In the Prequels, the Confederates are actually the "good guys"

[Sniper Team 4]

Neither side in that war was really in the right. That was why the Emperor was able to come to power. It was such a twisted mess that it couldn't be clean cut. Do not forget, the Separatists (before they were called that) started the thing by blockading Naboo. Because they were greedy and wanted more money for their goods--and Palpatine convinced them to do it. Then, they invaded the planet and started killing people for no reason. Maybe other planets that eventually joined weren't evil, but the Trade Federation leaders are hardly the good guys.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Really now, the republic and empire are just pawns by the Jedi and Sith respectively to continue some decades long war for "balance" that cost millions of sentient lives and leave both sides under the yolk of tyranny. It is the Mandalorians that are truly free, and they can crush Jedi and Sith without reverting to a malevolent "force" for aid, like all true warriors should!

Might want to ask the Cathar about millions of sentient lives.

They take control of the clone army and launch a military attack in the middle of a delicate political situation, starting a war. Their justification? Rescuing two Jedi and a Senator who were caught red-handed spying.

Okay, you clearly missed some of the plot there.

The most important thing in the story, in galactic political terms, is the vote to invest emergency powers in the chancellor, thereby giving him total authority over the clone army and, presumably, the power to declare war without senate approval.

In fact, the suggestion seems to be that it's precisely because of what happens on Geonosis that the Jedi end up assuming leadership positions in the clone army. With the exception of Yoda, they clearly arrived separately out of a voluntary desire to help.

But since he doesn't subscribe to their religious views (He offered to help Anakin prevent his pregnant wife from dying, the fiend!), they decide to arrest him.

Except that this comparison falls down when you realize that their religion is very obviously real, and that misusing it is very obviously dangerous. Maybe ask any of those Imperial officers who got choked to death in the original trilogy how they feel about religious pluralism.

Windu's decision to try and execute Palpatine is one of the very few shades of grey in the Star Wars films. But it doesn't show that the Jedi are some kind of evil masterminds, in fact it's a blatant and clear violation of the Jedi system of ethics. It shows that Windu is willing to betray his own principles out of fear.

Certainly, it's a sign that he's actually somewhere on the dark path himself, but he's still not quite as far gone as the guy who likes torturing people to death slowly and painfully with his magical electricity.

The Sith (in the expanded universe) have a very interesting philosophy, which I guess is why people like them and where the potential for shades of grey comes in. The problem is that the actual depictions of Sith are all universally stupid evil to a ridiculous degree.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

While there are several clones that vice dissatisfaction at their lot in life, they are from EU sources. For the most part the clones are not really 'being forced to fight a war against their will,' you have to remember that they were raised from birth and had their DNA hard coded be loyal and fight for the Republic by the Kaminoans. Ironically it was the Jedi, the clones 'masters' that helped the clones with their individuality by treating them as humans rather than organic battle droids.

They are still sending million to their death without the least of consent in the act. For all we know the clones may have been lead to believe that upon the war's end, one way or another, what they would get is their freedom (which would make their extermination of the Jedi, who many have made personal relationships with, actually understandable instead of being an example of Lucas not understanding biology). I actually want to know why the Jedi are even generals if they are supposedly pacifist monks. I know there's probably some EU explanation, however it's never even hinted at in the movies.

Here's a question: what's the difference between a clone army and normal conscripts, from a moral perspective? It's glorified slavery in either case. You could make an argument about it being wrong to create sentient beings just to draft them into a military, but the thing is, the republic didn't do that, it was something Palpatine orchestrated behind the scenes. As far as the Republic was concerned, the clones already existed, they didn't have anything to do with their creation.

