I'm Tired of Faction Combat in MMOs

Soviet Heavy

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Or at least, I am fed up with it being in MMOs that are ostensibly story based. Just because World of Warcraft featured the Alliance and the Horde, doesn't mean that every MMO that comes out is obligated to make a faction system to accommodate PVP. My biggest issue with this kind of faction dross is when it is thrown into games set in an already established franchise. Case in point: Elder Scrolls Online and Star Wars: The Old Republic.

The major sticking point with the faction wars in these games particularly is that they are set in the past, and the future has already been laid out. Elder Scrolls is in the late 5th Century 2nd Era in the fallout of the Reman Dynasty, while TOR is in the centuries succeeding the events of the KOTOR franchise. However, these games are still prequels, and that puts a major strain on how much story can actually progress within these MMOs. We know that the Sith are going to be defeated, we know that Tiber Septim will unite Tamriel in the next few centuries. So any major changes in the storyline for both MMOs will be foregone.

This brings up a bevy of problems, not the least of which is the losing faction's players feeling cheated. Since the Light Side always wins in Star Wars, the Sith players can't really score a huge, galaxy changing victory without it being undone by the canon. Same is ESO, all of these factions are eventually going to fall apart in favor of the Septim Dynasty.

So how do the developers deal with this problem? By making everything static. Notice how even though apparently big things happen in the TOR storylines, they don't really do much to shake up the status quo. Sure, you might kill Vitiate in a late dungeon romp, but he's still alive thanks to force power copouts. If I could compare this problem to another franchise, let me bring up Warhammer 40000.

Back in the 90s and early 2000s, Games Workshop ran global campaigns, which would help dictate in universe events based upon how well different factions played. When players sent in their victories and statistics, they tallied them up and declared a winner. The biggest of these campaigns was the Eye of Terror, which would forever change the course of the franchise depending on the winner. If Chaos won, the Imperium would fracture, if the Imperium won, Chaos would be crippled permanently.

Chaos players beat the ever loving crap out of Imperial players, soundly winning the global campaign. The Imperial players promptly threw a hissy fit and stomped their feet until Games Workshop listened. Not wishing to alienate their largest player base (space marine players), the folks running the campaign quickly backpedaled, and came up with some lame excuses to lock the campaign in stasis, where neither side truly had the advantage. And ever since, the storyline in Warhammer 40000 has never moved forward. It is permanently locked in the middle of the Eye of Terror campaign.

I see the same thing happening with these MMOs. Without wanting to piss off half of their players, the only thing that the developers can do is widen these conflicts, rather than progress them. The news today that two new raids on Tython and Korriban for The Old Republic aren't going to accomplish anything apart from giving players a new warzone that never changes.
 

synobal

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Ya I hate factions as well. Let players make their own factions and fight over what they want to fight over. Too much structured pvp is a bad thing in my opinion.

Also having to choose a faction right at the start of a game is vastly annoying.

I blame WoW for the faction system, before their success it wasn't crazy popular.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Consequence of theme park MMOs more than "Faction systems" as a concept. Theme parks need to be locked to a large degree. You have content that costs quite a lot of money to create, you need it to be available. Having new content obliterate old content (as would be required for any kind of meaningful "evolving story" or changing game world) would be expensive and counter productive. At best you'll get the odd Cataclysm style expansion that shakes a few things up and puts a new hat on Malibu Stacy.

Alas Sandbox MMOs are extremely rare, and not getting any less rare for the forseeable future. And yeah, it's pretty much the fault of World of Warcraft's hilarious runaway success. When your games cost upwards of 50-100M just to get off the ground, not to mention the ongoing costs of running them and marketing them, the guys holding the purse strings want some kind of guaranteed ROI. And when you have a single gargantuan heavy hitter towering over the marketplace, they're going to point at it and say "Hey, make something like that."
 

Ubiquitous Duck

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I think you may be reading too much into something that is just put into MMOs in order to validate PVP.

The developers will just want to facilitate PVP in their games, to ensure they appeal to the demographic that want to take part in this and, as you covered, it needs to be done in a way that can't affect the already written works - so ofc it is going to be shoehorned in in a way that doesn't make sense, as it can't really make sense without causing disruption.

I really think there would be an outcry if an MMO about Star Wars didn't involve light vs dark. But yes, the fights will be meaningless for the Star Wars franchise/story overall, but at least people can pretend for a bit.

I get what you mean about Elder Scrolls though, it doesn't really make sense, but I think it would just be done for simplicity.

Would your preference be a multi-universe/separate timelines affair going on, where online gamers forged a new story, separate to the published media of how the events play out in books/films/other games?
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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synobal said:
Ya I hate factions as well. Let players make their own factions and fight over what they want to fight over. Too much structured pvp is a bad thing in my opinion.
you mean, like eve online, that MMO thats been around for over a decade?
 

Lawnmooer

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Factions, when the story maintains they they are enemies whom are constantly fighting (For example Alliance vs Horde in WoW) are really dull...

Sure, WoW got around it for certain things such as Cataclysm "We need to not fight or we both will die" but for the most part it's annoying that nothing can have lasting effects and leaders have to be complete morons.

An example, is the multitude of times where in WoW, both the Alliance and the Horde had opportunities to completely wipe out the opposing side. Neither could act on this otherwise the people playing the other faction would have to lose their characters. Heck, despite how many battles that one side wins (If I recall correctly, Horde have cannonically won more battles in WoW than Alliance) it doesn't affect the other faction in any way (Aside from the whole Theramore not being a place anymore thing)

If the factions aren't at war with each other in the story, then it becomes fine. They can be there for the easy set-up for PvP and to keep players spread through the world (Both factions will tend to have separate main cities that people frequent) without having to affect the storylines by making leaders look idiotic or by making player characters feel like they have no impact.
 

