind, as your relationship with him slowly builds he starts to reveal his troubled childhood from an abusive family. When you think you can't take any more of the stark realities the man went through, along comes Niko to put it all into perspective.

"When I grew up, for 12 years we didn't have any clean water or electricity".

It's a poignant moment of a supposedly pointless excursion. Still though, people want their 'zany antics'. They can keep them as far as I'm concerned, as GTAIV is something of a ground breaker in the medium.

It's a blockbuster with brains, and should be what game developers should be looking at as a blueprint for years to come.

Yet, after the initial praise it received a couple of dissenting voices came to the fore. They would say things like "This is totally ghey, why do I have to take them on trips?" and "Where's my jet-pack?".

It's a sad day for us all when gamers will start to pass up an intelligent and poignant experience for a jet-pack. As time wore on, the voices started to grow louder but with no fresh arguments to back it up.

The forums were littered with comments like "I was dissapointed with GTAIV" or "GTAIV sux!" without offering any thorough or additional evidence to back up their erstwhile claims. So why did these comments persist?

Could it be that people just wanted to be rebels, spurned on by Yahtzee who is paid to tear games apart while making dick jokes? Could it be, that people wanted to against the universal praise just to stand out? Did they want to be the black sheep to draw attention, using Yahtzee as some sort of enabler?

I'm not saying for one damned second that GTAIV had no drawbacks. But a sane, rational and thorough examination of the game will give a heck of a lot more positives than negatives. I can not, for the life of me see how more negatives can be drawn than positives, but yet an element of dissenting voices persist on their attacks.

I don't want to sound like a fan boy, but this points to a disturbing wider trend within the gaming community.

There seems to be a trend where people will say they don't like something because everybody else does. They somehow seem to think that by offering up a thin counterpoint to the consensus that they are somehow elevated into a unique position of 'going upstream'.

Do they think they are somehow intelligent for ignoring the obvious and harping on about the obscure? These are the sort of people who will refuse a banana split because they don't like the colour of the dish.

The ironic thing is that these people will call the people who actually like the game "ignorant" for actually liking the game. Heaven forbid we should enjoy something! Are we ignorant for liking the smell of flowers? Are we ignorant for enjoying Dostoevsky?

I do not advocate simply 'going with the herd' for anything. You have to make a well informed and researched decision before you start to head off in any particular direction. If they'ew opposite from my direction, fine, all the power to you.

What really gets my goat though is people who will nitpick. The people who will pick one aspect that they don't like and ignore the weight of positives before coming to the conclusion that this 'simply isn't a good game' just for the sake of being different, perhaps noticed and if all the planets align validated as someone agrees with them and will discuss how ignorant the rest of us all are for having the gall to 'like' something.


It's like trying to paint broad strokes with a thimble of paint.

============================================================================================

The above criticism was me just trying to get my frustrations out in a somewhat constructive fashion. I apologise if I step on any toes but I feel it's something that needs to be said. I have not named any names, and if you feel you've been singled out I apologise.

If you respond to the post, please do so in a measured, well thought-out way that will not inflame, but inform (Yes, I realise my post smacked of exasperation). The Escapist is the centre of intelligent debate in the gaming community, let's keep it that way.
 

Jumplion

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Mar 10, 2008
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I'll be first to say, if you liked GTA4 then that's your opinion and be happy about it.

I for one did not like GTA4 as much as I thought I would, what with all the 10s being splurged around the place.

For me it's a number of reasons:

1. Niko is completely bipolar, with one moment him yelling at his gay friend that he could get caught having some "fun" on a boat, and the next Niko agreeing to go and murder a rival gang or something. It really annoyed me.

2. The lack of actual fun weapons, or weapons in general. It basically boiled down to this; 1st weapon -> Better version of the weapon -> RPG. There wasn't any dildos, or katanas, or flamethrowers, or any of that fun stuff.

3. I personaly think the realism it was trying to achieve pretty much killed it, Yahtzee explains it well I guess. The driving, while being realistic, felt completely sluggish and muddy. Since it was based off realism, no more fun cars like a hovercraft or an icecream truck, no crazy cheats to run wild with.

4. That damn cousin!

THere are some more complaints I would list, but I won't anyway.

But like I said, if you enjoyed the game then you shouldn't be bothered by anyone else's opinion about it. For me, GTA4 was not as fun as so many of the critics praised it for and that's just that.
 