Now you can also argue that a draft is wrong, but you can't fight a truly massive war with an all volunteer army. It was wrong in Vietnam because the entire war was wrong, but the Clone Wars was a situation more like World War II, which also involved a draft even on the allied side. You don't hear much about it because, while there was a major student protest against joining the war in the first place[footnote]At least in the US, there was a major anti-war movement among college students who really didn't want to get drafted. It's kind of reminiscent of Vietnam when you get into that side of things, and of course most of the countries that later formed the allies had their own cases of people not wanting to go to war, because they remembered the last one.[/footnote], the necessity became apparent pretty quickly.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Star Wars has always been about allegories for real life wars, with the Original being more or less World War 2 in space and the Endor part of Jedi being Vietnam (at least that's what I've heard). Now it's easy to see how the Prequels are an allegory for the American Civil War, however if you think about it, apart from the few Jedi generals for the Republic and a few Confederate generals, it's the Republic which is evil and the Confederacy which is good, and here's my case:

I am sorry, what?
I never thought that the prequels were about the american civil war.
I think they are more about ancient history, mainly the punic war and Ceasars/augustus climb to power.
Think about it. The Republic is ruled by a SENATE, from one major planet/city(Rome) and is at war with a Trading power(Constantinople), which fields armies made by money (The mercenaries constantinople used to employ).
It started about one planet(Sicily).
In the time of need the senate decides to gives it's chancelor all the power, which is just what the romans did in times of need. They elected a dictator, which was something positive back then.
And then palpatine doesn't give up it's power and becomes emporer(Did i write that wrong? it feels wrong). Which is pretty much what caesar did with his civil war and becoming dictator for livetime. Of course he was directly killed after this, but it's still basically palpatine.

I just don't see the comparison to the american civil war. The repuplic weren't rebels and the federation was no giant imperium like england was back then. Thinking about it.
Aren't the original star wars movies much more like the american civil war, than world war 2? The allied forces in WW 2 were anything but rebels and Nazi Germany wanted to become a giant imperium, but certainly wasn't one yet.

You're getting the American civil war confused with the Revolutionary war. One was a successful revolution against England, the other was an unsuccessful rebellion by the Southern states, who called themselves the Confederate States of America[footnote]The independence held by those states was implied by the word "confederate"[/footnote], although usually you just hear them called the confederates or the confederacy. Lucas calling the bad guys the "Confederacy of Independent Systems" was a clear nod to the Civil War, at the very least.

As for the Original Trilogy, the political situation may not have had too much in common with World War II, but the space battles were effectively direct takeoffs of WWII air and sea battles, right down to the turrets on the Millennium Falcon, which were straight off of the large bombers. Also the Empire was a bunch of space Nazis, right down to the officer's uniforms and the shock troops being called "stormtroopers."

 

[Amaror]

You're getting the American civil war confused with the Revolutionary war. One was a successful revolution against England, the other was an unsuccessful rebellion by the Southern states, who called themselves the Confederate States of America[footnote]The independence held by those states was implied by the word "confederate"[/footnote], although usually you just hear them called the confederates or the confederacy. Lucas calling the bad guys the "Confederacy of Independent Systems" was a clear nod to the Civil War, at the very least.

As for the Original Trilogy, the political situation may not have had too much in common with World War II, but the space battles were effectively direct takeoffs of WWII air and sea battles, right down to the turrets on the Millennium Falcon, which were straight off of the large bombers. Also the Empire was a bunch of space Nazis, right down to the officer's uniforms and the shock troops being called "stormtroopers."

Ugh, how boring. The though that he copied ancient history, instead of boring "old" recent history was the one thing i held in favor for the prequels.
Dissappointing.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

You're getting the American civil war confused with the Revolutionary war. One was a successful revolution against England, the other was an unsuccessful rebellion by the Southern states, who called themselves the Confederate States of America[footnote]The independence held by those states was implied by the word "confederate"[/footnote], although usually you just hear them called the confederates or the confederacy. Lucas calling the bad guys the "Confederacy of Independent Systems" was a clear nod to the Civil War, at the very least.

As for the Original Trilogy, the political situation may not have had too much in common with World War II, but the space battles were effectively direct takeoffs of WWII air and sea battles, right down to the turrets on the Millennium Falcon, which were straight off of the large bombers. Also the Empire was a bunch of space Nazis, right down to the officer's uniforms and the shock troops being called "stormtroopers."

Ugh, how boring. The though that he copied ancient history, instead of boring "old" recent history was the one thing i held in favor for the prequels.
Dissappointing.

I'd say it's a little bit of both, really. Star Wars has always been this frankenstein monster made out of little bits of history and mythology from all over the planet and its history, not to mention stuff from movies and books Lucas personally enjoyed (like Dune and The Hidden Fortress). You don't see it as much with the prequels, but it's still there to that extent, at least.

