Incompetent Protagonists

[ThePurpleStuff]

I understand the need for a stupid protagonist in the beginning of a story, you don't want him killing the main villain or threat in the first few episodes. You have to drag it out to make it last, but this is what you do with that spare time. Character development with the main character and side characters, growing stronger from their failures. Or if they're a cocky asshole who thinks they can do anything, have them get their asses kicked until they learn otherwise.

There are plenty of ways to make the fucking character we're supposed to grow attached to not be a useless ball and chain on the entire plot as a whole. Competent writing for the sake of telling a story and not pandering or trying to sell toys and other garbage.

Like have a story of two brothers, one is good, one is bad and he becomes the main villain. Instead of the villain depending on minions hes right there with you so you have to grow attached to both the brothers. The bad brother is just trying to help his bumbling idiot of a brother with good intentions to grow the hell up and mature like he has. But hes doing it in ways that are extreme, like killing people or destroying their homes and resources. Meaning he has to learn that hes not invulnerable and fight his brother to save everyone he cares about. Just, something character driven and not dependent on prophecies or mcguffins.

Sort of why I liked Avengers as much as I did, because of Loki and Thor, even though they're not blood related. Just wish it wasn't all because of that stupid blue, glowing block, whatever its name was, mcguffin crap.

 

[Worgen]

Kirito from Sword Art Online.

He get people killed directly threw his actions and inactions for the whole first half of the show. Then, in the second half, when he has incriminating evidence against the antagonist for that arc, instead of going to the police, he hoops into a game where for all he knows he's going to be trapped forever because he has no control over the program that the antagonist has complete control of (this was in the first episode of that arc, mind you). And then, to top it all off, he spends days, whole days, of his 6 days to accomplish what he is doing getting involved in the politics of a video game instead of doing what he entered the game to do in the first place.

Oh yeah, he also took a system which killed 4000 people because of how it was designed, and RELEASED THE SOURCE CODE FOR IT ONLINE TO EVERYONE! He has made it so that another incident where thousands is likely, not possible but outright likely, to occur again. This does couple in with the government being incompetent, since the equipment used to run the programs has not been banned despite the fact in any realistic setting they would (though even if not in a realistic setting they also would have their market collapse since no sane person would touch them).

And to top it all off, after becoming a sadistic monster who tortures someone to near death (the guy was a bastard, but still what the hell? He'd already won, the guy was going to be heading to jail, after the hospital visit he already needed by that point) he then recreates the program that nearly killed him multiple times, was his prison for 2 years, killed 4000 people and has caused him to have PTSD, just so he could "finish" it.

Our hero, ladies and gentlemen.

Sword art online was pretty bad, if you want a much better version of the whole trapped in an mmo thing, check out Log Horizon. It's actually got likable characters and some internal constancy.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

To everyone complaining about Shinji Ikari:

Did I mention he's 14 fucking years old?

Does that make it better? Plenty of anime out there is about characters that are around the same age who are far more interesting. Asuka was the same age but she was a far more interesting character. Attack on Titan's protagonist is only 15, and even though Erin isn't the greatest protagonist, he's infinitely better than Shinji.

It'd be different if Shinji had some kind of character development, but he doesn't. By the end of the series he's still whining about the same shit he was whining about in episode 1. He refuses to change and stagnates in his own self pity.

OT: See the above rant.

Oh yeah, and also Vaan. Sure, Tidus whines a bit but at least there's a reason for him to be there. Why the fuck is Vaan rubbing elbows with sky pirates, renegade knights, and deposed royalty? I'll let you know if FFXII ever gives me an answer.

 

[ThePurpleStuff]

Oh yeah, and also Vaan. Sure, Tidus whines a bit but at least there's a reason for him to be there. Why the fuck is Vaan rubbing elbows sky pirates, renegade knights, and deposed royalty? I'll let you know if FFXII ever gives me an answer.

Only reason Tidus, Vaan or even Lightening really exist and still exist, is because they're popular in Japan. So we in the west have to deal with their annoying, mopey uselessness. In Japan they like such characters I guess, when we have a different view entirely on what we want here, but Japanese developers don't know that. They don't know what we want.

Though you probably already knew this, but still trying to clarify for those who mentioned the FF characters.

This video is rather informative.

 

[Asclepion]

To everyone complaining about Shinji Ikari:

Did I mention he's 14 fucking years old?

Does that make it better? Plenty of anime out there is about characters that are around the same age who are far more interesting. Asuka was the same age but she was a far more interesting character. Attack on Titan's protagonist is only 15, and even though Erin isn't the greatest protagonist, he's infinitely better than Shinji.

It'd be different if Shinji had some kind of character development, but he doesn't. By the end of the series he's still whining about the same shit he was whining about in episode 1. He refuses to change and stagnates in his own self pity.