Logan Westbrook

Transform, Roll Out, Etc
Feb 21, 2008
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I've said it once, and apparently, I'm saying it again:

nilcypher said:
(ok, here's my effort)

Hype, like many four letter words, carries a lot of negative connotations. Hype suggests that a product might not be as good as we have been lead to believe. Hype suggests that we are being lied to. Hype puts games on pedestals, creating fantasies that the reality often struggles to live up to. This was never going to bode well for Grand Theft Auto 4, as it is possibly the most hyped game in existence. In the eyes of many gamers, Grand Theft Auto 4 is some sort of holy treasure, like the Grail or the knucklebone of a saint. Most gamers seem to be asking themselves what they love most about GTA4 when the real question they should be asking is whether the game deserves such adulation. A worrying number of reviewers have thrown perfect scores at the game and if I hadn?t been honest with myself, I suppose I might have joined them.

I?m not immune to hype and it?s a horrible feeling to have excitement turn to disappointment. I wanted to love this game; I queued up at midnight with my pre-order ticket in my hand hoping it would be everything people claimed it would. In the cold light of day, however, I only like this game, and after such high expectations, I?m not sure that that?s enough.

It?s hard to put your finger on exactly what?s wrong with the game; it?s certainly nothing overt, but as they say, the devil?s in the details. Rockstar North have created a sandbox without equal. Liberty City is a living, breathing place with sweeping urban vistas, glass monoliths that touch the clouds and quick flowing rivers of traffic, but the populous is jarringly low-res and driving isn?t as much fun as it used to be; the cars don?t handle well and are too eager to throw you through the windscreen at the slightest bump. The combat is much more sophisticated and deadly but now every shoot-out is a major engagement with a laboured and tedious pace and it?s all too easy to be gunned down by some nameless ?gangsta? before you have a chance to react, forcing you to do the whole thing again. The characters are vibrant and rounded and the writing, freed from the constraints of the movie tributes of past games, has a depth and personality unprecedented in the Grand Theft Auto series; but each set of missions feels isolated and disjointed; the gameplay too nebulous and unfocused for the writing to really shine.

Like many things, the myth is often much more attractive than the reality. The myth of Grand Theft Auto 4 is that it is a flawless, peerless piece of video game art, a thing to be revered and venerated, the pinnacle of gaming to date. The truth is that GTA4 is a well made, if flawed, game that has strayed away from the gleeful escapism I enjoyed most about the series, and replaced it with something I don?t recognise anymore.
 

rossatdi

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Aug 27, 2008
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I agree with the OP. I thought it was a fantastic game. It had one or two problems, basically the dating/friend thing was completely unnecessary and I've not met a single person who enjoyed it.

I thought the story was great and has been in Vice City and San Andreas.

My only other complaint is that they may have sacrificed mission variety for realism a bit too much. I actually enjoyed the more realistic tint but one grows weary of the "kill the other guy in the car" mission.

The ending genuinely upset as I had taken Kate out a few times, just to try out the minigames, and had grown reasonably found of her. Obviously I kept it real so she got fragged, bastards.

Roman was fantastic, Brucie likewise and the Irish brothers, classic. It was some of the generic mafia guy stuff that let it down on occasion.
 

CoziestPigeon

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Oct 6, 2008
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You have a valid point OP, but really, what did most people expect from GTA? Random zany antics. What did GTA4 provide us with? A "realistic" game with boring "realistic" characters and "realistic" tasks. If I want realism, I'll actually go outside. I play a game like GTA to goof off. Which is why Saints Row 2 was awesome.
 

rossatdi

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Aug 27, 2008
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Realism is getting an unfair kicking at the moment. There is a different between boringly mundane and realistic.

Left 4 Dead is great fun because it feels like what being in a zombie apocalypse might be like. The realistic issues of running out of ammo, helping your friends, watching your back. It is not mundane.

GTA 4 had you blasting down Manhattan in a supercar chucking grenades out the window. It wasn't mundane but it certainly did a pretty good job of showing what would happen!

I hate 'zany' aspects crammed into games. No Counter Strike is not funny when you turn down the gravity. OK, it's funny for like 30 seconds. Don't get me wrong, I like a game with a sense of humour, but humour is more than Ben Stiller getting into a wacky situation and pulling a crazy face.