 

[Iron Gix]

i see what your saying but Palpatine was working both sides and i don't think Lucas was that deep of a writer.

 

[Silvanus]

Despite Leia's claims of Alderaan's pacifism, Alderaan is clearly a highly pro-rebellion planet: both Leia and Bail Organa (two of the most senior members of the rebellion) hail from here.

Earth is clearly a highly communist planet: both Lenin and Fidel Castro (two of the most influential communists) hail from there.

What?

 

[Amaror]

Interesting but you should replace Constantinople with Carthage, Constantinople was capitol of the Eastern Roman Empire Cartage is the city from which the Punic people (or Carthaginians in general parlance) came hence the name Punic Wars.

Oh damn it.
Yeah i know i know. I meant to write carthage, but constantinople came out somehow and i didn't doublecheck it.
Probebly because i have been trying to form the roman empire in EU 4 lately...

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

You're forgetting one key fact in the whole thing: The Separatists were started by Palpatine in form of Darth Sideous. Then Dooku "took over" directing the forces but he was still taking orders from Palpatine. So the whole thing was being orchestrated by the Sith, and the forces working for them weren't exactly decent people to begin with. The Trade Federation rather than negotiate with the Jedi in Ep. I straight up murdered their ship's crew by blowing up the ship and attempted to kill Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon by way of gas and droid in order to keep quiet their absolutely illegal blockade, invasion and hostage taking of Naboo all to bully them into signing an agreement that totally screwed them. There was NO noble intention there, just a scheme to keep Coruscant out of Naboo long enough to get their way.
Ep. 2 - Dooku has already been quoted so yeah there's that. Plus the attempted assassination of Amidala by a bounty hunter working for Fett who was working for Dooku/Palpatine and thus an act of war because Dooku was the commander of the Separatist forces. Clearly again not a good guy thing.
In the end the Republic only got involved when it was clear there was a valid threat of war from the Separatists (remember in Ep. 1 the Senate wasn't even sure they wanted to get involved with the Naboo issue) and only because they had a genetically engineered army of clones to add troops to their ranks. At the time the Separatists had droids, which were loyal (programming), disposable and logistically perfect as they didn't need to eat, drink or sleep whereas the Republic didn't have much of a military. The arrival of a clone army willing to fight for the Republic was a miracle to the Republic who otherwise might have got wiped off the map. As it was when the clones went to Geonosis it was in response to Kenobi's message that the Sep's were planning an assault on the Republic.
Also the use of the clones is up for debate on ethics as since the Republic didn't actually have them created, it was Palpatine manipulating behind the scenes again. Remember the Republic and Palpatine weren't the same thing then, only after he declared himself Emperor did it become open and apparent, right down to him eventually disbanding the Senate. Even with the clones, the Republic were getting their asses handed to them by the Seps until Kenobi killed Greivous and Anakin killed Dooku. Effectively cutting off the two heads threw it into disarray.
But again in no way were the Seps good guys. They didn't have noble intentions when breaking off, they were run by two people who were already despicable folk to begin with (one was a rogue Jedi the other was pretty much the definition of war criminal) and they weren't shying from using any tactic imaginable to get their way.
So I disagree wholeheartedly. They shared not a thing with the Rebellion from the original trilogy, who were fighting against a horrendously oppressive government, a unilaterally evil dictator (the Emperor) and his thug enforcer (Vader) and corrupt military and governors (Moff Tarkin). The Republic prior to Palpatine's open ascension wasn't oppressive just somewhat ineffective and slow due to there literally being 1000's of Senators to deal with, most of whom were different races and some with species vs. species conflicts. It may not have worked great but it wasn't committing absolute civil rights violations and war crimes (Tarkin blowing up Alderaan with the EMPIRE sanctioned, developed and built Death Star).
Yeah the Separatists might have been pawns but they were willing to go along with whatever to get what they wanted out of the deal.
The Rebellion was only fighting because diplomacy had failed and it literally was fight or die for them. The Rebellion were the true Underdogs and the true Good Guys out of the series, and using them as an example the Separatists of the Clone Wars era are at best perpetrators and War Criminals, not heroes at all.