Shinji isn't a soldier. He's an ordinary, introverted kid who accomplishes some incredible things with the odds stacked against him. He kills Shamshel with a knife whilst *impaled* on it. He jumps into a volcano to save Asuka. He attacks Zeruel unarmed with a damaged EVA-01 even after it has torn EVAs 00 and 02 to hell. And while at first it may have been about gaining his father's apprvoal, by the end he's piloting solely out of a sense of duty.

 

[Zontar]

@Worgen, I'm well aware of Log Horizon and quite enjoy it. Funny enough, the show is actually classified as an educational one and is allowed to have regular broadcasting time when children can watch it, instead of the 24:00-28:00 hours boradcast shows like SAO get.

 

[Hades]

Kratos from god of war was downright incompetent. Ares, Zeus, Gaia, Athena, is there a major character that doesn't end up manipulating Kratos for their own game and playing him for a fool? In the end it also aren't the villain's but Kratos himself who ends up destroying the world though he barely cares so i'm not sure if that counts.

Conner Kenway was a weird kind of incompetent. Everything Connor involved himself in ended for the worse and when faced with more logical standpoints he can only go ''b-but freedom!'' yet somehow i get the feeling the game is trying to portray someone who's being right.

The main character from kingdom is handed the solution to everything on a silver pattern but he willingly rejects his happy ending. As a result an evil king comes to power and Jerusalem falls. Great job!

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

To everyone complaining about Shinji Ikari:

Did I mention he's 14 fucking years old?

Does that make it better? Plenty of anime out there is about characters that are around the same age who are far more interesting. Asuka was the same age but she was a far more interesting character. Attack on Titan's protagonist is only 15, and even though Erin isn't the greatest protagonist, he's infinitely better than Shinji.

It'd be different if Shinji had some kind of character development, but he doesn't. By the end of the series he's still whining about the same shit he was whining about in episode 1. He refuses to change and stagnates in his own self pity.

Shinji isn't a soldier. He's an ordinary, introverted kid who accomplishes some incredible things with the odds stacked against him. He kills Shamshel with a knife whilst *impaled* on it. He jumps into a volcano to save Asuka. He attacks Zeruel unarmed with a damaged EVA-01 even after it has torn EVAs 00 and 02 to hell. And while at first it may have been about gaining his father's apprvoal, by the end he's piloting solely out of a sense of duty.

And all of that would be great if it actually amounted to anything. But it doesn't. Shinji's character resets at the start of every Angel attack or he finds a new reason to not want to pilot the Eva. Shinji exists to cater to reclusive introverts that want to feel better about not changing. After everything you mentioned above, Shinji should have evolved as a character by the end of the series, because normal people would after risking their lives.

Using another teen from a different mecha series, Kamille Bidan from Zeta Gundam starts off as a psychopathic introverted child (like Shinji), but throw in a few dead comrades, love interests, and family members and he begins to mature not just as a soldier, but as a person. I don't recall him molesting any unconscious women.

 

[Zen Bard]

I'll also second Walter White. His arrogance is a sign of his incompetence as a drug lord. He's got no power base, no protection and no credibility because he cannot have a working relationship or recognize someone who's smarter than he is about how to run a drug ring. His interactions with Gus Fring show just how incompetent he really is. Yeah Walt can cook meth like a boss, but he's just a bumbling fool right to the end.

Walter White's tragic flaw is his own ego. The whole scenario with Fring is a great example. If he had just continued to work for Gus, everything would have been fine. But he was simply too damn arrogant to be someone's ***** (self referential pun intended). After all, he's Heisenberg...the greatest meth kingpin named after a 20th century physicist in the world! How dare Gus not take his ideas seriously?!

Not sure I'd call him incompetent, though. For a high school chemistry teacher, he did a pretty good job amassing a ton of cash. He ran a pretty solid operation with Pinkman on distribution and Mike as the muscle. And partnering with Lydia was a genius stroke in taking it international. Add to that how he was pretty much the John Constantine of meth - practically everyone who got near him wound up dead - and you have one very dangerous man.

No, he was pretty competent at what he set out to do. He was just too damn arrogant to care about the risks or consequences.

 

[Padwolf]

Alright, I'm going to have to go with the odd one. Now, I don't know if anyone knows, but Stephenie Meyer's film production group made a film called Austenland. The idea of it interested me enough to make me watch it. Now, the protagonist in this film is absolutely ridiculous. She is always overwhelmed at everything. Now in a way, if the developers thought "Hey, she loves the Regency era and sensibility was a big thing for women in that era, so lets have her be overwhelmed by everything to reflect that." Then I could get behind it. I really could. But nothing in the film ever showed that this was the case, so it seemed as though the protagonist bumbled along most of the way, trying to do things for herself and just looking like an idiot most of the time. The plot was so damn predictable, I couldn't stand it.

