Immersion-breaking premises

[shteev]

I had this with the movie 'In Time'. On the surface it's an anti-capitalist tale.... except the the rich are never shown doing anything more evil than simply owning money, and our poor hero wants to steal it off them and redistribute it largely because of a rather childish sense of entitlement. It's practically crypto-capitalist propaganda. One particularly telling sequence has our hero give his poor friend some money, which his poor friend immediately uses to drink himself to death with. Clearly, the poor cannot be trusted with money.

Interestingly, most of the people I tell this theory to give me a similar reaction to the one that OP has experienced in this thread: 'You're reading an interpretation into it that isn't there, and the offense you take to it is your problem'.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Practically none for me. I always take a game for what it is regardless of how "silly" it's premise/mechanics/whatever may be. The only thing that breaks my suspension of disbelief is when a universe clearly breaks its own rules.

Pretty much my exact thoughts on the matter. Games have the capability of being as silly as people want to make them. Breaking that universe's rules is the only thing that'll bother me.

[sub][sub]Nothing further to add, your honor.[/sub][/sub]

 

[redmoretrout]

snip

I'm a little confused by your complaint, were you turned off Bioshock infinite because an American sect of Christianity embraced racism? Because there are actual historical examples of this happening like the KKK for example. Radicalized religion is always dangerous no matter where it originated.

But back on topic, my immersion in LA Noire was completely broken. beThe premise of LA Noire was very sound, investigating crime scenes and interrogating suspects was great, but the game couldn't stick to its premise. It felt the need to add ridiculous shoot-outs and car chases, that completely broke the atmosphere and flow of the game.

 

[lacktheknack]

So I can't get immersed at all. Maybe if Irrational had made clear that this is not Christianity, but rather a horribly twisted cult

And the difference between Christianity and a twisted cult is what?

General tip: Trying to be hilarious in a religion-based discussion tends to be an inflammatory and stupid idea. Unless you're serious, in which case I suggest you brush up on your definitions of "cult", "denomination" and "sect", and particularly "twisted". Other alternative: Stop trying to be outrageous for quotes.

OT: I'm generally not a big fan of anti-religious/anti-faith game settings either, but I'm much more forgiving than the OP, apparently.

Although no premise is as immersion-breaking as a LEGO version of anything. Just putting it out there. (I love LEGO Star Wars endlessly, but I can admit when I'm aware that I'm playing a game and have no delusions of being involved in a story.)

 

[Mr.Squishy]

So I can't get immersed at all. Maybe if Irrational had made clear that this is not Christianity, but rather a horribly twisted cult

And the difference between Christianity and a twisted cult is what?

General tip: Trying to be hilarious in a religion-based discussion tends to be an inflammatory and stupid idea. Unless you're serious, in which case I suggest you brush up on your definitions of "cult", "denomination" and "sect", and particularly "twisted". Other alternative: Stop trying to be outrageous for quotes.

OT: I'm generally not a big fan of anti-religious/anti-faith game settings either, but I'm much more forgiving than the OP, apparently.

Although no premise is as immersion-breaking as a LEGO version of anything. Just putting it out there. (I love LEGO Star Wars endlessly, but I can admit when I'm aware that I'm playing a game and have no delusions of being involved in a story.)

cult
/kəlt/
Noun

1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

Synonyms
worship - religion - adoration


de·nom·i·na·tion
/diˌnäməˈnāSHən/
Noun

1. A recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church.
2. A group or branch of any religion.

Synonyms
name - appellation - designation - title - sect

I don't know about you, but Christianity seems to me like a cult devoted to GOD. Horribly twisted is a matter of opinion.
But I'll admit, I was half curious, and half joking. While I'm genuinely interested in separates Christianity from the cult in Columbia, I was also feeling a bit cheeky. So sue me.

 

[philosophicalbastard]

To answer the question of the thread. Dead Space 3. I got it as my "we're sorry for simcity" game from EA but I haven't touched it yet. I liked Dead Space 2 too much. And I just can't accept that anyone who has escaped from alien superzombies twice would willingly go to a place were there are more alien superzombies. It doesn't make sense. I would just leave the job to someone else and never complain about anything in my life ever again.

Actually a major plot point is that Isaac really doesn't want to go fight any more alien zombies, which is why Ellie broke up with him since she feels she has some duty to stop all the Markers. Isaac only goes to fight more in order to rescue her from the shit she inevitably gets herself into.

I've never had a plot ever really break a game for me. Even if a game has the most ridiculous story I probably won't care as long as the gameplay's good.