 

[RJ 17]

1)The Republic made the war necessary.

Not really. The point you raise about all the time given to Naboo while other planets voices go unheard is lacking context. The reason so much time is granted to the princess is because her planet has been taken over...that's a very serious issue and one worthy of the time given to the planet's representatives.

2) The Confederate army of droids and fleet was a deterrent for war, and was not meant to be used.

The fact that Episode 1 revolves around the fact that the Trade Federation uses its droid army to invade and occupy Naboo goes against this. This is why the princess has to go to the Senate in the first place: to plead for assistance in liberating her planet.

3) The Republic attacked first.

See above. Phantom Menace revolves around the fact that the Trade Federation invaded and annexed the planet of Naboo. They weren't just out there minding their own business and protecting their trade routes, they struck first by conquering a planet, thus necessitating the creation of a Republic Military.

4) The Confederacy was the underdog the whole time.

I'm going to have to argue against this, seeing as how the droid army successfully attacks the very heart of the Republic and kidnaps the Chancellor.

5) The Republic uses slaves, and lots of them.

Ehhhhhhhh, now you're getting into a debate of "what's the definition of a slave?" You said it yourself: the clones were bred for combat. In a way, they're no better than the droid army itself which was "built" for combat. Though the clones are actual living people, they weren't born. They had no mother or father, they were created in a bunch of cloning vats and they were created for a singular purpose: to fight in the military. If you were to ask a clone if it thought it was a slave, it'd say no, calling itself a soldier instead. The point is that the clones are created lifeforms given a singular task: fighting. They have no frame of reference outside what they're taught in the cloning facilities. Similarly, the droids wouldn't consider themselves slaves (and they actually seem to have much more personality than the clones in many cases) seeing as how they were specifically programmed for combat. The CIS fires up the droid factories and pumps out a bunch of droids made specifically for battle. The Republic fires up the cloning facilities and pumps out a bunch of clones made specifically for battle. What's the difference?

In the end, though, you seem to be missing the bigger picture: Emperor Palpatine was playing both sides of the war. He was the mastermind behind the CIS, posing as the Sith Lord pulling the strings. For the Republic he was the Chancellor (and later Emperor) who was granted all his power thanks to a motion made by Senator Binks. Why did the CIS attack Naboo? Because he pushed for them to do so. Why? So he could get away with creating an army for the Republic. Why? So he could have a an army at his command when he converted the Republic to the Empire. Both the Republic forces and the CIS forces were pawns in a game of chess that Palpatine was essentially playing by himself, allowing him to decide who would lose and who would win. In this way, BOTH sides could be considered "the bad guys" seeing as how both sides had the same villain as their leader. Palpatine directed the CIS to be villains which would in turn force the Republic to elevate him to a seat of ultimate power. Once that was done, Palpatine no longer had need of the CIS and so he used the might of his new army to crush them, making him out to be a beloved leader and hero.

 

[Puzzlenaut]

Despite Leia's claims of Alderaan's pacifism, Alderaan is clearly a highly pro-rebellion planet: both Leia and Bail Organa (two of the most senior members of the rebellion) hail from here.

Earth is clearly a highly communist planet: both Lenin and Fidel Castro (two of the most influential communists) hail from there.

What?

Well to put it another way, one hundred percent of every character we know from the planet is pro-rebellion. And if to successive leaders of Earth were communists, you'd probably be fairly correct in saying Earth was a communist planet xD

 

[Brian Tams]

Both the Republic and the Confederates were under the control of the same individual. The whole war was just an excuse for Palpatine to convert the Galactic Republic into a Galactic Empire, as well as crushing the Jedi Order.

Really, there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in that war. Both were equally duped.

