I'm worried about Sonic Forces

[dscross]

I'm really not sure about Forces. There are some things in it that seem really off to me. Not sure about going back to a dark tone (it didn't work for Shadow or 06), from what I've seen there's too much talking during gameplay (reminds me of Boom), the custom character seems gimmicky, they seem to be bringing in characters that should have been one offs, the footage gives the impression that it's much easier than other boost titles, and classic sonic is not a necessary addition (we already have a brilliant classic nostalgia game in Mania)...Why couldn't they just have made a boost formula sonic game on his own?

I hope I'm wrong and it's great - I was more excited for it when fewer things were revealed - but there's something about it that gives me doubts. I'm worried that they've made some obvious mistakes again and the game will get panned by critics as usual. Wouldn't be good, especially after Mania got such a warm reception. If you notice, the Sonic games that do best critically are the simpler ones. I feel like too many elements and characters will make it a mess.

I'd just point out that I own every 2D and 3D Sonic game and adore most of them. The only ones I actively dislike A LOT are Shadow, 06, Chronicles, Free Riders, Secret Rings and Boom.... Sonic Genesis if we are counting ports.

What do you all think?

 

[Hawki]

I'm really not sure about Forces. There are some things in it that seem really off to me. Not sure about going back to a dark tone (it didn't work for StH or 06),

StH as in Shadow?

Honestly, I prefer Sonic to be somewhat dark, and it's done it before - SatAM, Archie (though that fluctuated wildly over its run), STC, SX (to an extent), etc. I can enjoy the more lighthearted versions of Sonic as well (e.g. the Boom cartoon), but Forces, specifically within the context of the games, is at a good sweet spot. More SA1/2 levels of gravitas, rather than going overboard like Shadow did (and even then I don't think the levels of darkness is Shadow's inherent problem, it's that because of the branching narrative, it can't give justice to its attempts at darkness).

So, no, I like Sonic Forces tone-wise so far.

from what I've seen there's too much talking during gameplay (reminds me of Boom),

Disagree there, and there's a key difference in the dialogue from what I've seen. A lot of the dialogue in-game in Boom is assinine - stuff like "I love running fast" or "yay, rings!". Those aren't exact quotes, but you get the point. Forces' dialogue is directly relevant to the narrative and what's happening. Not groundbreaking narrative, but miles above Boom's.

the custom character seems gimmicky,

I sort of agree, but only conceptually. I'd have much rather them have used Boom!Sonic or heck, even Tails - he has an excuse to use gadgets. I'm 50/50 as to whether the Avatar concept is brilliant or cynical as far as the fanbase goes.

they seem to be bringing in characters that should have been one offs,

If you're referring to Chaos and Silver, I agree. I personally think Shadow should have been a one-off as well, but the boat's sailed there. And at least we got something good out of Shadow with Sonic Battle, so there is that.

What do you all think?

Well, I haven't played a Sonic game since Rush Adventure, but I've generally followed him. To be honest, Forces has got me more interested in Sonic games-wise since...well, Sonic Boom to be honest (yes, I had hopes), but the less said about the game the better (even if the cartoon is enjoyable). I like that it's making an attempt at narrative again, I like the tone, and at least conceptually, it sounds good, in as much as there being three gameplay styles (and none of them being fishing thankfully).

On the other hand, I could see this backfiring. We're really pushing the nostalgia again, and I don't think it says much about the franchise (nothing good anyway) that Mania (which is a critical success) relied so heavily on nostalgia to succeed, that Generations (which is regarded as being the best 3D Sonic game it seems) is built on nostalgia, and if Forces is a success, it's still relying on nostalgia (Classic Sonic, Green Hill Zone, etc.). And I can't deny how easy the game looks, what with the boost formula, said formula I didn't enjoy in Unleashed. Maybe it got better, I dunno, but, well, not a fan.

Honestly, I'm guessing that Forces will get scores in the high seventies-low eighties range. Average to positive. Critics will use it as 'proof' that Sonic doesn't work in 3D, that there hasn't been a good Sonic game since S&K (or Mania, whatever), and life will go back to normal. Suffice to say, I don't agree with either of those assertions, but they seem to be treated like gospel at this point.