 

[omicron1]

So I can't get immersed at all. Maybe if Irrational had made clear that this is not Christianity, but rather a horribly twisted cult

And the difference between Christianity and a twisted cult is what?

Bigotry really doesn't belong outside the R&P section, sir. Do you have an actual point?

 

[lacktheknack]

So I can't get immersed at all. Maybe if Irrational had made clear that this is not Christianity, but rather a horribly twisted cult

And the difference between Christianity and a twisted cult is what?

General tip: Trying to be hilarious in a religion-based discussion tends to be an inflammatory and stupid idea. Unless you're serious, in which case I suggest you brush up on your definitions of "cult", "denomination" and "sect", and particularly "twisted". Other alternative: Stop trying to be outrageous for quotes.

OT: I'm generally not a big fan of anti-religious/anti-faith game settings either, but I'm much more forgiving than the OP, apparently.

Although no premise is as immersion-breaking as a LEGO version of anything. Just putting it out there. (I love LEGO Star Wars endlessly, but I can admit when I'm aware that I'm playing a game and have no delusions of being involved in a story.)

cult
/kəlt/
Noun

1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

Synonyms
worship - religion - adoration


de·nom·i·na·tion
/diˌnäməˈnāSHən/
Noun

1. A recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church.
2. A group or branch of any religion.

Synonyms
name - appellation - designation - title - sect

I don't know about you, but Christianity seems to me like a cult devoted to GOD. Horribly twisted is a matter of opinion.
But I'll admit, I was half curious, and half joking. While I'm genuinely interested in separates Christianity from the cult in Columbia, I was also feeling a bit cheeky. So sue me.

I was aiming for the fact that Christianity is a denomination of Judaism, while Bioshock's cult is an extremist order fixed on political ideologies, but "cult of God" is a weird enough idea that this exchange was worth it anyways.

 

[Comic Sans]

I am afraid I have to join the chorus in telling you that the religion in Infinite is not, in fact Christianity. It could not have possibly been more obvious. It uses similar terminology, but has completely different tenants. I mean, did you look at it on more than a base level? They believe that Comstock is a prophet, that his daughter is a Jesus like figure of prophesy. Their symbols are a key, sword and scroll. They worship the founding fathers. I don't think there is a single cross or other Christian symbol in the game besides the angel statues. So what part of them made it unclear that they were in fact NOT mainstream Christians?

In any case, while I've seen some bad stories in games, no premise has been enough on it's own to ruin my immersion. I enjoy even the outlandish settings. It's all for fun after all.

 

[Mr.Squishy]

So I can't get immersed at all. Maybe if Irrational had made clear that this is not Christianity, but rather a horribly twisted cult

And the difference between Christianity and a twisted cult is what?

Bigotry really doesn't belong outside the R&P section, sir. Do you have an actual point?

Are you saying bigotry is okay in the R&P section? Because I think the mods might disagree with that. Sir.
And yes, my point was that I was asking an entirely legitimate question out of curiosity. An explanation of the rather fuzzy (to me) distinction between Christianity and a horribly twisted cult would be rather appreciated.

 

[Tomaius]

The Prince of Persia reboot. Nolan North's voice, bugs the hell out of me. I hate that kinda arrogant self assured standard white male protagonist.

 

[sextus the crazy]

Know that I am currently resisting the urge to leap for your throat for daring to criticize my beloved Infinite.

*ahem*

Anyway, for me it was Homefront.

A game set in the near future in which North Korea invades the USA. Yeah. And they don't do it by a way of a pact with the ancient gods of evil or anything, they just do it with conventional military force.

Now, I'm not American. So I don't object because of, "Oh, how dare they show those dirty Norks invading my beloved homeland! That would never happen, not to AMURICAH!"

No, I object because it's ridiculous. A small, impoverished and nigh on starving nation invades the most powerful country on earth, a country that, lest we forget, also sports a considerable arsenal of nuclear weapons.

Yes, they try to explain it by saying the USA went into severe economic decline. Okay, fair enough, that could happen I guess. But going into economic decline doesn't make your nukes all magically disappear and it doesn't turn bloody North Korea into an international powerhouse. It also doesn't make every nation in Asia suddenly so weak that they somehow get curb-stomped by bloody North Korea.

Bah!

Ditto. Pretty much any "someone invades america story is ridiculous" (MW2&3, I'm looking at you). I don't think most writers understand just how hard an amphibious operation is. Hell, the normandy invasion was the culmination of a year's planning and a shit ton of material and immaterial resources being put to use, all for a smallish (only 2 armies at first) invasion force.