 

[Dalisclock]

To everyone complaining about Shinji Ikari:

Did I mention he's 14 fucking years old?

Not to mention the fact nobody ever tells him anything about what's going on.

At one point, He asks Asuka why are they fighting angels. "Angels are messangers from God, so why are right fighting them?" Her oh so helpful reply is "If someone is attacking you, you have to fight back. Are you stupid or something?"

Which merely begs the questions "Why are angels trying to murder us?" I can't remember if he ever got an answer to that, because the audience barely got one. It doesn't help that they are actually angels and it's not a clever name.

The third rebuild movie just makes it worse, with everyone treating Shinji like crap but nobody bothering to tell him why. More of a "You know what he did". Then they're surprised when he decides to leave.

If you practically draft someone and expect them to fight lovecraftian monsters all while being told if you fail, everyone is going to die, it kind of helps if they know what the point of it is.

It also doesn't help that Shinji gets yelled at pretty much no matter what he does and treated like crap by Gendo. The whole scene at the cemetery is a great example. They meet there, talk about dead mom and then Gendo leaves him there while getting a ride back to Nerve in a futuristic helicopter. He doesn't bother to give Shinji a ride back, despite the fact they work in the same building.

Yeah, Shinji is annoying, but it's not like there's no reason for it. He's not Holden Caulfield, who complains all the time for no reason at all. He's a child soldier who didn't have much self esteem to begin with and he's routinely forced into situations that would give most soldiers PTSD.

 

[lord canti]

Square Enix seems to have quite a few that fit this bill

Edge from Star Ocean the Last Hope. Everything he did he F'ed up, at least for the first....90% of the game. He blew up Earth....well A Earth.

Rush from the Last Remnant. This guy defines the word "doofus." Even though he is the main character, he has very little impact on the story (ie you can cut him out completely and nothing really changes until the very end). Thankfully, Lord david (whom the story revolves around) is a great character. Rush is so incompetent, that when he goes to rescue his sister, she has to rescue him while she is still a hostage and thereby blow her best chance to free herself.

Tidus from FF 10

Vaan from FF12, although he is the most tolerable of the list.

Damnit, ninja'd! I didn't think anyone else would remember the Last Remnant.

OT: Eren Jaeger from Attack on Titan. No where near as talented as the rest of the cast and

Spoiler

He's barely controllable in his titan form, especially compared to other shifters.

All he's really good at is getting angry and not giving up.

of course he cant control it compared to the other shifters because the other shifters have had years to learn it. Also, Eren is a lot more messed up mentally than the other ones are as well.

 

[Callate]

Orange is the New Black. My friends and I just watched episode 1 of season 2 (having watched all of season 1) and said, "Okay, that's enough."

It didn't help that the show was going out of its way to create contrived situations for Piper, and it's long garnered more interest from its side characters than its alleged lead. But, just... Eughhhhhh.

 

[Someone Depressing]

This is probably only going to make sense to a few people, because Rule of Rose is like the holy grail's unicorn cousin, but..

Jennifer. I try to like her. Not once does she ask, "Why are you fucking children running this blimp? Do you know why we're in a blimp? Who's playing that fucking violin? There are monsters completely over infesting this place, by the way. Also, why is a suspected pedophile running a blimp-orphanage... thing? Why is there an orphanage in a blimp? Is my dog real? Are you real? Why are you such a sexy 12 year old? What the fuck is going on? Why can the maid only die once via crotch attacks with a croquet thingy but the pedophile guy keeps dying and coming back to life? Can someone explain this to me?" despite the fact that the whole game revolves around these questions. Her only vocalisations range from

AAAAGH - hit by enemy. While covering her eyes. Genius.
I'LL KILL YOU, YOU STUPID ***** - not exact wording, but you get the point.
Brown! - calling da widdle puppy

Jennifer is not a bad character. She's an interesting character, and she's likable in that learning about her backstory (the whole point of the game) is engaging. But she's just.. so... damn... incompetent.

Oh, yeah, and she covers her eyes during combat. I'm serious.

 

[Beffudled Sheep_v1legacy]

This is probably only going to make sense to a few people, because Rule of Rose is like the holy grail's unicorn cousin, but..