2xDouble

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It sounds more like your problem is with prequels... and throwing your own "hissy fit" at the mishandling of Warhammer 40k, but that's beside the point. The point of a prequel is not what's going to happen eventually, it's what is happening and can happen in the meantime. Hell, in Knights of the Old Republic, you get to dominate and destroy the galaxy (Dark Side, Female ending is considered the canon ending). Yet, it still agrees with the rest of the canon because 3000 years is a very long time in human terms, a lot can and does change in that time. From comedian Mitch Hedberg:
Mitch Hedberg said:
People often ask me, "How come you drink red wine? Doesn't that make your head hurt?" Yeah, at the end, but the beginning and middle parts are amazing!

It's like asking me "hey Mitch, do you want an apple?" "No. Eventually, it will be a core."
Also, obligatory mention of Guild Wars 2.
 

Silverfox99

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I don't agree with you.

PVP is US vs THEM to varying degrees. It is not just cause WOW did it that companies do this. It is because it works and that is why WOW did it. There is no true three way or more battle. To win you might have to defeat two different groups but it is still US vs THEM. One of the oldest PVP games is chess and it is Black vs White. Even in the world wide conflicts where dozens of countries fought it boiled down to one side vs the other side.

As far as one side gaining an advantage over the other to tell a story? Its not fair for someone who is on the loosing side and has a disadvantage because of this. They could be the best player on the sever and still be weaker because they were on the wrong side. Not good to maintain a balanced PVP.

Also, the prequel thing doesn't matter. All you know is that for a specific time period one side is in control. Luke overthrew the Empire and started what was assumed a light side rule. His dad did the same thing but gave dark side control. In the space of 100 years the balance shifted twice. The games you mentioned are far enough away in time that many cycles and story lines can be created and have died before the events that you know happened. This does not hamper a story. Much can happen in 20-50 years. Just look at the world changed since 1964.
 

Soviet Heavy

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2xDouble said:
(Dark Side, Female ending is considered the canon ending).
I don't know where you heard that, but that is false. Drew Karpyshin, lead writer for KOTOR, wrote a novel explaining Revan's actions following KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2. Revan was male, had a kid with Bastila, and was lightside.
 

Islandbuffilo

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I didn't have an issue with it until recently when my friends and I were separated by faction. Now I pvp to be guild based rather than faction based.
 

Islandbuffilo

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Soviet Heavy said:
2xDouble said:
(Dark Side, Female ending is considered the canon ending).
I don't know where you heard that, but that is false. Drew Karpyshin, lead writer for KOTOR, wrote a novel explaining Revan's actions following KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2. Revan was male, had a kid with Bastila, and was lightside.
Yeah I was wondering about that because Swtor pretty much confirms what you said.
 

Uratoh

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The Eye of Terror campaign...ugh. It was one of two events that basically made GW never let players have story input ever again, the other being the similar Storm of Chaos fantasy event...it didn't get 'stasis locked,' but they had already figured who would end up winning, and had even put work into a followup book for the tabletop RPG, called Ashes of Middenheim. The twist, was the Orcs. Allowed to fight for either Light or Dark, some forumgoers formed an Orc Alliance as it were, and put *ALL* their victories to Light. This resulted in Light winning despite the original assumption that Dark would, and at the end of the day, Valten, Exalted of Sigmar was struck down by Archeon, Lord of the End Times, who stood above him, triumphant, ready to strike the killing blow and bring Chaos in all its glory to Middenheim...when Grimgor Ironhide snuck up behind him and beat him over the head with a rock, then proceeded to chant 'Grimgor iz da Bestestttttt!' over and over again while both champions crawled back home to lick their wounds, and GW had to pull a book to completely rework its fluff content. it really annoyed them.

Another thing of note, is how they 'locked' the EoT campaign...they made Cadia untakeable. As Cadia itself was the victory condition for Chaos, this made it unwinnable, but Chaos players managed to completely occupy its airspace, controlled every single foundry world feeding it, etc...in effect, they made the planet, Cadia, a non-factor. But since that wasn't how this worked...Chaos *WON* the eye of terror campaign from any realistic perspective.
 

Yozozo

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Mar 28, 2009
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Islandbuffilo said:
Soviet Heavy said:
2xDouble said:
(Dark Side, Female ending is considered the canon ending).
I don't know where you heard that, but that is false. Drew Karpyshin, lead writer for KOTOR, wrote a novel explaining Revan's actions following KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2. Revan was male, had a kid with Bastila, and was lightside.
Yeah I was wondering about that because Swtor pretty much confirms what you said.
Also, the starwars.com database has had an entry for Revan for *YEARS*, and it explicitly stated the cannon ending was Male Lightside for Revan, and Female Lightside for The Exile.

Back on topic though, in prequel MMOs like SWTOR, I would disagree about your argument for faction combat MMOs. By bigger complaint with WoW for the longest of time was how the Alliance vs Horde war made no *sense* for 99% of the combatants, especially with every darn xpac basically being a "work together to save the world" scenario. It just never made sense why the faction war was so divided along racial lines and both sides were so...

Nevermind. I quit during Cata when it was obvious blizzard had given up on the game making any sense. I could argue WoW lore for hours, and all it would do is raise my blood pressure.
 

aozgolo

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While I can certainly agree with several of these points and sympathize with the OP's issue, my big concern is what does the alternative look like? Factions give a very convenient cop-out for how to delineate PvP battles, but also effectively divides the playerbase along artificial boundaries of essentially which side looks the coolest.

So if we want to make this constructive I'm more interested in seeing MMOs that either succeeded in doing something markedly different, or at least a well structured idea for an alternative?