That's the essential problem with anything attacking America. Your chances of success are almost non-existent. Even if every other country on earth attacked us. We've got the Naval might to keep them off our shores and the military industrial might to whoop our neighbors quickly.

 

[omicron1]

So I can't get immersed at all. Maybe if Irrational had made clear that this is not Christianity, but rather a horribly twisted cult

And the difference between Christianity and a twisted cult is what?

Bigotry really doesn't belong outside the R&P section, sir. Do you have an actual point?

Are you saying bigotry is okay in the R&P section? Because I think the mods might disagree with that. Sir.
And yes, my point was that I was asking an entirely legitimate question out of curiosity. An explanation of the rather fuzzy (to me) distinction between Christianity and a horribly twisted cult would be rather appreciated.

Ma'am. Sorry - I'm a bit touchy about denigrating comments lately.


Now, the distinction between Christianity and cult is as follows: The Bible laid out room for exactly one savior. Any "prophets" or "messiahs" come late are simply writing their own take on things. They have habits of creating a cult centered around themselves, in which they are, if not revered, then placed on an equal pedastel to God. They tend to have odd "rewrites" of the Bible - golden tablets, holy cities in Arabia, personal planets - stuff like that.
Oh, and they always seem to call themselves something other than "Christian" somehow

It is arguable that Infinite is not attacking Christianity directly. But you know what? I dislike "Evils of organized religion/religious fundamentalism/religious extremism" stuff just as much. So I'm sorry, but any Aesop the game gives concerning those is still my affair.

 

[Lord Garnaat]

Wow, the people in this thread really dislike Christianity. I suppose I should be used to that on this site by now, but it's still rather disappointing.

Anyways, to address the OP's concerns, I did see some of the things you're talking about when I was playing. I think it did an adequate job of distinguishing Comstock's bizarre little cult from mainstream Christianity, but a few things - like the baptism - cut it a little close to me. I found it a little odd that it was Comstock finding religion that turned him into a hateful, evil person - the implications of that seemed a touch bit heavy-handed by my perspective. Of course, it's worth keeping in mind that Bioshock games are about the dangers of extremism, and Comstock's interpretation of religion is nothing if not that. I doubt that any anti-religious tones were intentional, and overall I think that the game is a fantastic story that has a lot to say.

In terms of the actual question at hand, I have to say that I share the OP's discomfort about media and people in general just writing off all religion as pure evil and every who has even the vaguest sort of faith as an hateful, ignorant monster. It's the same sort of ludicrous, ridiculous prejudice that leads to the kind of extremism that Bioshock games so effectively rally against.

Not unlike the kind I've seen here...

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

Know that I am currently resisting the urge to leap for your throat for daring to criticize my beloved Infinite.

*ahem*

Anyway, for me it was Homefront.

A game set in the near future in which North Korea invades the USA. Yeah. And they don't do it by a way of a pact with the ancient gods of evil or anything, they just do it with conventional military force.

Now, I'm not American. So I don't object because of, "Oh, how dare they show those dirty Norks invading my beloved homeland! That would never happen, not to AMURICAH!"

No, I object because it's ridiculous. A small, impoverished and nigh on starving nation invades the most powerful country on earth, a country that, lest we forget, also sports a considerable arsenal of nuclear weapons.

Yes, they try to explain it by saying the USA went into severe economic decline. Okay, fair enough, that could happen I guess. But going into economic decline doesn't make your nukes all magically disappear and it doesn't turn bloody North Korea into an international powerhouse. It also doesn't make every nation in Asia suddenly so weak that they somehow get curb-stomped by bloody North Korea.

Bah!

That one is simple, just replace North Korea with China and things begin to make more sense.

Crysis did something similar, apparently The Peoples Republic of China does't like being portrayed as the bad guy.

 

[Splitzi]

I don't really see how this is attacking Christianity. Although I'm not religious I was raised Roman Catholic and went to four years of Catholic high school, so I'd say I have a pretty solid background and understanding of Christianity. I'd suspect that if Bioshock was trying to ridicule religion they would have presented more of a satire on the New Testament. Instead it puts America's Founding Fathers into positions of Deification. While this could represent the Trinity, the symbols are off and the people are not representations of one deity.

