In the NIU shooting, guess what's first to blame?
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It's not the guns, it's not the games, it's the complete loonies. A gun is a tool, it's a machine. A gun is no more good or bad than the person using it.
This NIU shooting as an example. The shooter stopped taking his pills and went out and killed some innocent people. In his hands a gun is a dangerous weapon.
However, in the hands of a trained soldier ie. saintsinner it is a useful and often lifesaving tool.
I put it to you like this. If guns were banned in the US and the NIU shooter couldn't get his hands on 1 but could get his hands on a car and these victims were standing in line at a bus stop. He would have just and quickly and easily killed them with that car as with a gun.
Disclaimer: No I am not American, no I am not a gun nut and yes I do agree that the only good criminal is a scared criminal.
This NIU shooting as an example. The shooter stopped taking his pills and went out and killed some innocent people. In his hands a gun is a dangerous weapon.
However, in the hands of a trained soldier ie. saintsinner it is a useful and often lifesaving tool.
I put it to you like this. If guns were banned in the US and the NIU shooter couldn't get his hands on 1 but could get his hands on a car and these victims were standing in line at a bus stop. He would have just and quickly and easily killed them with that car as with a gun.
Disclaimer: No I am not American, no I am not a gun nut and yes I do agree that the only good criminal is a scared criminal.
Oh, I agree that anyone purchasing a firearm should be tested before they are allowed to carry one. In fact, as I recall (fellow Americans correct me if I'm wrong) there are actually laws which require a complete background check and that includes looking into mental health history. I imagine that this type of thing could be improved with a mental health test.nilpferdkoenig said:
And yes, the military usually deals with invaders, but here in America, we believe in everyone having the right to have a weapon, because, after all, waiting for the established protectors (military and police) to come help you could take a while.
I agree with Hengst. Guns DO NOT kill people. It's people using guns that do. Sure, guns make killing easier for someone who intends to do so. But, as he said, humans have always found a way to kill each other, so outlawing guns isn't going to stop it.
xMacx, where are you from? A lot of times, law enforcement encourages people to appease criminals. "Let them take the money." they say. "Your life is more important." The problem, there, is the fact that here in America, criminals will kill you even if you do what they say to the letter. Believe me, there's a lot of these cases in my region of the US reported on the news each year. And yes, what prevents a store clerk's death in many cases is the fact that they pull a shotgun or handgun and open fire. But, apparently, I can only understand such things because, like others here are saying, "I'm an American gun-nut." Go ahead and play out all the peaceful ways a criminal will handle a situation. Personally, I see it as being naive. The fact remains that the only way a bully will back down is through violence or the threat of violence. I have yet to meet one I could reason with.
Talisker's right on the mark.
I play violent games, and watch gore fest movies, but do I want to kill people. I may be a tiny bit desensitized to violence, but I sure as hell don't want to kill people.
Another interesting thing that I have read is that school shootings occur more often because of the media coverage. The kids want a last moment of blazing glory, to become famous, and well, a high school shooting is perfect for that. One kid even left a good bye note where he stated that he was inspired by other shootings and the attention they got. He wanted that too. Of course, the media bypassed that note almost completely and blamed games instead.
As for the fire arms discussion, I think it is of little use until someone managed to pull out some numbers on fire arms related deaths, accidents, how many of these guns were legal. Trying to argument with some 'newsarticles you have read' or experiences of your own doesn't work. Gimme cold hard data.
As for the fire arms discussion, I think it is of little use until someone managed to pull out some numbers on fire arms related deaths, accidents, how many of these guns were legal. Trying to argument with some 'newsarticles you have read' or experiences of your own doesn't work. Gimme cold hard data.
Kids just seemed to be more widely publicized as "screwed up" these days. Look at how 17 folks have now committed suicide in that town in Wales over the past year. Many of these are young kids, boys and girls who met online through social networking sites. Sometimes too much coverage is definitely a bad thing.