Earthworm Jim, that's funny. I never found the cardboard box thing in MGS funny, surely it just blows the immersion?
 

scarbunny

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Aug 11, 2008
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I think the game had great potential, however the developers reached beyond themselves.

Now the story could have been good, if it had been written by a proper screen writer, as it is it is crunky has far to much padding.

The characters may well have had great back stories but only if you can be bothered to go and complete bland mini-games over and over again. Personally I played 2 games once and got board.

Niko is one of my most hated main characters ever, plus his apparent split personality disorder really should have been addressed by a medical professional. One second I’m hearing him whine about "having done some bad shit" in the war and how terrible he feels about killing, the next he’s offering to "sort" some one out for a guy he only just meet, and only has a minor grudge with the intended.

My main gripe with the game comes from what it pretends it is, it seems to want to be a hard hitting work of art but fails so badly its painful sometimes. In my opinion it is pretentious it has taken all that the GTA games have been in the past, all the fun things, and decided its too good for the things that made the GTA games great.

I’m not particularly articulate as I am on the third day of a killer hangover so excuse any serious flaws in my grammar.
 

The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
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Reviewers of the game suffered from what's called 'series blindness' or the assumption that because is better than it was in the last game is good. Yes, the combat in GTAIV was better than any other GTA game, no, that doesn't make it good.

Aside from the stodgy combat the game was quite enthralling in my opinion.
 

L.B. Jeffries

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Nov 29, 2007
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Relax man, it's just the Four Month Bell Curve of video game life. First 3 months we gush and gush, then our endorphin receptors finally go numb and we start complaining about every little tiny flaw we can find. Then people get hooked on some new game and forget about it.

http://sexyvideogameland.blogspot.com/2008/08/four-month-bell-curve.html
 

Cousin_IT

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Feb 6, 2008
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I grew tired of GTAIVs inability to decide whether it wanted to be its zany self or a new neo-realism tale about criminal life. It tried to have its cake & eat it, with an interesting & far more "mundane" main story yet taking place in a city full of dick jokes. It had more realistic car mechanics, but still had the bullet spraying car chases that really dont work when ur so focused on not spinning out or clipping the pavement. It removed the more whacky missions previous GTA games had, but without them the whole game boils down between a) drive here & kill these guys b) drive here, chase these guys then kill them & c) drive here, stealll this car/object & just for larks, kill these guys. It certainly wasnt realistic (no, blowing away an entire SWAT squad then escaping over a rooftop is not realism). But it sure made the exceptional feel mundane at times.


With that said; its an alright game. Thats all though. Its not a narrative masterpiece. Its not ushering in a wave of neo-realism to games. It took a hollywood trend (grittier cop dramas) & made a game out of it, as the franchise always has done.
 

corporate_gamer

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Apr 17, 2008
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Mainly i disliked it because the realism was a massive departure from the series, and well i liked what they had done before more. I felt they changed the core game of mindless and funny violence to persue gritty realism and an emotional storyline. And yes it was realistic and yes i didn't end up killing that guy (And not only because Kate annoys me) but it wasn't in the fun spirit of GTA. Which is what i had expected and wanted and paid for.
 

PedroSteckecilo

Mexican Fugitive
Feb 7, 2008
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Personally I dislike the dichotomy more than anything. I LOVE the serious revenge story (currently working through GTAIV) but I really hate all the incidental crap you need to go through, why the fuck is BRUCIE in this game, I hate the ************. I also hate all the stupid drug dealing crap you need to go through, I want more dark revenge!

They seem to want it both ways and this annoys me whereas Saints Row is at least satisfied to be silly. GTAIV can't seem to get over itself, it wants to be gritty and realistic while retaining what they feel to be the best of the humor from the games. I think they should either go All Serious or All Rediculous, not both.
 

SargentToughie

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Jun 14, 2008
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I'm going to agree with the OP on certain aspects, but disagree with others.

while the NPCs did offer insight into Niko's character, and you did eventually get to feel for them (I could'nt bring myself to kill Dwayne), there were times where they were just plain annoing. Roman is a perfect example of this, every time that I get a call from him I wanted to gouge my ears out and cry in the corner. But that's no reason to absolutely despise a game, The OP said it perfectly when he said that simply nitpicking a good game and hating it because of a few little annoing quirks that can appear from time to time

Personally, I spent more time enjoying myself playing GTAIV then I did hating the game. It actually had a wide variety of minigames and side quests, as a pose to the other games in the series, which consisted of "Go here, shoot this, rinse, repeat. untill you beat the mission and move on to the next one, where you go here..." And GTAIV did have a lot of those missions, but they were more fun because you actually had to use tact and a little bit of pre-planning before you get filled full of holes.

