Indie Dev: "Sometimes It's Okay to Steal My Games"
- Thread starter Tom Goldman
- Start date
This is a classic example, of indy vs industry. Small time people that do things out of love and make a few bucks on the side do not have tons of development costs and overhead. Be it games, music, movies some of the smaller guys do not mind a bit of piracy it gets their stuff out there among people that would not otherwise hear it, see it, play it.
I remember a ways back a small time movie maker that wrote a thank you letter to some of the bigger torrent sites thanking them for carrying his movie and how it got him all kinds of exposure and his name out there that he never would have gotten otherwise, and generated a few sales of his movie to boot.
Not like these people have ad agencies and marketing firms getting their products to people.
And his points about cost of living, is 100% true. Many companies do not factor in cost of living, blizzard and microsoft do to a degree and adjust their products to a level that fits standard of living differences to help combat rampant piracy in those areas, where bootleg dirt cheap copies are often sold for dollars in stalls on the streets.
But if this guy made it big i bet his tune would change cause it seems to change everyone once they get sucked into that corporate world.
I remember a ways back a small time movie maker that wrote a thank you letter to some of the bigger torrent sites thanking them for carrying his movie and how it got him all kinds of exposure and his name out there that he never would have gotten otherwise, and generated a few sales of his movie to boot.
Not like these people have ad agencies and marketing firms getting their products to people.
And his points about cost of living, is 100% true. Many companies do not factor in cost of living, blizzard and microsoft do to a degree and adjust their products to a level that fits standard of living differences to help combat rampant piracy in those areas, where bootleg dirt cheap copies are often sold for dollars in stalls on the streets.
But if this guy made it big i bet his tune would change cause it seems to change everyone once they get sucked into that corporate world.
Hmm... If you pirate a game that's so old, it's hard to find it and a working console it plays on anymore, is it still bad? Because I am so guilty of that.
You know, I don't see how this could be 'wrong' if they're not offering a modern digital distribution of it (like the PSX games on the PSN). I've seen a lot of unreasonable (read: "fanatical") anti-piracy folks claim downloading old ROMs of discontinued games from discontinued systems is hurting developers, but I don't see how it can help them if you're just paying some eBay seller $80 that the devs won't see anyway.Android2137 said:
If you liked Avernum, you NEED to play the Exile games. Same developer, they're in the 'old games' section of their website.craddoke said:
(spiderweb software if you didn't know)
This guy in particular knows what he's talking about. The Avernum series has a true spirit to its writing that's absent in most other games. The games are ugly, complex, and not user-friendly, and yet they have this appeal to them that big-budget games just don't have. Considering they're completely made by this one man, it's just plain astounding.
I do agree that there are certain exceptions to the statement that "all piracy is bad". But I also think that people tend to always think that they fall under these exceptions, even when it is clearly not the case.
Far too many people use the "games cost too much" argument, which is so flawed I won't entertain it further here. Others say that they will always end up buying every pirated game they "like", which is equally problematic (If you played through a bad game, you still effectively stole an experience that was meant to be paid for. I've been to restaurants I didn't particularly care for, but I would never finish my entire meal and then refuse to pay for it, regardless of how little I like it.).
What I'm trying to say (and semi-failing, since I'm very tired right now) is that many pirates will always put themselves in the "exception" category. "No," they say, "I'm going to be the one who sticks it to the man. No, I'm only going to support the development of good games."
The rest of the world, myself included, turns to them and replies, "No, you're a thief."
EDIT: This has always been an interesting debate to me.
Basically, think of it this way. Blizzard developed a game called The Lost Vikings for SNES (and other platforms) years and years ago; obviously, it's out of print. Now, some guy on eBay just got fired from his job and is really hurting just to get by. He puts his Lost Vikings cartridge on eBay for $80.
Now, pretend that you really want this game. Many people would hop on an emulator without a second thought. After all, Blizzard's got plenty of money and the game is out of print, so they wouldn't see a dime regardless. But is that really fair to the guy who wants to sell his cartridge? Now you're depriving him of a sale of his own property.
I think that far too many people only consider the retail industry, when the resale industry is equally important to our economy. eBay's resounding success is a testament to that significance. My personal belief is that we shouldn't ignore either one. Do you hate the fact that GameStop sells their used games at high prices? Then find one on eBay for cheaper and let capitalism and the free market do their thing. Just contribute to the economy. Stealing rarely, rarely ever has a reasonable justification.
I do agree that there are certain exceptions to the statement that "all piracy is bad". But I also think that people tend to always think that they fall under these exceptions, even when it is clearly not the case.
Far too many people use the "games cost too much" argument, which is so flawed I won't entertain it further here. Others say that they will always end up buying every pirated game they "like", which is equally problematic (If you played through a bad game, you still effectively stole an experience that was meant to be paid for. I've been to restaurants I didn't particularly care for, but I would never finish my entire meal and then refuse to pay for it, regardless of how little I like it.).
What I'm trying to say (and semi-failing, since I'm very tired right now) is that many pirates will always put themselves in the "exception" category. "No," they say, "I'm going to be the one who sticks it to the man. No, I'm only going to support the development of good games."