 

[shrekfan246]

The narrative side of Forces is probably going to be a complete mess, because let's be honest, that's been the case for literally every Sonic game that's tried to have an explicit story. The one that got the closest to a passable B-tier story was Colors. But, I mean, at this point that really shouldn't be anything more than we expect. There's nearly twenty years of history of Sonic games having bad stories at this point. And as long as they don't screw around with the Colors/Generations gameplay formula too much, the actual game itself is still going to be great to play.

(Like, hey, I loved Adventure and Adventure 2 back in the day and I still find it fun to play Sonic/Shadow stages in them, but the writing in them wasn't even mediocre-level at the time, and it hasn't gotten better with age.)

"yay, rings!". Those aren't exact quotes, but you get the point.

"Riiiings!" actually is pretty much a direct quote, as is "There's a bounce pad!"

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Oh, its story is going to be garbage. Hot, sticky, fan-fic-y, deviantart OC garbage.

Can't wait to play it. Here's hoping Infinite the Edgehog is every bit as entertaining as he's promising to be.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

You know, the little bits of the story that we know so far kinda upset me.

Because I had a similar idea, but they're making the shitty version of it.

Like, according to what we know

Spoiler

Oh no, some universes collided and this is a world without sonic, causing Tails to quit in depression and sonic now has to take back the world and there's classic villains back. And sonic looks just plain MAD as fuck in most of the stuff we've seen so far, instead of his usual overconfident, reckless, happy go lucky snarky self.

First of all, what. Tails doesn't just "quit" like that! WTF! Second, Sonic plots are generally better when they're lighthearted with a hint of real danger (See Adventure 1, Lost World, to some extent Colors, which is legit the closest eggman has ever come to taking over the world. There's time and place for sonic to get pissed off, but when all the stuff we've seen of him is him looking mad...Ehhhh...That's got me concerned. What made his depression and anger in Lost World work was how it was used to slowly up the stakes near the end compared to the silly first half of the game.

And honestly, I can't help but prefer my own idea for a sonic plot like this

Spoiler: Totally original idea, you no steal TM joke here

In my personal idea that SEGA seem to be making the dark and not as fun version of:

Sonic went missing for 2 years. No one knows why. Eggman takes over the world. Tails starts a resistance group. Game opens with him in his plane shooting down a particularly troublesome robot...and out flies sonic, who lands running, Cue Opening level, Metal Hill Zone. After reaching the end, only then does sonic ask "wait...Hang on this doesn't look right, what's going on?"

Cue game about him hooking up with old characters (mostly just Tails, Knuckles, and Amy) and retaking one continent/area from Eggman, and seeing how bad things got without him.

Plot unfolds as Sonic starts turning this dark and serious world fun again. With him deliberately taking what should be a serious premise and then just making fun of just about everything. For example, how did Eggman finally capture him? ...Drugged Chili dog in a gift box, literally that simple. Cue look of utter despair/depression/"Are you fucking kidding me" on Tails in the background as sonic starts thinking of the most effective place to strike eggman next.

Essentially, Sonic is there to point out how ridiculous it is to take a world with colorful animal mascots seriously, and that it's generally more fun when the plot doesn't have to take itself seriously all the time.

I mean, as a teen I LOVED SA2. ...But looking back on it, so much of it is cringy. I look back on it and I wonder why I could POSSIBLY have thought it was amazing when I was younger. I look back at it and wonder why I wanted Sonic to be dark and serious, when it's a hell of a lot more fun when it's fun and lighthearted, with just enough danger to get us invested in the story.

People rip on Shadow's game being "too dark/angsty" but really, that game was really SA2 part 2, just with better gameplay (Yeah, I said it). The only thing that Shadow The Edgehog did worse than SA2 in the writing department was atrocious and obviously forced use of swearing, copious use of the word "terrorists" to refer to the invading aliens, and Eggman's weird obsession with making shadow think he was a clone, only answering the question of how he survived SA2 in an optional thing 9 minutes into the final boss going "I saved you with one of my robots".

The rest of the crappy stuff in STH, the overfocus on "DRAMATIC" human action and dialogue, the awkward and often cringy dialogue, the trying so hard to be serious that it feels absurd and not natural? All of that existed in SA2. And at least this time the Sound Mixing was done right and people actually felt like they were having the same conversation.

 

[Saelune]

I dont turn to Sonic for great story. Just have Robotnik have some crazy cartoonish plan and have Sonic thwart it.

I really just want Bug Bunny/Looney Tunes style hijinks, but with rodents and robots.