That was what I liked the most, the run and gun stuff was out, replaced with a combat system that required a little bit of actuall use of your mind. And I repeat myself, I enjoyed the good parts of the game far more then I hated the bad parts of the game. Which is really all that matters. Because each and every game that's ever been created tries to master this equation. Because if you dislike the more frequent bad parts of a game more then you enjoy the fewer good parts to the game, then you won't enjoy it.

Simple, but true.
 

MurderousToaster

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Aug 9, 2008
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Well, GTAIV was brilliant while it lasted, but someone said "it will never get stale".
After I completed the game I had no wish to play singleplayer again. I'd completed all the missions and only screwing around with my friends in multiplayer had any real enjoyment.

The story was great and although not as zany as the others, we have Saint's Row 2 to fill in the nuttiness factor now, don't we?
 

Skarvey

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Sep 3, 2008
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I'm gonna jump out on a limb and wait to get kicked in the face by someone who disagrees with me but GTAIV was one of the best games I've ever played and anyone who disagrees with me is truly a shallow person. I mean, I've played the prior GTA games and they had their funny antics and zany characters, but didn't anyone notice that Rockstar was progressing towards a more serious game model? For years, Rockstar has been lambasted by the media and politicians for being a "killing simulator" and it got away with it because people loved the antics, so it had enough money to keep itself afloat amid the legal mud slinging. But with San Andreas, Rockstar began trying to distance itself from all the silliness. As a zany antics game, yes, it succeeded, but it was never taken all too seriously, which is part of the reason it managed to stay out of the AO rating zone. In San Andreas, we introduce the reluctant protagonist CJ. Sure, theres still crazy stuff, crazy characters, but CJ is the element of change for Rockstar. He's just out of prison, he wants to change his life, and he gets all these problems dumped in his lap by his old gang and old rival, the police chief. But of course, everyone ignored the fact that Rockstar had installed a clearly defined protagonist vs. antagonist structure because there was a freakin' jetpack. Now, we have GTAIV, and everyone's disappointed. Why is that? Because there's a good storyline? Because the characters are just crazy enough to make them realistic and therefore able to connect with emotionally? I'm not going to lie, I came into that game thinking I was going to hate Roman, but an hour into the game, he was not just an in-game mechanic for getting free taxi rides, he was as close to me as if he were my own cousin and THAT is Rockstar's true triumph. And to be fair, Saint's Row 2 has cornered the market on zaniness, so if you want it, you know where to get it. I mean, it seems like you people who bash GTAIV are just afraid of change, but just like Obama's election, change is good.
 

Anarchemitis

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Dec 23, 2007
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Truth is that there are two types of evaluation: playing a game and analyzing a game, not unlike the differences of deductive and inductive reasoning in Detectives work.
I'll suppose that Hey Joe Analyzes and Ben Croshaw plays and makes dick jokes.
 

The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
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Skarvey said:
I'm gonna jump out on a limb and wait to get kicked in the face by someone who disagrees with me but GTAIV was one of the best games I've ever played and anyone who disagrees with me is truly a shallow person.
Ironymon I choose you!
 

implodingMan

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Apr 9, 2008
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I posted something like this a while ago, and I agree with everything you said. There is a massive problem with the gaming community's mentality, where the established rule is that the "wackier" something is, the more enjoyment you get out of it. I disagree. I played Psychonauts (which everyone here loves) and it bored the hell out of me. I didn't even finish it. Honestly, the story was pretty interesting and if it was a pixar movie it could have been cool, but as a game it was just a tedious platformer with lousy mechanics.

Also, you never actually have to take people on the side quests. You have the option of hitting that "no" button every single time. The game does not penalize you in any way for doing this, so I really don't get what the problem was.
 

Bowstring

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May 30, 2008
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I personally hated the multiplayer solely due to the implementation of auto-aim. I know it can be turned off, but the host never does. It just seemed like such a killjoy.