Jennifer. I try to like her. Not once does she ask, "Why are you fucking children running this blimp? Do you know why we're in a blimp? Who's playing that fucking violin? There are monsters completely over infesting this place, by the way. Also, why is a suspected pedophile running a blimp-orphanage... thing? Why is there an orphanage in a blimp? Is my dog real? Are you real? Why are you such a sexy 12 year old? What the fuck is going on? Why can the maid only die once via crotch attacks with a croquet thingy but the pedophile guy keeps dying and coming back to life? Can someone explain this to me?" despite the fact that the whole game revolves around these questions. Her only vocalisations range from

AAAAGH - hit by enemy. While covering her eyes. Genius.
I'LL KILL YOU, YOU STUPID ***** - not exact wording, but you get the point.
Brown! - calling da widdle puppy

Jennifer is not a bad character. She's an interesting character, and she's likable in that learning about her backstory (the whole point of the game) is engaging. But she's just.. so... damn... incompetent.

Oh, yeah, and she covers her eyes during combat. I'm serious.

I always figured she covered her eyes because she was just plain terrified of the monsters she was facing.
Cuz be honest now, those Imps were definitely creepy. I know I'd be scared if I saw one in real life.

 

[Stu35]

Tidus from FF 10

I don't see how he was incompetent...

Spoiler: FFX Spoilers

Without him, Sin would never have ultimately been defeated for good, if he wasn't there, the cycle would haqve continued, he was the one who challenged Yunalesca and her Final Aeon bullshit and ultimately saved the world from Yu Yevon, Yuna (or the rest of the cast, bar Auron) would have tried to do anything remotely different to stop sin.

Love him or hate him (most hate his guts) he was the reason Yuna lived and the reason Spira was freed from Sin. I don't see how that is incompetent.

Not to mention his Sphere Grid makes him a fucking beast yo.

Yeah I always thought they did Tidus quite well all things considered - his was an interesting way of getting a character into the world who could question everything (thus allowing the player to gain knowledge about the world - Tidus wasn't from Spira, therefore he had a legitimate reason to ask about things that any child would know).

He was a whiny, annoying, effeminate prick, but it just wouldn't be final fantasy if the protagonist wasn't a whiny, annoying effeminate prick. I certainly wouldn't say he was incompetent.


Now, Harry Potter was a classic of incompetent protagonists. I actively despise the whole Harry Potter series (even insofar as I own every bloody book and have seen all the films) because Harry simply did not deserve to live.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Shinn Asuka from Gundam Seed Destiny, while Kira, the one from the first show is the Reluctant Warrior, and become a very well-rounded character, Shinn is just...Well, he is a red-blooded jerkass. Really, it's bad, and actually it kept getting worse.

I HATED that guy. My favourite scene from Gundam SEED Destiny is when Athron punches him in the face.

 

[Legomaniac91_v1legacy]

I have a particular dislike of Kratos from God of War 2 onward. In the first game, his problems and anger were legitimate. Yes, his vengeance against Ares was justified and the gods did kinda screw him over a bit at the end. But, the only lesson he learns from that is "revenge and violence solves everything!" In God of War 2 he becomes as bad, if not worse than, his predecessor and Zeus rightly punishes him for it. Now Kratos could have used this opportunity to reflect on how big of a dick he became, but nope its "RRRAGH! ZEUS MUST DIE!!!" Even when he has the ability to go back to any point in his life (including a few points that could have saved his family) he just goes back to kill Zeus. All he accomplishes is getting the one goddess who helped him killed and eventually causing the Apocalypse.

 

[Vault101]

WHAAAAAAT!?

*spits drink*

Okay, okay, it's been a while since I read it. A long while. But, uh... doesn't she shame a guy into suicide? A guy she knew full well was mentally and emotionally unstable? An act for which she shows zero remorse?

Oh, and doesn't she get people sent to shock therapy as punishment? (As opposed to, y'know, therapy.)

Of course, that's on top of being thoroughly unpleasant and abusing her power throughout.

it was the movie and mostly my first impressions....mabye I just didn't grasp subtlety and expected her to me some Umbridge esque ***** literally carrying an axe around or something

 

[ExDeath730]

Not sure if the reference to Warhammer was intentional, but...

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/3886999/1/Shinji-and-Warhammer40k

If you haven't heard of this before... you may be in for some fun.

Oh my god...This is awesome, i mean...Really, thanks, just finished the first chapter and it looks like it's going to be a great read!

Just one thing about Shinji, the problem with him, is that he got a lot of potential, he does some really badass stuff in the show, but...He never develops as a character, he always returns to the status quo, and in the end he is the one who causes the apocalypse. So yeah, the entire thing ends in an Epic Fail. Shinji is made to be a deconstruction of the Mecha anime kid hero, the thing about the other heros, is that they usually mature in their shows, Shinji doesn't.

I HATED that guy. My favourite scene from Gundam SEED Destiny is when Athron punches him in the face.

I loved how he lost to Athrum in the final fight, i mean, since the start of the second half he was acting really smug and arrogant. So it was awesome how the moment when Athrum decided to go all out he destroyed Shinn's Mecha that easily along with his pride.