See, we'd do this, except it's a right protected in our constitution. Made back in the time when the general populace was the army. Really, it's about damn time we modernize the thing.Saskwach said:
Funny thing is that many scientists are already ditching this place, so it's begun. Canada seems nice...Copter400 said:
And as a side note, I find it hilarious that we went from videogame blame to gun control laws.
Now here's something interesting I stumbled on after reading this flame war.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buyback-has-no-effect-on-murder-rate/2006/10/23/1161455665717.html
It seems to say unambiguously (without giving us the study but oh well, the SMH still a pretty reputable source) that Australia's very stringent buyback policy has done nothing to increase the decline in Australia's murder rate. Turns out my rant was right to suggest Oz was a good test-bed, but for completely wrong reasons.
ALL CAPS rant aside, my views on American gun control even before this was that the problem was incorrigible. There are too many guns in America- and more importantly too many on the black market and in the hands of criminals- that buybacks and illegalising guns would do much.
This is a complex issue that I don't feel favours one or 'tuther side, so I'll be searching around but it's late and I want to read other stuff on the forums anyhow.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buyback-has-no-effect-on-murder-rate/2006/10/23/1161455665717.html
It seems to say unambiguously (without giving us the study but oh well, the SMH still a pretty reputable source) that Australia's very stringent buyback policy has done nothing to increase the decline in Australia's murder rate. Turns out my rant was right to suggest Oz was a good test-bed, but for completely wrong reasons.
ALL CAPS rant aside, my views on American gun control even before this was that the problem was incorrigible. There are too many guns in America- and more importantly too many on the black market and in the hands of criminals- that buybacks and illegalising guns would do much.
This is a complex issue that I don't feel favours one or 'tuther side, so I'll be searching around but it's late and I want to read other stuff on the forums anyhow.
Getting back to the topic at hand....
Let's face it. People don't want to look at themselves critically. They don't want to hear "Angry young loner kills 12 at school, then self; could we as a society have let him down?". They don't want to believe that they could be in any way, even marginally, responsible for another human being going so off-kilter. Who wants to look in the mirror and think "Gee, if I'd just taught my son not to bully kids different from him, maybe that Goth kid wouldn't have brought a Glock to homeroom"? Who wants to stand at the office water cooler and admit, "I should have talked to my kids more, so I could've seen all this anger and resentment building up"?
People want scapegoats. They want something to point the finger at besides themselves. They want to believe that everyone is good and pure, and only some monster like video games, rock 'n roll, witchcraft or wearing mismatched socks can turn someone into a murderer.
Let's face it. People don't want to look at themselves critically. They don't want to hear "Angry young loner kills 12 at school, then self; could we as a society have let him down?". They don't want to believe that they could be in any way, even marginally, responsible for another human being going so off-kilter. Who wants to look in the mirror and think "Gee, if I'd just taught my son not to bully kids different from him, maybe that Goth kid wouldn't have brought a Glock to homeroom"? Who wants to stand at the office water cooler and admit, "I should have talked to my kids more, so I could've seen all this anger and resentment building up"?
People want scapegoats. They want something to point the finger at besides themselves. They want to believe that everyone is good and pure, and only some monster like video games, rock 'n roll, witchcraft or wearing mismatched socks can turn someone into a murderer.
Sweet Lord. The absolute emperor of asshats is the moron who moves to your country and whines that it should be more like the place that wasn't worth staying in! If it's better there, go the hell back. If it's better here, shut the hell up and be glad you're here - it's for damn sure no one else is. Go back home, maybe you'll improve the average IQ of both countries.propertyofcobra said:
Yes, guns make it easier to kill people - that's what they were for originally, what many of them are for today, and something all of them are capable of. Yes, violent video games (and movies, and television) desensitize you to violence and death. All of that misses the point that people make the decision to kill. Every "Video games caused my boy to be a killer" lawsuit steals a bit of our collective souls. Every "blame it on guns" defense steals a bit of our intelligence. We get headlines like "SUV runs over pedestrian" because it's not PC to blame anyone for his own actions. What, just an SUV? No driver?