I am afraid I have to join the chorus in telling you that the religion in Infinite is not, in fact Christianity. It could not have possibly been more obvious. It uses similar terminology, but has completely different tenants. I mean, did you look at it on more than a base level? They believe that Comstock is a prophet, that his daughter is a Jesus like figure of prophesy. Their symbols are a key, sword and scroll. They worship the founding fathers. I don't think there is a single cross or other Christian symbol in the game besides the angel statues. So what part of them made it unclear that they were in fact NOT mainstream Christians?

Really dug this post, actually part of the reason I wanted to weigh in. It gave me a solid jumping off point.

The story seems to be more about the extreme perversion of American ideals, such as Manifest Destiny, racism during that period in history, general feelings against immigration, and the populist reform movements that were springing up around the country. OP I understand how important religion can be to some people, but you seem over sensitive in this case. The game is more of a commentary on America at the time.

On the topic of breaking immersion, I just could not handle Dishonored. Just being pushed down a path that was so obviously wrong drove me crazy, it seemed like he lost all of his reasoning and critical thinking skills in prison.

 

[PsychicTaco115]

I always felt that Infinite was dealing more with the perversion/corruption of an ideal than anything else. It did so with Objectivism in the first Bioshock, and also deals with the extremes of socialist ideals in the same game

Worshiping the Founding Fathers for their ideals of freedom, liberty, etc.? That's all good and dandy

Worshiping the Founding Fathers and using their ideals to promote institutionalized racism? That's no good!

OT: I've never really felt total immersion in a game before; my brain usually finds ways to keep my mind in reality >.>

 

[JemothSkarii]

Picked up where I left off on Dragon's Dogma yesterday. I actually find that game to be pretty immersive...until a pawn says something compleetly obvious. Some of the gems I heard yesterday was:

"ARMED BANDITS!"
(standing in front of a cottage) "I think that's a cottage"
(Fighting hellhounds) "Fire does nothing!"
Oh, and the ever common:

"WOLVES HUNT IN PACKS!"

Also doesn't help when someone makes a pawn with a squeaky voice. Thankfully my pawn doesn't and she's kinda popular...I think. Haven't checked the 'leaderboards'

 

[II2]

I can't get into the new BioShock. It's not really its fault - it's mechanically great, very pretty, and overall the very definition of a good game. No, my problem with the thing lies with its premise.

For those couple cavemen who missed it, BioShock Infinite is about magical racist Christians (*wink wink nudge*) in the sky. They're led by an amalgam of Mohammed and Joseph Smith, and the game spares few expenses to keep shoving this in your face as you play. "See? Those idyllic-looking folks that look like a church emptied itself over the courtroom are RACIIIIST!!!" "Here, have some vaguely Christian-by-way-of-King-James fluff!" "Baptism/drowning, folks!"
It's for all the world like someone at Irrational took that

Spoiler

wounded knee panorama

to heart and decided to make their very own Evil Christian Museum Display.
And that's not even mentioning the paranoid patriophobic wing of their Sky Museum.

So I can't get immersed at all. Maybe if Irrational had made clear that this is not Christianity, but rather a horribly twisted cult, it could have worked. But as it is, my suspension of disbelief fell from the skies even before I reached them ingame, with those self-important needleworks on the walls of the lighthouse.

From then on, I cannot take anything seriously. It's all just a set-'em-up knock-'em-down animatronic display with an Aesop I actively oppose, and I can't get more out of it than as a playground for explosions and casual looting.


(TLDR)
All that to ask, are there any titles that did this for you? Broke immersion before you really started by way of a ridiculous or offensive premise or story? And how (or how long) did you keep on going after?

I'm pretty open minded when it comes to immersion and forgiving videogame settings and narratives their peculiarities... For me, I find realistic modern shooters where other humans are meat sponges that absorb bullets like a punching bag before getting dropped takes me out of the experience a bit... Crysis 1 was the most egregious example of this I can recall of the top of my head, especially since it had such a high fidelity commitment to visual realism, the Korean army regulars 5-15 hit (excepting headshot) health bars jarring.

Regarding Bioshock Infinite and Christianity... I don't think at any point it actually claims the citizens of Columbia are that. It borrows a lot of elements, but it's a pretty clear blasphemous cult whose Christian elements have been turned on their ear; IE following a self declared prophet with his own bible... He says he's been spoken to by God and occasionally an Arch Angel, but never declares himself Christian, as such.

Basically what I'm getting at is it strikes me as fairly self evident it's not vanilla Christianity from the basic presentation.

 

[Jiefu]

Jesus is mentioned exactly once in the game. Comstock calls himself a prophet, a clear case of blasphemy. They're NOT Christians. Also, it's 1912, the only difference between 1912 America's racism and Columbia's racism is the elevation.