The rest of the world, myself included, turns to them and replies, "No, you're a thief."
EDIT: This has always been an interesting debate to me.
It's a very morally ambiguous question, I think. Personally, I think it's wrong, but I can certainly see the other side.Nova5 said:
Basically, think of it this way. Blizzard developed a game called The Lost Vikings for SNES (and other platforms) years and years ago; obviously, it's out of print. Now, some guy on eBay just got fired from his job and is really hurting just to get by. He puts his Lost Vikings cartridge on eBay for $80.
Now, pretend that you really want this game. Many people would hop on an emulator without a second thought. After all, Blizzard's got plenty of money and the game is out of print, so they wouldn't see a dime regardless. But is that really fair to the guy who wants to sell his cartridge? Now you're depriving him of a sale of his own property.
I think that far too many people only consider the retail industry, when the resale industry is equally important to our economy. eBay's resounding success is a testament to that significance. My personal belief is that we shouldn't ignore either one. Do you hate the fact that GameStop sells their used games at high prices? Then find one on eBay for cheaper and let capitalism and the free market do their thing. Just contribute to the economy. Stealing rarely, rarely ever has a reasonable justification.
Personally I pirated Doom 3 before it had even been released. Twice, because I accidentally deleted the torrent once. Tried it for half an hour, uninstalled it, and then went out and bought the game on release day.Nova5 said:
Two weeks later I found out that I had won a second copy of the game in a contest. I never win contests. So, yeah, thought that was kind of funny with the piracy in mind.
Generally I don't demo-pirate, though, since I know I'd probably just play through the game and never buy it.
Weak shit.
This example is beside the point anyway. You cannot get money from a dead beat, so it doesn't matter.
Most pirates can pay, but choose not to. That's the problem.
Gaming is a luxury. Being unemployed shouldn't entitle one to free convertibles, hookers and booze either. It's just that nothing can stop pirates.
This example is beside the point anyway. You cannot get money from a dead beat, so it doesn't matter.
Most pirates can pay, but choose not to. That's the problem.
How about: fans won't rip you off, but most people will.
have you seen the guys games? you could run them on a charity donated PC easily.Dana22 said:
Also... yes someone could buy a PC to run their farms accounts and it may have cost them every spare penny for the next two years. what games are they going to buy with the remaining nothing?
Dana22 said:
http://www.tempestcom.com/guide/guide.aspx?Id=194&view=3
BGAN may not be cheap or cheerful but it is many peoples one link to the rest of the world, many are bought by communities. And the games we are talking about are small enough to download without huge cost.
The Avernum games play more like the original Fallout. The graphics are simple, but there's a lot of work put into the story, characters, and gameworld.DayDark said:
If you're curious, every single one of their games has a massive demo [http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/products.html] they offer for free. It's worth your time to at least check them out.
Man, he has quite a collection, I don't even know where to start. I already have two old school Rpgs I'm trying to get through (Arcanum & Daggerfall). I'll have to read up on the individual games to see which one peaks my interest the most.Ferricyanide said:
Edit: Holy crap, he made the RPG codex angry in an interview, now I like him even more!
I just realized that this indie dev made the Geneforge games. I remember playing them when I was about 10 from Wild games and feeling clever because I managed to finish the first 2 without turning them off, and thus being able to finish each game within the demo limit.
This man deserves my money after making such a reasonable statement about piracy. Time to buy all of his games.
This man deserves my money after making such a reasonable statement about piracy. Time to buy all of his games.
Jeff has always had some very insightful ideas about game design and the industry as a whole. Among game designers I think he's very underrated. His games have always been solid and fun and while Ive only gotten the full version of Avernum 5, Ive played the demos of the others and enjoyed them all.
That gushing aside, he raises some much more balanced points than most do with piracy. In the retail world, where I was until very recently employed and had been for several years, there is the idea of 'shrink'. Indeed just about every industry from the financial sector to retail to IT has the idea that there are risks to all things and it is a cost of doing business. To the gaming industry one of the risks is that your product will be illegally distributed. Jeff's point that its not always done simply because people don't want to pay for the game is a valid one. Not everyone can purchase things online and most games more than a couple years old are difficult to find and getting anything more than five years old in a retail store basically means you have to have a good independant computer game outlet near you, which is an increasingly rare thing these days.
Bottom line: there are circumstances in which it's probably okay, but that said, a lot of the times where people do pirate, its simply out of being cheap asses, and that's not okay.
That gushing aside, he raises some much more balanced points than most do with piracy. In the retail world, where I was until very recently employed and had been for several years, there is the idea of 'shrink'. Indeed just about every industry from the financial sector to retail to IT has the idea that there are risks to all things and it is a cost of doing business. To the gaming industry one of the risks is that your product will be illegally distributed. Jeff's point that its not always done simply because people don't want to pay for the game is a valid one. Not everyone can purchase things online and most games more than a couple years old are difficult to find and getting anything more than five years old in a retail store basically means you have to have a good independant computer game outlet near you, which is an increasingly rare thing these days.
Bottom line: there are circumstances in which it's probably okay, but that said, a lot of the times where people do pirate, its simply out of being cheap asses, and that's not okay.