 

[faefrost]

Star Wars has always been about allegories for real life wars, with the Original being more or less World War 2 in space and the Endor part of Jedi being Vietnam (at least that's what I've heard). Now it's easy to see how the Prequels are an allegory for the American Civil War, however if you think about it, apart from the few Jedi generals for the Republic and a few Confederate generals, it's the Republic which is evil and the Confederacy which is good, and here's my case:

I am sorry, what?
I never thought that the prequels were about the american civil war.
I think they are more about ancient history, mainly the punic war and Ceasars/augustus climb to power.
Think about it. The Republic is ruled by a SENATE, from one major planet/city(Rome) and is at war with a Trading power(Constantinople), which fields armies made by money (The mercenaries constantinople used to employ).
It started about one planet(Sicily).
In the time of need the senate decides to gives it's chancelor all the power, which is just what the romans did in times of need. They elected a dictator, which was something positive back then.
And then palpatine doesn't give up it's power and becomes emporer(Did i write that wrong? it feels wrong). Which is pretty much what caesar did with his civil war and becoming dictator for livetime. Of course he was directly killed after this, but it's still basically palpatine.

I just don't see the comparison to the american civil war. The repuplic weren't rebels and the federation was no giant imperium like england was back then. Thinking about it.
Aren't the original star wars movies much more like the american civil war, than world war 2? The allied forces in WW 2 were anything but rebels and Nazi Germany wanted to become a giant imperium, but certainly wasn't one yet.

You're getting the American civil war confused with the Revolutionary war. One was a successful revolution against England, the other was an unsuccessful rebellion by the Southern states, who called themselves the Confederate States of America[footnote]The independence held by those states was implied by the word "confederate"[/footnote], although usually you just hear them called the confederates or the confederacy. Lucas calling the bad guys the "Confederacy of Independent Systems" was a clear nod to the Civil War, at the very least.

As for the Original Trilogy, the political situation may not have had too much in common with World War II, but the space battles were effectively direct takeoffs of WWII air and sea battles, right down to the turrets on the Millennium Falcon, which were straight off of the large bombers. Also the Empire was a bunch of space Nazis, right down to the officer's uniforms and the shock troops being called "stormtroopers."

You are all right. The Prequels and Particularly the Clone Wars and the rise of the Empire all pull from all of those sources, and some of the ethics and rationalizations from all of them. But the OP is correct the American Civil War is probably the biggest influence. BUT it really does stem more from the actual American Civil War and not simply the more fantasized "The Civil War was fought over slavery". The American Civil War began and was fought over economics. Trade routes and free trade. Remote Agricultural and raw materials producing states seeking free'er markets for their products vs Industrialized central states controlling the means of production and seeking to protect their source of materials and market for goods. Slavery didn't come into it until the second year of the war. When put that way the South almost looks reasonable, doesn't it? Until you factor in the brutal culture of slavery? So it is a greyer conflict than most realize, and the folks at Lucasfilms did a pretty good job of mirroring some of the subtleties in it. The Star Wars Confederacy actually had a lot of valid points. They simply sought freedom and self determination. But they also had some horrible things baked into their equation. Heck Palpatine's assumption of power has an almost Lincoln like nature. There are some wonderful parellels to be made, and some really interesting story elements. If you ever want to see them a bit better explored in Star Wars, then sit down and watch the animated The Clone Wars series from Cartoon Network (taking care to selectively skip any Jar Jar, Padme or C3PO focused episode). You will be amazed at the level of depth they added to the great Galactic Wars.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Star Wars has always been about allegories for real life wars, with the Original being more or less World War 2 in space and the Endor part of Jedi being Vietnam (at least that's what I've heard). Now it's easy to see how the Prequels are an allegory for the American Civil War, however if you think about it, apart from the few Jedi generals for the Republic and a few Confederate generals, it's the Republic which is evil and the Confederacy which is good, and here's my case:

I am sorry, what?
I never thought that the prequels were about the american civil war.
I think they are more about ancient history, mainly the punic war and Ceasars/augustus climb to power.
Think about it. The Republic is ruled by a SENATE, from one major planet/city(Rome) and is at war with a Trading power(Constantinople), which fields armies made by money (The mercenaries constantinople used to employ).
It started about one planet(Sicily).
In the time of need the senate decides to gives it's chancelor all the power, which is just what the romans did in times of need. They elected a dictator, which was something positive back then.
And then palpatine doesn't give up it's power and becomes emporer(Did i write that wrong? it feels wrong). Which is pretty much what caesar did with his civil war and becoming dictator for livetime. Of course he was directly killed after this, but it's still basically palpatine.