I love Sonic Adventure 2...but its an absurd plot.

Sonic is very much a series that should be about fun and fast gameplay first.

 

[crusador90]

You know, the little bits of the story that we know so far kinda upset me.

Because I had a similar idea, but they're making the shitty version of it.

Like, according to what we know

Spoiler

Oh no, some universes collided and this is a world without sonic, causing Tails to quit in depression and sonic now has to take back the world and there's classic villains back. And sonic looks just plain MAD as fuck in most of the stuff we've seen so far, instead of his usual overconfident, reckless, happy go lucky snarky self.

First of all, what. Tails doesn't just "quit" like that! WTF! Second, Sonic plots are generally better when they're lighthearted with a hint of real danger (See Adventure 1, Lost World, to some extent Colors, which is legit the closest eggman has ever come to taking over the world. There's time and place for sonic to get pissed off, but when all the stuff we've seen of him is him looking mad...Ehhhh...That's got me concerned. What made his depression and anger in Lost World work was how it was used to slowly up the stakes near the end compared to the silly first half of the game.

And honestly, I can't help but prefer my own idea for a sonic plot like this

Spoiler: Totally original idea, you no steal TM joke here

In my personal idea that SEGA seem to be making the dark and not as fun version of:

Sonic went missing for 2 years. No one knows why. Eggman takes over the world. Tails starts a resistance group. Game opens with him in his plane shooting down a particularly troublesome robot...and out flies sonic, who lands running, Cue Opening level, Metal Hill Zone. After reaching the end, only then does sonic ask "wait...Hang on this doesn't look right, what's going on?"

Cue game about him hooking up with old characters (mostly just Tails, Knuckles, and Amy) and retaking one continent/area from Eggman, and seeing how bad things got without him.

Plot unfolds as Sonic starts turning this dark and serious world fun again. With him deliberately taking what should be a serious premise and then just making fun of just about everything. For example, how did Eggman finally capture him? ...Drugged Chili dog in a gift box, literally that simple. Cue look of utter despair/depression/"Are you fucking kidding me" on Tails in the background as sonic starts thinking of the most effective place to strike eggman next.

Essentially, Sonic is there to point out how ridiculous it is to take a world with colorful animal mascots seriously, and that it's generally more fun when the plot doesn't have to take itself seriously all the time.

I mean, as a teen I LOVED SA2. ...But looking back on it, so much of it is cringy. I look back on it and I wonder why I could POSSIBLY have thought it was amazing when I was younger. I look back at it and wonder why I wanted Sonic to be dark and serious, when it's a hell of a lot more fun when it's fun and lighthearted, with just enough danger to get us invested in the story.

People rip on Shadow's game being "too dark/angsty" but really, that game was really SA2 part 2, just with better gameplay (Yeah, I said it). The only thing that Shadow The Edgehog did worse than SA2 in the writing department was atrocious and obviously forced use of swearing, copious use of the word "terrorists" to refer to the invading aliens, and Eggman's weird obsession with making shadow think he was a clone, only answering the question of how he survived SA2 in an optional thing 9 minutes into the final boss going "I saved you with one of my robots".

The rest of the crappy stuff in STH, the overfocus on "DRAMATIC" human action and dialogue, the awkward and often cringy dialogue, the trying so hard to be serious that it feels absurd and not natural? All of that existed in SA2. And at least this time the Sound Mixing was done right and people actually felt like they were having the same conversation.

You know... looking back. For one. I remember being in that same camp. I LOVED SA2 to tears. I loved its story and its characters... especially Shadow. And was kinda torn when he apparently bit the big one at the end. He was popular for a reason... at least if you look at Shadow as just the character he was portrayed and meant to be seen as in SA2 alone. Kiddies like me were waiting at the chance to see him back so much so that we weren't really all that aware that Shadow's story was pretty much at that point wrapped up. He was meant to be a one-off character and he seemingly went off on a high note right afterwards./
But he was SO popular that Sega, being caring as they are to the Sonic fanbase, brought him back to fan demand.

It was here that we'd see the weaknesses in Sonic Team's storytelling. They like to play it fast and loose when it comes to building any sense or semblance of continuity and overarching narrative in between games. Not helping is the rather brisk production cycle the each subsequent game has gone under. There'd be a higher chance for plot blunders that become more obvious the more one thinks on them. But we were kiddies happy with what we were given, Sonic and all his cheesy glory.