There are evil people. There are people who are mentally ill. There are people who are messed up really badly on drugs. There always have been; there always will be. If you're a 100 pound female or elderly, you're pretty much meat to any male criminal out there. You got a ball bat, he's got a ball bat, you're freaking dead. The most fit martial artist is prey to a gang of thugs with clubs; the meekest milquetoast is equal to that same gang if he's armed with a firearm and has the training and will to use it. If you've got a .357 and he's got a .44, you're still pretty even. G-d made all men; Samual Colt made all men equal.
An armed populace are citizens. An unarmed populace are property.
Grrrr. Nothing frosts my oats like someone simultaneously defending his rights and demanding that others' rights be taken away. How the hell is that any different from the journalists rabidly defending everything they do a free speech while attempting to restrict video games?
Okay..i stopped reading somewhere page 2 in the middle and just began to post because i can guess it just gets more to flamewar and all the same points are brought over and over, so lets cover all of it in one turn, shall we? Okay..lets start.
1) The Problem with Guns and the US is a very simple one. I do understand the reason People get a gun and why its even allowed in the first place but lets see a simple logic here, dont worry, its not hard on the brain and i'll explain it simple. The Fact that the US are getting bullshit thrown at them because of their Laws regarding owning a Gun stems from the Fact that no other Country has any similar Law, why not? Because they have no need to, in the US you are allowed and sometimes required to have a Gun simply because everyone else has, in the UK or Germany or every other Country doesnt have that, no fear of getting shot=no need to carry a gun. Ban Guns or have every Person being a certain age and meet very strict rules before even giving them a Weapon, in Germany, after the Erfurt Massacre (which was also blamed on Games) they tightened the Law to actually OWN or IMPORT a gun into the country, still possible to get one, but quite harder. Okay, moving to the next Point.
2) Blaming Games is really simple as well, because the logic behind it is as old as the first hate speeches, lets recount. TV was invented and then came the movies and shows etc, so People were like "TV is bad" like they do now with games, so far so good, now why is that the same? Because nowadays having a TV is common, everyone owns one or at least has seen one to know its NOT bad. Same goes for Music and everything else, as soon as enough People know its not as the Media tells us they find another scapegoat. Tv to Music and Music to Games, i wonder why they havent said THINKING is bad yet, seeing that many people dont even do that anymore, otherwise there would not be such hatespeeches and god knows what against something at all, unless really proven otherwise. So unless someone starts playing a Game and immidiatly goes on a killing spree the simple idea of it causing any violent behaviour is stupid, if not totally moronic.
So, in case someone expected a Flamepost here and didnt read much of this post, lets make it short. Guns dont kill People. People kill People WITH Guns (or knifes etc) therefore preventing them, especially mentally unstable people, to get a gun will lower said Crimerate, it wont prevent it altogether, but lower it. And yes there is a psychological switch also, killing someone with a gun is easy, its pointing and pulling the trigger. Using a Knife on the other hand, you have to get close to the victim, the victim does stand a fighting chance and can kill you (the attacker in this case) because of being lucky or being stronger whatever. Also looking someone in the Eyes when you stab them scarres the mind more then a simple point&click gunshot. If you want real Psychological Terror however, look at Military Hardware and how easy it is to exterminate thousands of People with the press of one Button.
EDIT: And no this is no rant or flame against any Person in here, Country or Group of People, its just my, somewhat objective (if it can be that, seeing its mine) Opinion on the Matter.
1) The Problem with Guns and the US is a very simple one. I do understand the reason People get a gun and why its even allowed in the first place but lets see a simple logic here, dont worry, its not hard on the brain and i'll explain it simple. The Fact that the US are getting bullshit thrown at them because of their Laws regarding owning a Gun stems from the Fact that no other Country has any similar Law, why not? Because they have no need to, in the US you are allowed and sometimes required to have a Gun simply because everyone else has, in the UK or Germany or every other Country doesnt have that, no fear of getting shot=no need to carry a gun. Ban Guns or have every Person being a certain age and meet very strict rules before even giving them a Weapon, in Germany, after the Erfurt Massacre (which was also blamed on Games) they tightened the Law to actually OWN or IMPORT a gun into the country, still possible to get one, but quite harder. Okay, moving to the next Point.