I just don't see the comparison to the american civil war. The repuplic weren't rebels and the federation was no giant imperium like england was back then. Thinking about it.
Aren't the original star wars movies much more like the american civil war, than world war 2? The allied forces in WW 2 were anything but rebels and Nazi Germany wanted to become a giant imperium, but certainly wasn't one yet.

You're getting the American civil war confused with the Revolutionary war. One was a successful revolution against England, the other was an unsuccessful rebellion by the Southern states, who called themselves the Confederate States of America[footnote]The independence held by those states was implied by the word "confederate"[/footnote], although usually you just hear them called the confederates or the confederacy. Lucas calling the bad guys the "Confederacy of Independent Systems" was a clear nod to the Civil War, at the very least.

As for the Original Trilogy, the political situation may not have had too much in common with World War II, but the space battles were effectively direct takeoffs of WWII air and sea battles, right down to the turrets on the Millennium Falcon, which were straight off of the large bombers. Also the Empire was a bunch of space Nazis, right down to the officer's uniforms and the shock troops being called "stormtroopers."

You are all right. The Prequels and Particularly the Clone Wars and the rise of the Empire all pull from all of those sources, and some of the ethics and rationalizations from all of them. But the OP is correct the American Civil War is probably the biggest influence. BUT it really does stem more from the actual American Civil War and not simply the more fantasized "The Civil War was fought over slavery". The American Civil War began and was fought over economics. Trade routes and free trade. Remote Agricultural and raw materials producing states seeking free'er markets for their products vs Industrialized central states controlling the means of production and seeking to protect their source of materials and market for goods. Slavery didn't come into it until the second year of the war. When put that way the South almost looks reasonable, doesn't it? Until you factor in the brutal culture of slavery? So it is a greyer conflict than most realize, and the folks at Lucasfilms did a pretty good job of mirroring some of the subtleties in it. The Star Wars Confederacy actually had a lot of valid points. They simply sought freedom and self determination. But they also had some horrible things baked into their equation. Heck Palpatine's assumption of power has an almost Lincoln like nature. There are some wonderful parellels to be made, and some really interesting story elements. If you ever want to see them a bit better explored in Star Wars, then sit down and watch the animated The Clone Wars series from Cartoon Network (taking care to selectively skip any Jar Jar, Padme or C3PO focused episode). You will be amazed at the level of depth they added to the great Galactic Wars.

Like I said in my last post, Star Wars is a frankenstein franchise, made up of bits and pieces of everything. I'd never seen the Lincoln parallel until you mentioned it[footnote]Hitler, yes. President Bush, hell yes, although the parallels between the moves Bush made after 9/11 and the way Palpatine rose to power aren't quite as obvious or biting when you watch it today as it was in the theater at the start of his second term.[/footnote], but put that way it /is/ there, if for no other reason than because Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the war.

Edit: Also, yes. The CGI Clone Wars cartoon is one of, if not the best on screen Star Wars property since Return of the Jedi. It's a shame that so many people wrote it off without giving it a chance because of their nostalgia for the 2D one done by Genndy Tartakovsky, which was pretty and cool, but was mostly 2 hours of well animated and choreographed action scenes with very little in the way of plot stringing them together. The CGI Clone Wars cartoon was well written, too. Better written than the prequels themselves by a long shot, in my opinion.

 

[Sidmen]

I'd just like to jump in here for a second and point out that the Trade Federation, which blockaded then invaded Naboo, wasn't a member of the CIS until years after that action. It wasn't until the Queen of Naboo became a Senator (WTF?) that Nute Gunray offered to support the Confederacy in exchange for Amadalla's death. Which was a pretty high price to pay for a failed assassination attempt (seriously, the dude could've just thrown up a 100 billion credit bounty on her head).

But yeah, one of the most offensive things I blame the prequels for is its ham-handed treatment of antagonists. The films do a lot to set up this pretty sympathetic separatist movement only to have its visible members be Saturday morning cartoon villains. The cartoon even had a few episodes where they show the Confederacy of Independent Systems' homeworlds. They're nothing like the small cabal that somehow manages to lead their robot army.