This all came to a head the moment Shadow the Hedgehog was even announced. We look back on it nowadays. We laugh at that awful execution of the plot and its branching narrative... or cringe.... or both. (only to be completely tossed aside with a "Last Story") We laugh at the idea of Shadow the Hedgehog packing HEAT and swearing (but only the "D" and "H" words.... don't wanna go toooo far there.). The game that forever and retroactively appended the "EDGELORD" label onto a character that was once respected and loved... WAS REQUESTED BY US FANS. WE ASKED FOR IT AND SEGA DELIVERED, NOT KNOWING WHAT IT WAS WE ASKED FOR.


From then on, the games slowly went on a path back towards going the "Lighter and Softer" route, with varying degrees of success.
I don't understand why its a problem of how heavy-handed or light-hearted Sonic's plots are... because in my opinion the debate completely misses the bigger picture and the more important question that we Sonic fans SHOULD be asking.

It's not a matter of what tone is inappropriate for the Sonic games... as extremes are NEVER good at all. It should be more rather, "Can this plot help facilitate a GOOD Sonic Game?"

Or even better... just a good story in general. I don't see many people hating on Sonic SatAm... or the late Sonic Archie series [At its high points, of course]... and those stories had just the right amount of urgency to give the plot some real stakes, but also just that right balance that lets us remember that we're still in an all-ages romp starring a blue speedy hedgehog and his friends against an overweight roboticist and his empire of malicious machines.

The plot just needs to be able to stand up on its own and facilitate an enjoyable story overall.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It will probably suck unless they make the game like Generations.

Like even the fond memories people have the Sonic Adventure games.... go back and actually play them, they have not aged well. At all.


But whatever, I don't care. I'm mildly interested by the create-your-own-hedgehog ChrisChan mode. If there is no Sonichu, we riot.

 

[dscross]

It will probably suck unless they make the game like Generations.

Like even the fond memories people have the Sonic Adventure games.... go back and actually play them, they have not aged well. At all.

I never understood this argument. The adventure series still plays fine to me. I keep hearing people say things about it not aging well but the controls feel fine to me. The sonic and shadow gameplay just feels like a 3d version of the classics, except a bit more linear (there are still some secrets though). The story and cutscenes suck but I don't really care about that.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It will probably suck unless they make the game like Generations.

Like even the fond memories people have the Sonic Adventure games.... go back and actually play them, they have not aged well. At all.

I never understood this argument. The adventure series still plays fine to me. I keep hearing people say things about it not aging well but the controls feel fine to me. The sonic and shadow gameplay just feels like a 3d version of the classics, except a bit more linear (there are still some secrets though). The story and cutscenes suck but I don't really care about that.

The camera and visuals really don't hold up well at all.

 

[gsilver]

Eh. I'm not worried.
But then again, I've never cared about 3D Sonic (well, after I played Adventure, anyway)

 

[dscross]

It will probably suck unless they make the game like Generations.

Like even the fond memories people have the Sonic Adventure games.... go back and actually play them, they have not aged well. At all.

I never understood this argument. The adventure series still plays fine to me. I keep hearing people say things about it not aging well but the controls feel fine to me. The sonic and shadow gameplay just feels like a 3d version of the classics, except a bit more linear (there are still some secrets though). The story and cutscenes suck but I don't really care about that.

The camera and visuals really don't hold up well at all.

I really don't think it's as much of an isssue as people make it. It plays fine. There are nothing more that very slight annoyances that don't change gameplay at all for me. Mario 64 had camera trouble as well. No one cares about that. It's just because it's Sonic.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It will probably suck unless they make the game like Generations.

Like even the fond memories people have the Sonic Adventure games.... go back and actually play them, they have not aged well. At all.

I never understood this argument. The adventure series still plays fine to me. I keep hearing people say things about it not aging well but the controls feel fine to me. The sonic and shadow gameplay just feels like a 3d version of the classics, except a bit more linear (there are still some secrets though). The story and cutscenes suck but I don't really care about that.

The camera and visuals really don't hold up well at all.

I really don't think it's as much of an isssue as people make it. It plays fine. There are nothing more that very slight annoyances that don't change gameplay at all for me. Mario 64 had camera trouble as well. No one cares about that. It's just because it's Sonic.

I mean the video above was my last attempt at playing it and I didn't get very far before I turned it off in disgust.