2) Blaming Games is really simple as well, because the logic behind it is as old as the first hate speeches, lets recount. TV was invented and then came the movies and shows etc, so People were like "TV is bad" like they do now with games, so far so good, now why is that the same? Because nowadays having a TV is common, everyone owns one or at least has seen one to know its NOT bad. Same goes for Music and everything else, as soon as enough People know its not as the Media tells us they find another scapegoat. Tv to Music and Music to Games, i wonder why they havent said THINKING is bad yet, seeing that many people dont even do that anymore, otherwise there would not be such hatespeeches and god knows what against something at all, unless really proven otherwise. So unless someone starts playing a Game and immidiatly goes on a killing spree the simple idea of it causing any violent behaviour is stupid, if not totally moronic.
So, in case someone expected a Flamepost here and didnt read much of this post, lets make it short. Guns dont kill People. People kill People WITH Guns (or knifes etc) therefore preventing them, especially mentally unstable people, to get a gun will lower said Crimerate, it wont prevent it altogether, but lower it. And yes there is a psychological switch also, killing someone with a gun is easy, its pointing and pulling the trigger. Using a Knife on the other hand, you have to get close to the victim, the victim does stand a fighting chance and can kill you (the attacker in this case) because of being lucky or being stronger whatever. Also looking someone in the Eyes when you stab them scarres the mind more then a simple point&click gunshot. If you want real Psychological Terror however, look at Military Hardware and how easy it is to exterminate thousands of People with the press of one Button.
EDIT: And no this is no rant or flame against any Person in here, Country or Group of People, its just my, somewhat objective (if it can be that, seeing its mine) Opinion on the Matter.
What I wonder is...why do all the people outside the US even care if people there are allowed to have guns or not? I mean, I don't prefer such regulations myself, but as long it's the US and not the place I live in, I can't care that much. Why others?
Because bashing the US has become very popular these days, be you a US citizen or outside of the US. Certainly my country has put itself out there and this is what happens. For all the guns and people we have in our country, we do not have a monopoly on crime or even violent crime. One need only look to all the atrocities and ethnic cleansing in Africa, much of it done with machetes by the way. Others parts of the world use explosives or improvised explosive devices for their killing. To my mind, nothing is more impersonal for killing than a bomb. Leave it somewhere and set it off, not even that hard to find info on how to make them.
As to why folks who don't actually live in the US rushing to judge us by our firearms laws, well all I can say is how "American" of you to do so
As to why folks who don't actually live in the US rushing to judge us by our firearms laws, well all I can say is how "American" of you to do so
Ok, so I basically see 2 arguments: the gun-advocates say they need the protection a firearm can offer, and you got the gun control-advocates, who say guns make it easy to kill people.
Now, my question is, what the hell is going on in the US, what the hell is so bad, that you need a firearm to protect yourself? I don't mean to say that no-one should have a gun, I'm just asking what's so bad about the neighbourhoods in the US which require the civilians to arm themselves, to not call the police?
Now, my question is, what the hell is going on in the US, what the hell is so bad, that you need a firearm to protect yourself? I don't mean to say that no-one should have a gun, I'm just asking what's so bad about the neighbourhoods in the US which require the civilians to arm themselves, to not call the police?
Hold up, those kids decided to kill because they were bullied to hard, not because of video games!REDPill357 said:
I know it's some sort of faux pas to quote oneself, but I think a quick blog entry from post-VT is again relevant:
Just sayin.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Even factoring in the columbine-style attacks, the vast majority of gun-deaths are perpetrated by those that have no idea what on earth "counter-strike" or even "quake" are.
Just sayin.